baptism into death

[Aijalon]

τοῦ βαπτίσματος εἰς τὸν θάνατον
tou baptismatos into ton thanaton
("baptism into death")

This verse was posted on screen prior to a baptism which took place at my church - Romans 6:4, there are a number of English ways to read it.

Context: Romans 5:21 > 6:7

21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin. (NASB)

Before breaking out a heavy load of Greek, here is the way in which I asked myself about the different ways to read verse 4. I have inserted dashes to assist into two reading for emphasis sake:

1) Therefore we have been buried with him - through baptism - into death
2) Therefore we have been buried with him through - baptism into death.

As I thought of what these different readings could imply... I realized I would need to get deeper into the Greek. Without any conception of what I would find, I have become aware that at times, articles "a" and "the" are omitted by the translators that can clarify things for us.

The reason I have posted the NASB above, is that it has used a sort of "clean up" method in omitting some Greek articles that appear, perhaps "unnecessary" in English. But I ask: "if read aloud in the churches of Rome, should we not read with them also?" (meaning every Greek word).

The Greek reads, word for word:

[we were baptized] [therefore] [of/into him] [by/through] [the/one] [baptism] [into] [the/one] [death].
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/6-4.htm

The blue is omitted by the NASB. To diagnose the reason why the translators omitted the articles, I suggest that NASB inserts context as it appears to them to defining personal baptism (my guess of their view - a baptism perhaps either by water, or spirit, but in either case, related to our personal baptism event).

However, the NASB has changed some terminology, and mingled some ideas that were not being asserted in the text.

A literal translation of the rest of verse 4-5:
that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk. 5For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, [so] also we shall be of the rising again;

Here the understanding is quite clear that there are two things which liken us to Christ, his death, and bodily resurrection (Gospel fundamentals). Our newness of life is tied to his resurrection. It is what gives us the right or ability to walk in newness of life. The word for newness [2538. kainotés] is this akin to "eternal life".

Hypothesis:
'the baptism' and 'the death' are a single and certain baptism, defined as Christ's singular death. His one single death is applicable to the group of people to whom Paul writes (the we). Therefore Paul is not speaking of each of us in an individual sense. He speaks of us as a whole, not all individually. (he does not say either: "we each were", or "every one of us"). The Baptism of Repentance (John's Baptism), of which Jesus Christ ceremonially participated and said was necessary for righteousness is then - in spiritual terms - a baptism which symbolizes nothing more than faith in Christ's ministry (which was his death).


Conclusion:
The assertion is often made, that Romans 6:1-7 are relating Christ's sinless life, as a fundamental similarity (a requirement) with respect to our day to day living. This is false. The passage simply asserts that our "newness" or "refreshing" of life, is will resemble Christ's Glory in resurrection, or, that our hope of resurrection is assured to be the same as Christ's resurrection.


Discussion:
Romans 6:8-11 demonstrate the principle of a future life:
8And if we died with Christ, we believe that we also shall live with him,

(i.e your hope of new life is in living with Christ in bodily resurrection)

9knowing that Christ, having been raised up out of the dead, doth no more die, death over him hath no more lordship; 10for in that he died, to the sin he died once, and in that he liveth, he liveth to God; 11so also ye, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to the sin, and living to God in Jesus Christ our Lord.

What does it mean in practicality to reckon (consider) yourself to be dead to sin? It means quite simply that you should regard yourself with the same mindset which Christ is regarded, eternally alive, and sinless. Does this mean you have attained sinlessness in your every day living. Absolutely not. It is simply encouragement to keep your mind on the eternal, on everlasting life.

Many terrible conclusions can be drawn from the idea that Christians live a sinless life after believing/conversion. The worst, is the accusation that a transgression causes loss of salvation. Another is that our 'walking' in this present life is necessarily either glorified or powerful. If indeed we are always glorified and sinless, what sense does it make to preach the Beatitudes?

We are not told our lives are sinless, not at all. Eph 4 says:
22ye are to put off concerning the former behaviour the old man, that is corrupt according to the desires of the deceit, 23and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24and to put on the new man, which, according to God, was created in righteousness and kindness of the truth.

It is not then about behavior attaining perfection, but simply a mental state of mind which accepts our "new" identity. It is really nothing more than mediating on Godliness, which inspires truthfulness. It is a contrast of either deceitfulness/truthfulness. {note the similarity between Paul's epistles and John's: lie/darkness, vs. truth/light}

Do not make baptism about a personal death to 'ourselves' because we don't have "two selves", Christ died to set you, yourself, your normal self, FREE. Not free-of sin, but free from a sin-master. Paul personifies sin as a master, it is therefore Christ as master from whom you now will receive wages (which are resurrection to new life).

