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  • #46
    Re: Ice Cream > Marriage

    Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
    Yes, if both food and marriage will be vestiges of the old Earth, yet food for enjoyment is retained in the absence of marriage, then there is no reason to believe marriage is more valuable or important than food. If your argument is that we won't need marriage because we will be figuratively married to God, then to apply this same reasoning with food implies it should be replaced by the "bread of life." Yet, there is both literal and figurative food on the New Earth.
    I'm amazed! Who said anything about "figuratively"? Let me quote you scripture.

    Genesis 2:24
    "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."
    1 Corinthians 6:16
    "16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh."

    1st Corinthians 6:17
    "17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit."
    1 Corinthians 15:44
    "44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."


    And then... the verse preceding - 1st Corinthians 6:15
    "Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid."

    Was not Eve a "member" of Adam's Body?

    I think maybe that's the reason why you made it in posting #1

    "... then apparently marriage is one of the least important things in life compared to desserts?"
    But this is an issue of the resurrection BODY, not of something figurative.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Ice Cream > Marriage

      Originally posted by Walls View Post
      I'm amazed! Who said anything about "figuratively"? Let me quote you scripture.
      We won't each be literally married to the same person.

      Genesis 2:24
      "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."
      1 Corinthians 6:16
      "16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh."
      I'm not sure how this negates the possibility, because surely we will be raised physically?
      「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
      撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Ice Cream > Marriage

        Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
        I don't believe this, because humans were created sexual creatures prior to the Fall. Marriage was not formed as a solution to lust, sin, or imperfection.
        They were created sexual creatures prior to the fall-God created them male and female and I see no reason why this would ever change. There will be sex in heaven and paradise.
        I guarantee that your mind is now given over to physical sex and not a heightened metaphysical sex in which physical animalistic aspects give way to an redeemed agape love
        *I think an older person who has/had been married for a long time could relate to this better than I could-i have had many older couples tell me that the real love grows over time even though the sex dies down..maybe someone like digging deeper could explain it


        Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
        According to Genesis, yes. God determined that Adam was alone, and this was solved by marriage rather than an abstract figurative relationship.
        You are only looking at the physical as "real" and then calling anything else figurative...at this point in time I dont think you will be able to crack this as it is spawned by earthly desires

        Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
        Since procreation is a secondary function of marriage, I'm not particularly concerned with this. Adam and Eve did not need to procreate for Day 6 to be "very good."
        -How is procreation a secondary function? It is entwined as the main purpose of marriage with other main purposes of marriage. Take the fertility out of heterosexual intercourse and you remove the purpose and definition of marriage-this is despite those who dont want kids or cant have them-lots of oops happen, just go to the abortion clinic and you will see this in action. Marriage protects.

        Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
        Marriage wasn't created as a prevention for fornication, but it has evolved into this after the fall. So I'd say no, we won't need to be married to prevent sin from happening.
        -Marriage was a remedy for the fall



        Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
        This isn't the foundation for my argument, but it is complimentary to the notion that we will be raised in physical human bodies and not asexual humanoid "improvements".
        -In your view a physical animal driven sexuality is perfection, but a redeemed sexuality where we enjoy each other in agape love is a dumbed down humanoid sexuality.

        Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
        We will not be literally and individually married to one Person. That would be polygamous and disturbing.
        You actually now have the answer within your own response

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Ice Cream > Marriage

          Originally posted by Karaite View Post
          I guarantee that your mind is now given over to physical sex and not a heightened metaphysical sex in which physical animalistic aspects give way to an redeemed agape love
          I actually don't care whether or not there is sex on the New Earth. If there is marriage, there's a pretty strong case for physical intimacy, but this isn't what I'm asking. I'm asking why marriage is destroyed but meaningless pleasures are not - unless marriage is less valuable than ice cream.