"The wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23) is to do with the concept of the servant receiving his wages from the master. If sin is your master, you can only receive death, but if Jesus your master, eternal life.

(In that time frame a servant could be set free from slavery, but upon freedom he was without any property or much rights, and would be required to set up a contract by which he would then be paid small wages for his labor. In effect, sin being a master is the hopeless situation for which slaves of the day were in, unable to pay-off their debts for housing and food - perpetually enslaved to the same master, but for 'wages'. A sin master pays in death. To bet set free from the sin master is to be liberated from an 'eternal' cycle of death)

Jesus being Lord of your life has nothing to do with sinlessness, or flawless servants, but simply means that you have a contract (Jesus death) to receive different wages. Baptism is transferring your ownership over to Christ, instead of a master of sin.

[episkopos]

Re: τοῦ βαπτίσματος εἰς τὸν θάνατον

Hypothesis:
'the baptism' and 'the death' are a single and certain baptism, defined as Christ's singular death. His one single death is applicable to the group of people to whom Paul writes (the we). Therefore Paul is not speaking of each of us in an individual sense. He speaks of us as a whole, not all individually. (he does not say either: "we each were", or "every one of us"). The Baptism of Repentance (John's Baptism), of which Jesus Christ ceremonially participated and said was necessary for righteousness is then - in spiritual terms - a baptism which symbolizes nothing more than faith in Christ's ministry (which was his death).

We are not baptized into a death of a Person that does not affect our life. WE are to be dead in Christ. So the baptism is not about what Jesus did but about what WE are doing.

Rom_6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

This means we are disconnected from our previous life of the flesh in order to be raised to new life according to the Spirit. So then we die WITH Christ so that the flesh and sin has no longer power over us.

Conclusion:
The assertion is often made, that Romans 6:1-7 are relating Christ's sinless life, as a fundamental similarity (a requirement) with respect to our day to day living. This is false. The passage simply asserts that our "newness" or "refreshing" of life, is will resemble Christ's Glory in resurrection, or, that our hope of resurrection is assured to be the same as Christ's resurrection.

Actually this is false. Newness of life does not mean life as before. Otherwise it is not new...and certainly not rooted in holiness. But we are called to die with Christ to sin and be made alive to walk by His resurrection power. So then death and sin no longer have dominion over us...although our earthly bodies decay and die. Rather we walk as Jesus walked in the flesh...but according to the Spirit. If we do this then we will never sin again. There is no sin in Christ. If we want to sin then we will come out of Christ and take up the power of the flesh once again. The devil works overtime to fool Christ-abiders back into the flesh. He will do anything to make this happen. And he is very successful at it.

We are called to overcome as Jesus overcame...through His power.

[Aijalon]

Re: τοῦ βαπτίσματος εἰς τὸν θάνατον

the baptism is not about what Jesus did but about what WE are doing.

I expected this response from you. However, in the face of the presentation I just gave, I find this statement of yours very silly.

Rom_6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

You see that Paul speaks of believers here collectively, and that he speaks of Christ's physical death, not any personal "death" of our own. I pointed out that Verse 4 clearly shows "the death" which is in mind is Christ's singular death. Your reasoning here does not address the manner in which Paul speaks of "sin" as a master who pays wages to us.

In any regard, you have not done anything to show that my analysis of the text is incorrect. This is not what you "feel" is right, this just about what the text says, and only that. The title of the thread was in Greek for a reason.

Regards

A

[petrobb]

Re: τοῦ βαπτίσματος εἰς τὸν θάνατον

I expected this response from you. However, in the face of the presentation I just gave, I find this statement of yours very silly.


You see that Paul speaks of believers here collectively, and that he speaks of Christ's physical death, not any personal "death" of our own. I pointed out that Verse 4 clearly shows "the death" which is in mind is Christ's singular death. Your reasoning here does not address the manner in which Paul speaks of "sin" as a master who pays wages to us.

In any regard, you have not done anything to show that my analysis of the text is incorrect. This is not what you "feel" is right, this just about what the text says, and only that. The title of the thread was in Greek for a reason.

Regards

A

it is true that when we were immersed into His death by the Holy Spirit it was into HIS death. It is into Him as the One Who died. It is a sharing in His death. We have died with Christ. Nevertheless we cannot experience this without the Holy Spirit in some sense working death in us. We partake with Him in His death. This has two consequences among others. It means that as far as the laws accusations are concerned we are dead so that the law can no longer accuse us.. But it also means that we are to see ourselves as dead to sin, with no right to live in sin any longer, and with sin no longer having rights over us.

Does this mean we never sin? Of course not. If we say that we have not sinned we make God a liar. But it does mean that we are to acknowledge that sin is now an intruder which we need to keep at a distance.

And it means that we have been raised with Christ to live the Christ life, with Jesus Christ living through us by means of the new life He gives us by His Spirit. We see our old life as dead. We see our new life in Christ as the true life which we should be living. And we allow Him to live that life through us because we are His body..

.

[cuban]

Re: τοῦ βαπτίσματος εἰς τὸν θάνατον

Please forgive the snip, but I'm attempting to make this readable for those that choose to read it.


Firstly, the proper context for Romans 6:4 begins much earlier than what you have suggested. I daresay as early as Romans 4:16, if not 3:21, where we are presented the plan of salvation by example which is:
Justification by Faith, as confirmed by the testimony of Abraham. Chapter 5 then shows us the results of this declaration of innocence which is peace with God through Jesus Christ.

With this in view, one can begin at Romans 5:12 where we are shown what Christ's atonement was ultimately accomplished for ( complete reconciliation ) and that this is available to ALL men who believe. The Good News.


And so we are properly introduced to chapter 6.

Naturally, this Justification produces Sanctification because True Faith produces True Life. Justification for Peace, Sanctification for POWER.

Christ's power over sin so that we may Overcome, UNTIL glorification.

With that said, although Paul may be speaking corporately of our baptism into Christ's death - salvation is necessarily SINGULAR.
None are baptized into His death and burial corporately; but this is a personal & individual experience where the UNIQUE old man must be put to death, being SLAYED by the Holy Spirit.

Hypothesis:
'the baptism' and 'the death' are a single and certain baptism, defined as Christ's singular death. His one single death is applicable to the group of people to whom Paul writes (the we). Therefore Paul is not speaking of each of us in an individual sense. He speaks of us as a whole, not all individually. (he does not say either: "we each were", or "every one of us"). The Baptism of Repentance (John's Baptism), of which Jesus Christ ceremonially participated and said was necessary for righteousness is then - in spiritual terms - a baptism which symbolizes nothing more than faith in Christ's ministry (which was his death).

Rom 6:1 What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 Let it not be! We who died to sin, how shall we still live in it?
Rom 6:3 Or are you ignorant that all who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Rom 6:4 Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, so also we should walk in newness of life.

In other words, as we are ALREADY buried with Him, then just as He was raised from the dead by the Father, We should NOW walk in that newness of life He has provided.
HIS newness of life that we have NOW, by faith.

Rom 6:5 For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, so also shall we be in the resurrection,
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be nullified, so that we no longer serve sin.

Nullified means RENDERED FULLY INOPERATIVE ! This does not speak to future glorification as verse 5 does, for we have ALREADY died with Him and the body of sin is NULLIFIED NOW. The old man is dead NOW.

We are to no longer serve sin... NOW. NOT After glorification... Obviously.


Accordingly:

Rom 6:7 For the one that died has been justified from sin.

Justified by the Judge of all the earth signifies being regarded-as-innocent! Free from sin's mastery over us and its condemnation! Why? Because of our having been immersed into Christ, which is death.
Only law-breakers are under the law...and the law-breaker is dead... or he should be.

Sin and death cannot hold one who has died with Christ and is walking in resurrection power in HIM.

Conclusion:
The assertion is often made, that Romans 6:1-7 are relating Christ's sinless life, as a fundamental similarity (a requirement) with respect to our day to day living. This is false. The passage simply asserts that our "newness" or "refreshing" of life, is will resemble Christ's Glory in resurrection, or, that our hope of resurrection is assured to be the same as Christ's resurrection.

Your conclusion is simply a half-truth. One is a slave to one's master; either sin unto death or righteousness unto life.

Needless to say, there can be no meaningful discussion of Romans 6 without continuing on through into Romans 8...
which destroys any notion contrary to the TOTAL fulfillment of the righteous demands of the law, day to day.