          You are only looking at the physical as "real" and then calling anything else figurative...at this point in time I dont think you will be able to crack this as it is spawned by earthly desires
          God created Adam, Eve, male, female, sex, and marriage before sin was introduced into the world. So I have trouble understanding why any of these things would need to be destroyed when there will be no sin in the world.

          -How is procreation a secondary function?
          Because the reason God states for the necessity of creating woman was that man was alone - not that man was a virgin.

          Take the fertility out of heterosexual intercourse and you remove the purpose and definition of marriage
          The purpose of marriage is for an individual to have a spiritual, emotional, and physical counterpart of the opposite sex. A result of marriage is children, in addition to general productivity. The primary function of marriage is not to produce children - this is why I am apathetic towards the notion of restored sexual intimacy because it is contingent upon whether or not the human-union paradigm persists in eternity.

          -Marriage was a remedy for the fall
          I disagree. Marriage was created on Day 6; the Fall took place after Day 7. Although marriage evolved to become a damage control mechanism upon the emergence of lust, greed, and hubris; the original model was not created as the marriage we have today. Post-Fall marriage involves an unequal form of government (man over woman) and is used as a means of controlling untamed physical desire.

          -In your view a physical animal driven sexuality is perfection,
          No, a God-ordained union between two individuals who are literally created for each other, and their intimacy is my view of perfection per Genesis.

          but a redeemed sexuality where we enjoy each other in agape love is a dumbed down humanoid sexuality.
          You use the phrase "redeemed sexuality" despite sex/marriage being totally absent in your scenario. This is why such perception of the resurrected involves humanoids and not actual human beings. Perfect love was created in Genesis and it was marred by sin - I do not understand why the untainted system originally designed by God needs to be destroyed completely. The tragedy of this would be that only two humans out of all of us have ever and will ever experience marriage as it was intended to be - and perhaps more tragically, there will be no child who ever experiences a life with perfect parents as God had planned.
          「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
          撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Ice Cream > Marriage

            Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
            Since we will still be able to eat in the afterlife (apparently for enjoyment rather than survival), yet won't have marriages, then apparently marriage is one of the least important things in life compared to desserts?
            Will there be chocolate ice cream? That's what I'm worried about. Or will it all be boring vanilla? I don't want Him to wash all the ice cream as white as snow....

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Ice Cream > Marriage

              So now for my more serious answer now that I have read the thread.
              Everything God created shows His glory, but I think we only get small hints of it because we are not seeing anything AS it was created, but are seeing it AFTER the Fall. But still, you can see something of a poet in his poems, something of a painter in his paintings. Sometimes we can feel we know something of the poet or the painter because we sense it and connect with him by examining his creation. We can feel some of what he experienced as he created it - if he was inconsolably sad, or joyful, or confused, etc. We feel like we actually connect in some way with a mans soul through his art/creation. We see something, some glimmer, of him in his creation.

              Adam saw everything God had created.
              There were chipmunk(s).
              There were rabbit(s).
              There were bear(s).
              There were horse(s).
              There were Adam(.....?!)
              Where was one like him??
              Why was he alone in a way that all the other created things were not?
              So God created another one of Adam.
              God made every living thing to bring forth of its' own kind.
              So the Creator created things that could create through their union.

              Now here is where the mystery and awe of it all go over my head in so many places, but God is making sons for Himself through Jesus.
              Jesus was the firstborn, and just as Adam created sons out of his union with Eve, Jesus creates sons out of His union with His bride, us.
              So we are seeing some glimpse of the Creator in His creation.
              He is telling a story and it is about Himself.
              He wants to connect with us in the same way that a poet is trying to connect with and find one man who can feel what his soul is feeling when he labors to explain what it is he is feeling.
              If I were to go on, it would turn into too many pages, so I guess I'll stop there and go get into my jammies.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Ice Cream > Marriage

                When I read the Bible I see God as the main topic, not man. If God said, "it was not good that man be alone.." after creating all the other animals of the world, and there was no help meet found for Adam. Why? You can not have true fellowship with someone unless they are of the same class or just like you. I see God being in the same predicament as man. He had already created the angels, cherubim and the like, but they were not made in his image or likeness. The Bible is about God bringing forth a being made liken unto himself so he could share his feeling, joys, knowledge, and above all his love with. Surely we can understand this in our own husbands wife's, and children as we love our family in this life. I am sure when the Lord looks at us he sees apart of himself in us, and it makes him smile or even laugh in how sometimes we do the things he does, just like how we see our children sometimes act like their parents, and it makes us laugh.