Sinless, in Christ. Sinless, in the Spirit.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to flesh, but according to Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus set me free from the law of sin and of death.
Rom 8:3 For the Law being powerless, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 so that the righteous demand of the Law might be fulfilled in us, those not walking according to flesh, but according to Spirit.

Rom 8:5 For the ones that are according to flesh mind the things of the flesh. And the ones according to Spirit mind the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace;
Rom 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity towards God; for it is not being subjected to the Law of God, for neither can it be.
Rom 8:8 And those being in the flesh are not able to please God.

Rom 8:9 But you are not in flesh, but in Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, this one is not His.

Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, the body indeed is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of the One having raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One having raised the Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies live through the indwelling of His Spirit in you.

Rom 8:12 So, then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to flesh,
Rom 8:13 for if you live according to flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Discussion:
Romans 6:8-11 demonstrate the principle of a future life:
8And if we died with Christ, we believe that we also shall live with him,

(i.e your hope of new life is in living with Christ in bodily resurrection)

9knowing that Christ, having been raised up out of the dead, doth no more die, death over him hath no more lordship; 10for in that he died, to the sin he died once, and in that he liveth, he liveth to God; 11so also ye, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to the sin, and living to God in Jesus Christ our Lord.

What does it mean in practicality to reckon (consider) yourself to be dead to sin? It means quite simply that you should regard yourself with the same mindset which Christ is regarded, eternally alive, and sinless. Does this mean you have attained sinlessness in your every day living. Absolutely not. It is simply encouragement to keep your mind on the eternal, on everlasting life.

Many terrible conclusions can be drawn from the idea that Christians live a sinless life after believing/conversion. The worst, is the accusation that a transgression causes loss of salvation. Another is that our 'walking' in this present life is necessarily either glorified or powerful. If indeed we are always glorified and sinless, what sense does it make to preach the Beatitudes?

Interestingly, we see admonitions here that apply to us individually, for one cannot claim to have been enticed of sin if not by their own lusts.
Therefore, although our blessed hope is of course indicated, the contextual theme is not solely based upon a collective view of a future glorification.

And you have appropriately failed to continue on through to verse 14.

Rom 6:12 Then do not let sin reign in your mortal body, to obey it in its lusts. <---- NOW.
Rom 6:13 Neither present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as one living from the dead, and your members instruments of righteousness to God.
Rom 6:14 For your sin shall not lord it over you, for you are not under Law, but under grace.

Reckoning ourselves dead to sin is an appraisal of our conscience in relation to the works of the flesh. Can this be done while living in sin? No.

This is far from an intellectual exercise or a show of cognitive prowess that can be reduced to a mere, "consideration". It is indeed practical; for the old man must actually DIE.

This is a DEEP and SPIRITUAL experience, which is intended to result in ACTION and CHANGE. It is SUPERNATURAL; it defies logic and is contrary to reason, for it demands SURRENDER and DEATH.

We enter into this by Faith, and live for God in Christ.

Simply regarding oneself with the same mindset as Christ is foolishness without actually living from that place of provision.

None can attain sinlessness, but Christ did; if we have truly died with Him then we are alive in Him and all that He is, with a hope of future glorification in His presence forever.

We are not told our lives are sinless, not at all. Eph 4 says:
22ye are to put off concerning the former behaviour the old man, that is corrupt according to the desires of the deceit, 23and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24and to put on the new man, which, according to God, was created in righteousness and kindness of the truth.

It is not then about behavior attaining perfection, but simply a mental state of mind which accepts our "new" identity. It is really nothing more than mediating on Godliness, which inspires truthfulness. It is a contrast of either deceitfulness/truthfulness. {note the similarity between Paul's epistles and John's: lie/darkness, vs. truth/light}

Nothing more than mental gymnastics that profess a form of godliness while denying the power thereof.
Another verse taken irresponsibly out of context...And, yet again, the erroneous assumption that preachers of resurrection life seek to attain perfection by their behavior.

It is finished, we can step into HIS righteousness where there is no sin. Do you believe?

Do not make baptism about a personal death to 'ourselves' because we don't have "two selves", Christ died to set you, yourself, your normal self, FREE. Not free-of sin, but free from a sin-master. Paul personifies sin as a master, it is therefore Christ as master from whom you now will receive wages (which are resurrection to new life).

"The wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23) is to do with the concept of the servant receiving his wages from the master. If sin is your master, you can only receive death, but if Jesus your master, eternal life.

(In that time frame a servant could be set free from slavery, but upon freedom he was without any property or much rights, and would be required to set up a contract by which he would then be paid small wages for his labor. In effect, sin being a master is the hopeless situation for which slaves of the day were in, unable to pay-off their debts for housing and food - perpetually enslaved to the same master, but for 'wages'. A sin master pays in death. To bet set free from the sin master is to be liberated from an 'eternal' cycle of death)

Jesus being Lord of your life has nothing to do with sinlessness, or flawless servants, but simply means that you have a contract (Jesus death) to receive different wages. Baptism is transferring your ownership over to Christ, instead of a master of sin.

And the servant indeed reaps what he sows...

[mailmandan]

Re: τοῦ βαπτίσματος εἰς τὸν θάνατον

The devil works overtime to fool Christ-abiders back into the flesh. He will do anything to make this happen. And he is very successful at it.

The devil works overtime to blind the minds of those who don't believe the gospel. He will do anything to make this happen and is very successful at it. 2 Corinthians 4:4 - In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

We are called to overcome as Jesus overcame...through His power.

1 John 4:4 - You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

1 John 5:4 - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

[Aijalon]

Re: τοῦ βαπτίσματος εἰς τὸν θάνατον

[QUOTE=cuban;3126879]

Naturally, this Justification produces Sanctification because True Faith produces True Life. Justification for Peace, Sanctification for POWER.

On which scripture are you basing this?

With that said, although Paul may be speaking corporately of our baptism into Christ's death - salvation is necessarily SINGULAR.

Ok.

None are baptized into His death and burial corporately;

Except you just agreed that Paul was speaking in a corporate manner......

but this is a personal & individual experience where the UNIQUE old man must be put to death, being SLAYED by the Holy Spirit.

You changed the discussion of Romans 6 as presented, to a different discussion of personal salvation. Of course our salvation is personal. I'm simply speaking of Romans 6.

Rom 6:1 What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 Let it not be! We who died to sin, how shall we still live in it?
Rom 6:3 Or are you ignorant that all who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Rom 6:4 Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, so also we should walk in newness of life.

In other words, as we are ALREADY buried with Him, then just as He was raised from the dead by the Father, We should NOW walk in that newness of life He has provided.
HIS newness of life that we have NOW, by faith.

Rom 6:5 For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, so also shall we be in the resurrection,
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be nullified, so that we no longer serve sin.

Nullified means RENDERED FULLY INOPERATIVE ! This does not speak to future glorification as verse 5 does, for we have ALREADY died with Him and the body of sin is NULLIFIED NOW. The old man is dead NOW.

We are to no longer serve sin... NOW. NOT After glorification... Obviously.

Although you emphasize "NOW" I cannot discuss your view unless you address my assessment of the Greek, which conveys the context of a future glorification. That is how I see the Greek, and if you don't wish to discuss Greek, but want to emphasize your particular translation (would be nice if you said it was KJV or not, but I assume it is based on your avatar)

Your conclusion is simply a half-truth. One is a slave to one's master; either sin unto death or righteousness unto life.

The wages paid by the master (sin) are death and only death. The wages paid by Jesus Christ to those of faith are eternal life and only life. There is no "half-truth" in what I said.

Needless to say, there can be no meaningful discussion of Romans 6 without continuing on through into Romans 8...
which destroys any notion contrary to the TOTAL fulfillment of the righteous demands of the law, day to day.

Where is "day to day" in the scripture? And if "day to day" applies, then "moment to moment" would apply also, yes? So then any infraction of "law" would mean you are hell bound. ANY. Why do wish to live by laws?

Sinless, in Christ. Sinless, in the Spirit.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to flesh, but according to Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus set me free from the law of sin and of death.
Rom 8:3 For the Law being powerless, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 so that the righteous demand of the Law might be fulfilled in us, those not walking according to flesh, but according to Spirit.

Only so much can be said so quickly, no one is excluding Romans 8.

But in any case, you have reversed what it means to be free from the Law, so now you have made being saved about following the law all over again. Do you not see a big and incomparable difference between the Law of Moses and the Law of the Spirit. The righteousness of the law is of NO VALUE.


Please respond with a Greek analysis, and we could go further.

Blessings

[cuban]

Re: τοῦ βαπτίσματος εἰς τὸν θάνατον

Naturally, this Justification produces Sanctification because True Faith produces True Life. Justification for Peace, Sanctification for POWER.

On which scripture are you basing this?

On the entirety of the proper contextual theme that leads up to the central issue being addressed in Romans chapter 6.