                Vanilla with chocolate topping, and nuts

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Ice Cream > Marriage

                  Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
                  I actually don't care whether or not there is sex on the New Earth. If there is marriage, there's a pretty strong case for physical intimacy, but this isn't what I'm asking. I'm asking why marriage is destroyed but meaningless pleasures are not - unless marriage is less valuable than ice cream.
                  -I dont know what you are talking about when you state "marriage destroyed" "useless pleasures" and then state ice cream-could you please expand. If i am understanding yoiu correctly you think there will be fine dining in resurrection?

                  Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
                  God created Adam, Eve, male, female, sex, and marriage before sin was introduced into the world. So I have trouble understanding why any of these things would need to be destroyed when there will be no sin in the world.
                  God did not create marriage as we know it in Eden. A covenant has to be consummated in order for it to be valid. there is no evdence of Adam and Eve consummating a marriage. Only after the fall do we see that Adam "knew" his wife. Again our sex and sexuality wont be destroyed-it will be redeemed.

                  Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
                  Because the reason God states for the necessity of creating woman was that man was alone - not that man was a virgin.
                  -I dont know how this pertains to the question

                  Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
                  The purpose of marriage is for an individual to have a spiritual, emotional, and physical counterpart of the opposite sex. A result of marriage is children, in addition to general productivity. The primary function of marriage is not to produce children - this is why I am apathetic towards the notion of restored sexual intimacy because it is contingent upon whether or not the human-union paradigm persists in eternity.
                  -Children(fertility) are just as primary to marriage as the rest of your points-take the children(fertility) part away and the bibles stance on premarital sex and marriage fall apart rather quickly.

                  Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
                  I disagree. Marriage was created on Day 6; the Fall took place after Day 7. Although marriage evolved to become a damage control mechanism upon the emergence of lust, greed, and hubris; the original model was not created as the marriage we have today. Post-Fall marriage involves an unequal form of government (man over woman) and is used as a means of controlling untamed physical desire.
                  Adam and Eve were created on day 6-the fall would not have taken place during or after day 7 as Adam never entered into God's rest-or we would not be even talking about this right now.
                  The days are theological and not literal

                  Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
                  No, a God-ordained union between two individuals who are literally created for each other, and their intimacy is my view of perfection per Genesis.
                  Which will continue when our bodies are redeemed at resurrection-but with the whole body of Christ. I dont think our roles will change either, Adam was created first and then eve was created for Adam. Adam named Eve and in ancient Hebrew when someone names someone it shows authority. When Adam and Eve were disobedient to God, He addressed Adam first.
                  We will have our roles redeemed also

                  Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
                  You use the phrase "redeemed sexuality" despite sex/marriage being totally absent in your scenario. This is why such perception of the resurrected involves humanoids and not actual human beings. Perfect love was created in Genesis and it was marred by sin - I do not understand why the untainted system originally designed by God needs to be destroyed completely. The tragedy of this would be that only two humans out of all of us have ever and will ever experience marriage as it was intended to be - and perhaps more tragically, there will be no child who ever experiences a life with perfect parents as God had planned.
                  - Not destroyed but redeemed. I dont understand why you go to the extreme of destroyed or annihilated-Jesus did not destroy the Law-he redeemed the Law by fulfilling it
                  -I have four little ones that are in much better hands than I could ever offer.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Ice Cream > Marriage