Rom 6:1 What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 Let it not be! We who died to sin, how shall we still live in it?

With that said, although Paul may be speaking corporately of our baptism into Christ's death - salvation is necessarily SINGULAR.
None are baptized into His death and burial corporately;

Ok.
Except you just agreed that Paul was speaking in a corporate manner......

I've already addressed it if you care to read. Christ's singular death applying to us corporately doesn't invalidate the individual experience of death, burial and resurrection.

but this is a personal & individual experience where the UNIQUE old man must be put to death, being SLAYED by the Holy Spirit.

You changed the discussion of Romans 6 as presented, to a different discussion of personal salvation. Of course our salvation is personal. I'm simply speaking of Romans 6.

No I haven't. What I have done is place the context of Romans 6 in proper view so that we may legitimately discuss it.

Paul isn't just preaching of our corporate baptism of death, there is much more meat to slice off the bone of which the central focus consists of.
I believe I've shared enough here for us to continue, unless you disagree with my presentation of the corresponding context.

Respectfully, it doesn't get much more personal than an exhortation to no longer serve sin by way of immersion into Christ's death. A true application of the provision we have in grace through Christ is individually realized and manifested.

And I would rightly proclaim that this is indeed a salvational issue.

Rom 6:1 What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 Let it not be! We who died to sin, how shall we still live in it?
Rom 6:3 Or are you ignorant that all who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Rom 6:4 Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, so also we should walk in newness of life.

In other words, as we are ALREADY buried with Him, then just as He was raised from the dead by the Father, We should NOW walk in that newness of life He has provided.
HIS newness of life that we have NOW, by faith.

Rom 6:5 For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, so also shall we be in the resurrection,
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be nullified, so that we no longer serve sin.

Nullified means RENDERED FULLY INOPERATIVE ! This does not speak to future glorification as verse 5 does, for we have ALREADY died with Him and the body of sin is NULLIFIED NOW. The old man is dead NOW.

We are to no longer serve sin... NOW. NOT After glorification... Obviously.

Although you emphasize "NOW" I cannot discuss your view unless you address my assessment of the Greek, which conveys the context of a future glorification. That is how I see the Greek, and if you don't wish to discuss Greek, but want to emphasize your particular translation (would be nice if you said it was KJV or not, but I assume it is based on your avatar)

I've already told you in a previous thread the version I quote from, but a simple copy and paste would reveal the same to you.

I don't even read Greek, but do not need to in order to see your assessment is in error and out of context.


Here is the literal of the literal for you:

"we-were-entombed-together with-Him through baptism into the death that as-even was-roused Christ of-dead-ones through the glory of-the-Father thus also we in newness of-life should-be-walking."

SHOULD-BE-WALKING -----> NOW.

G4043
- Original: περιπατέω
- Transliteration: Peripateo
- Phonetic: per-ee-pat-eh'-o
- Definition:
1. to walk
a. to make one's way, progress; to make due use of opportunities
b. Hebrew for, to live
1. to regulate one's life
2. to conduct one's self
3. to pass one's life

This is the same "should-be-walking" in Romans 13:13, Ephesians 2:10 and Ephesians 4:17

Rom 13:12 The night is far gone, and the day has drawn near; then let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the weapons of the light.
Rom 13:13 Let us walk becomingly, as in the day, not in carousings and drunkennesses, not in co-habitation and lustful acts, not in fighting and envy.
Rom 13:14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not make forethought of the flesh, for its lusts.


Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not of works, that not anyone should boast;
Eph 2:10 for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God before prepared that we should walk in them.

Eph 2:11 Because of this, remember that you, the nations, were then in the flesh (those having been called Uncircumcision by those having been called Circumcision in the flesh made by hands)
Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers of the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Eph 2:13 But now, in Christ Jesus you who then were afar off, came to be near by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:14 For He is our peace, He making us both one, and breaking down the middle wall of partition,
Eph 2:15 in His flesh causing to cease the enmity, the Law of the commandments in decrees, that He might in Himself create the two into one new man, making peace,
Eph 2:16 and might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross, slaying the enmity in Himself.


Eph 2:17 And coming, He proclaimed "peace to you, the ones afar off, and to the ones near." ( Isa. 57:19 )
Eph 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

Eph 2:19 So, then, you are no longer strangers and tenants, but you are fellow citizens of the saints and of the family of God,
Eph 2:20 being built up on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the cornerstone,
Eph 2:21 in whom all the building being fitted together grows into a holy temple in the Lord,
Eph 2:22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.


Eph 4:17 Therefore, I say this, and testify in the Lord, that you no longer walk even as also the rest of the nations walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Eph 4:18 having been darkened in the intellect, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance which is in them because of the hardness of their heart,
Eph 4:19 who, having cast off all feeling, gave themselves up to lust, to the working of all uncleanness with greediness.
Eph 4:20 But you have not so learned Christ,
Eph 4:21 if indeed you heard Him and were taught in Him, as the truth is in Jesus.

Your conclusion is simply a half-truth. One is a slave to one's master; either sin unto death or righteousness unto life.

The wages paid by the master (sin) are death and only death. The wages paid by Jesus Christ to those of faith are eternal life and only life. There is no "half-truth" in what I said.

Our blessed hope will most assuredly be the completed newness of life for we will have glorified bodies.

But you assert that this newness of life does not apply to us now while the text is wholly surrounded by numerous exhortations to overcome sin as Christ did by HIS power. It is a blatant half-truth.

Needless to say, there can be no meaningful discussion of Romans 6 without continuing on through into Romans 8...
which destroys any notion contrary to the TOTAL fulfillment of the righteous demands of the law, day to day.

Where is "day to day" in the scripture? And if "day to day" applies, then "moment to moment" would apply also, yes? So then any infraction of "law" would mean you are hell bound. ANY. Why do wish to live by laws?

Well, you alluded to day to day living. But I can agree it is moment to moment for those abiding in Christ, where there is no transgression.

Sinless, in Christ. Sinless, in the Spirit.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to flesh, but according to Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus set me free from the law of sin and of death.
Rom 8:3 For the Law being powerless, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 so that the righteous demand of the Law might be fulfilled in us, those not walking according to flesh, but according to Spirit.

Only so much can be said so quickly, no one is excluding Romans 8.

Good, then please consider my contribution an edifying addition that merits discussion.

But in any case, you have reversed what it means to be free from the Law, so now you have made being saved about following the law all over again. Do you not see a big and incomparable difference between the Law of Moses and the Law of the Spirit. The righteousness of the law is of NO VALUE.

The reference to the "righteous demand of the law" is to illuminate the bountiful grace in us that fulfills all of the Law's righteous demands.

Those immersed into the death burial and resurrection of Christ cannot by definition break the law, for they are dead men. Alive in Christ from the dead is to abide in Christ where there is no sin.

[Noeb]

Re: baptism into death

What does it mean in practicality to reckon (consider) yourself to be dead to sin? It means quite simply that you should regard yourself with the same mindset which Christ is regarded, eternally alive, and sinless. Does this mean you have attained sinlessness in your every day living. Absolutely not. It is simply encouragement to keep your mind on the eternal, on everlasting life.

Verse 10-11 are pretty clear. People focus on reckon (and write entire books on it), focusing on the wrong word. "Likewise" (KJV) -houtō, "so" in other translations, is the word to be focused on. Also, the context is that we are "dead to sin" so that we should walk in newness of life. So just as Christ died once to sin and lives sinless, in the very same manner (houtō), that is how were are to walk. Go and sin no more. It's not "simply encouragement to keep your mind on the eternal, on everlasting life" (you forgot the sinless part), it's a promise that you already died to sin and no longer have to sin -no excuse.

[Aijalon]

Re: baptism into death

Verse 10-11 are pretty clear. People focus on reckon (and write entire books on it), focusing on the wrong word. "Likewise" (KJV) -houtō, "so" in other translations, is the word to be focused on.

Meaning we need to know what is meant by "likewise" I agree.

Also, the context is that we are "dead to sin" so that we should walk in newness of life. So just as Christ died once to sin and lives sinless, in the very same manner (houtō),

I think you will find it hard to prove that "likewise" means "exactly the same" or "very same".

For instance - it does NOT say, "for we are to likewise behave."

It says that we are to: "likewise consider"

IOW - we're being told to "act like an adult". i.e. "act like Christ". No adult says to a child "act like a grownup!" and expects the kid to understand their behavior is expected to perfectly resemble an adult behavior.

Silly.

No, "act like a grown-up" is the same as "likewise consider yourself to be a grown up". Those two carry the same imperative, where a "grown up" is understood to be "act your age".

Paul is saying ACT YOUR IDENTITY!

that is how were are to walk. Go and sin no more. It's not "simply encouragement to keep your mind on the eternal, on everlasting life" (you forgot the sinless part), it's a promise that you already died to sin and no longer have to sin -no excuse.