                    Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
                    Eve was created because "It is not good for the man to be alone" first and then to help with managing the Earth second. And after Eve was created, it became "very good" - which means the problem had been solved in that instant, rather than having begun to make progress. So this begs the question of why it is not good for man to be alone in perfection pre-fall, yet good for man to be alone in perfection post-resurrection - and why God didn't simply create humans without the necessity for a companion in the first place. If, for example, marriage was created as a learning process so that we will be ready for the afterlife, what becomes of those who have never been married?
                    This is then a question about perfection. Can a perfect being change? God is perfect, does He change? Some state categorically that a perfect being doesn't change, because otherwise it wasn't perfect. However my understanding of perfection is different - we go from glory into glory. We are perfect and being made perfect. Woman and Man were ALL about relationships. Can a relationship deepen? Of course, over time. IOW Just as Adam discovers the world and discovers what he can do, so they mutually discover one another. This I think will also be true of our relationship with God. Sin which hampers and blinds will be removed, but I don't think we just then know everything. We have an eternity of discovery.
                    Very Good doesn't mean an end, but a beginning.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Ice Cream > Marriage

                      Originally posted by Karaite View Post
                      -I dont know what you are talking about when you state "marriage destroyed" "useless pleasures" and then state ice cream-could you please expand. If i am understanding yoiu correctly you think there will be fine dining in resurrection?
                      You first have a problem to resolve in that you think we will be living in heaven - this obviously colours your thinking and understanding, just as the reverse is true for those who believe paradise will be on earth.

                      God did not create marriage as we know it in Eden. A covenant has to be consummated in order for it to be valid. there is no evdence of Adam and Eve consummating a marriage. Only after the fall do we see that Adam "knew" his wife. Again our sex and sexuality wont be destroyed-it will be redeemed.
                      Gen 2:23 Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."
                      Gen 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
                      Gen 2:25 And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.

                      Here Adam clearly states that they become one flesh. So this evidences the fact that not only were they of one flesh, but that they were intimate becoming one flesh. Also Jesus quoted this verse here:
                      Mat 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female,
                      Mat 19:5 and said, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?
                      Mat 19:6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate."

                      This shows that Jesus considered the two joined together by God from the beginning.

                      Possibly pre-fall Eve was capable of controlling when her body would release the ovum for fertilisation. So she didn't have any periods - until post fall.
                      What does redeeming our sex and sexuality mean except that it is restored to how it was BEFORE. Hence Aviyah's continual pointing back to the situation preFall.

                      -I dont know how this pertains to the question
                      The purpose of a woman isn't procreation in entirety, but firstly as someone so that Adam wouldn't be alone - IOW for relationship first. Procreation is a bonus.

                      -Children(fertility) are just as primary to marriage as the rest of your points-take the children(fertility) part away and the bibles stance on premarital sex and marriage fall apart rather quickly.
                      No they don't. Children aren't the central part to a marriage. It is basing a marriage on such a premise which leads to all sorts of problems. The central part to a marriage is that we are also shown between Jesus and His Bride - which is relationship. Children then is bonus.

                      Adam and Eve were created on day 6-the fall would not have taken place during or after day 7 as Adam never entered into God's rest-or we would not be even talking about this right now. The days are theological and not literal
                      Actually God did enter His rest on the 7th day and they hadn't sinned yet. God was separate from them when they sinned. It may have been on the seventh day in the evening as it says:
                      Gen 3:8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
                      The cool of the day is either early morning or evening. Due to context this would suggest AFTER day 6 and thus either day 7 or a later day. The days are literal, but that is an argument for another thread. Regardless, they were joined by God BEFORE the Fall.