Noeb, if you're right, then every person who believes/is converted, is then immediately perfect and sinless on account of a behavior system where sin is either 1) impossible or 2) causes loss of salvation.

Grace is no longer Grace if sin literally ceases to be possible or allowable.

Shall we sin so that grace may about, let it not be! is simply a characterization of attitude, he is telling us that we should not think that our mindset should not be lazy so that we think sinning is harmless, or even beneficial to us, so as to make us more righteous on account of receiving more Grace. He says this for the simple fact which is that more sin does REALLY invoke more Grace! It makes no sense to say that we aught not sin that Grace may increase, if it were not true, that Grace really does cover any and all sin (saved by Grace). Paul is asserting - NO CHEAP GRACE! (He's saying don't sin intentionally, - becaue there are unintentional, accidental, uninformed, and not-leading-to-death types of sin, many of them).

I grin at how less than honest people of your view tend to be about their daily lives, and their most recent sins, they wont' discuss them, because to do so is to agree with their own theology that they're not saved. It is the worst kind of inconsistency.

[Noeb]

Re: baptism into death

I think you will find it hard to prove that "likewise" means "exactly the same" or "very same".

in this manner, in this way

the word this sure doesn't imply another way.

For instance - it does NOT say, "for we are to likewise behave."

it does exactly that

"For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves"

It says that we are to: "likewise consider"

Wrong. It's 'in the same way count', not consider

Noeb, if you're right, then every person who believes/is converted, is then immediately perfect and sinless on account of a behavior system where sin is either 1) impossible or 2) causes loss of salvation.

I have no idea how you came to this conclusion. Scripture never implies we must sin. We are, as Jesus said, free indeed. Not partially free. We are not partially dead. We are not partially crucified with Christ.

Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Grace is no longer Grace if sin literally ceases to be possible or allowable.

who said it's not possible or allowed?

I grin at how less than honest people of your view

What view is that? So far you seem to be talking to someone other than me.

[Aijalon]

Re: baptism into death

If I did mistake you for one of "the others" (SHHH they could be listening!) I'm sorry. Most of the arguments seem to go along the lines that "free from sin" is to mean free of ever sinning.

[Noeb]

Re: baptism into death

If I did mistake you for one of "the others" (SHHH they could be listening!) I'm sorry. Most of the arguments seem to go along the lines that "free from sin" is to mean free of ever sinning.

It's ok. We miserably fail, but we don't have to. I simply try to state the power of the gospel. It says we are free to never sin, but that doesn't mean I never do or have ever known anyone that never does.

[cuban]

Re: baptism into death

Grace is no longer Grace if sin literally ceases to be possible or allowable.

who said it's not possible or allowed?

No one.

I grin at how less than honest people of your view tend to be about their daily lives, and their most recent sins, they won't discuss them, because to do so is to agree with their own theology that they're not saved.

What view is that? So far you seem to be talking to someone other than me.

Apparently, it's the view that condemns the brethren to be bearers of false witness for simply believing what the scriptures say.

The "others" are an imaginary group of Christians that claim perfection in and of themselves because the OP doesn't believe he/she is made complete in Christ.

This realization is of course only possible by crucifying the self-victimization that demands us to cling to a sin-identity.

[Aijalon]

Re: baptism into death

No one.

As you see, below, you do in fact suggest that the Christian is perfect.

The "others" are an imaginary group of Christians that claim perfection in and of themselves because the OP doesn't believe he/she is made complete in Christ.

You've hit something critical. Good. So you do recognize the difference, you claim you are now perfect, and sinless, and that by this new nature of sinlessness which from Christ being "in you", you can't sin. You take the self of you, and replace your own self will with the idea that Christ's will is now the only will at work in you.

However, this replaces the self will of you, so that the self will of you (which can sin if it want's to, by your POV I guess) so that it is no longer in a position that can sin any longer, since only Christ's will (his conscious mind) operates in your life.

What this does is supposes that everything you say and do is a conscious act of God himself, which then means all you say and do is always correct (and sinless, obviously)



[/quote]This realization is of course only possible by crucifying the self-victimization that demands us to cling to a sin-identity.[/QUOTE]
You fail here. It isn't sin identity. Identity is all about who God says you are, and who's family you're in. Sin identity removal doesn't mean you're perfect. It means that Sin no longer has a hold on your eternal life (which is eternal death).