                      Which will continue when our bodies are redeemed at resurrection-but with the whole body of Christ. I dont think our roles will change either, Adam was created first and then eve was created for Adam. Adam named Eve and in ancient Hebrew when someone names someone it shows authority. When Adam and Eve were disobedient to God, He addressed Adam first.
                      We will have our roles redeemed also
                      Again don't get confused about what happened preFall with post Fall -
                      Gen 2:23 Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."
                      In this verse we see the man does use a name for the woman "woman" which basically means he clarifies us as himself. This is in contrast to what happens postFall when Adam gives her the name of Eve. This naming is an effect of sin.

                      - Not destroyed but redeemed. I dont understand why you go to the extreme of destroyed or annihilated-Jesus did not destroy the Law-he redeemed the Law by fulfilling it.
                      But removing marriage means it is gone and NOT redeemed.
                      Where I do question Aviyah though is that God joins people together in the Genesis account. We are joined with Jesus in the marriage. This is not a physical union but a relational one. As the main purpose of Man and Woman being united was relational, then this suggests a shift in the need of man for woman in this way. We will also have countless brothers and sisters - so will there be a need for an exclusive relationship of the kind the Man and the Woman had? IOW was Man and Woman meant to be exclusive preFall as they are seen postFall. This is an unknown.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Ice Cream > Marriage

                        Originally posted by Curtis View Post
                        When I read the Bible I see God as the main topic, not man. If God said, "it was not good that man be alone.." after creating all the other animals of the world, and there was no help meet found for Adam. Why? You can not have true fellowship with someone unless they are of the same class or just like you. I see God being in the same predicament as man. He had already created the angels, cherubim and the like, but they were not made in his image or likeness. The Bible is about God bringing forth a being made liken unto himself so he could share his feeling, joys, knowledge, and above all his love with. Surely we can understand this in our own husbands wife's, and children as we love our family in this life. I am sure when the Lord looks at us he sees apart of himself in us, and it makes him smile or even laugh in how sometimes we do the things he does, just like how we see our children sometimes act like their parents, and it makes us laugh.

                        Vanilla with chocolate topping, and nuts
                        I take exception with a part of this post.
                        You are wrong.
                        The fact that you put chocolate topping on the vanilla ice cream is just trying to hide the dullness of the vanilla ice cream. This is ridiculous. Why not just start with the chocolate ice cream? Vanilla ice cream is not biblical and you have given no verses. So why should we listen to you when you say, vanilla ice cream? It is just your opinion.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Ice Cream > Marriage

                          Originally posted by awestruckchild View Post
                          I take exception with a part of this post.
                          You are wrong.
                          The fact that you put chocolate topping on the vanilla ice cream is just trying to hide the dullness of the vanilla ice cream. This is ridiculous. Why not just start with the chocolate ice cream? Vanilla ice cream is not biblical and you have given no verses. So why should we listen to you when you say, vanilla ice cream? It is just your opinion.
                          Psa 147:17 He casteth forth his ice like morsels: who can stand before his cold?

                          I think the Lord has the very best ice cream available for those who overcome, it will cause us to go weak in the knees.
                          I hope there is no Neapolitan, but there probably will, since God is into colors.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Ice Cream > Marriage

                            Originally posted by Curtis View Post
                            Psa 147:17 He casteth forth his ice like morsels: who can stand before his cold?

                            I think the Lord has the very best ice cream available for those who overcome, it will cause us to go weak in the knees.
                            I hope there is no Neapolitan, but there probably will, since God is into colors.
                            And here you digress even FURTHER. Do you mean to say that we should believe this verse has to do with brain freeze??!

                            Sorry aviyah

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Ice Cream > Marriage

                              Of course, none of what will come on "new earth in the context of marriage has any application here and now. Whatever marriage will be in the olam haba, marriage > ice creme in the existence and life God gave us on this earth, and His Word validates and confirms that, and also the Bible is clear on what God's expectations are for his people in regard to marriage and the act of consummation of marriage.
                              Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Ice Cream > Marriage

                                Having a intimate relationship with someone is the principle part of marriage. We can not get any closer if we are in Christ.

                                Comment

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