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  • #61
    Re: Another Matt 24 question:

    Originally posted by petrobb View Post
    no, it is rather contradicting your interpretation of them. what they said was that the world was not unstable but would last some good time, indeed as long as God wanted it to last.

    but nothing physical will last for ever. i have yet to work out how the world will survive rev 8.12. or is that one you don't take literally?l

    but i agree i take notice of the NT and how Jesus and Paul and Peter and Hebrews interpreted these things. it seems to me they are more reliable than premills etc
    Ecclesiastes 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

    This is how this same phrase "abideth for ever" is used elsewhere.

    Psalms 125:1 <<A Song of degrees.>> They that trust in the LORD shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.


    John 12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

    1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    1 John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.


    Clearly then, abideth forever, the sense is literally meaning without end. With that in mind, does or does not Ecclesiastes 1:4 clearly state that the earth abideth for ever? If it doesn't, then maybe in all of these other passages it doesn't either. We both know that couldn't be correct.


    BTW, even if I gave up Premil eventually, which one day I may, I still wouldn't understand Ecclesiastes 1:4 any differently than I already do. I literally believe what it says, the same way I literally believe what those other passages say in regards to abiding for ever..it literally means to abide without end.

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: Another Matt 24 question:

      Originally posted by petrobb View Post

      but nothing physical will last for ever. i have yet to work out how the world will survive rev 8.12. or is that one you don't take literally?l
      I fail to see what Rev 8.12 has to do with anything. That is during the 4th trumpet. It looks like to me then, by the time the 5th, 6th, and 7th trumpet sounds, the earth is still here. And besides, there's also Rev 19. Looks like there are still plenty of folks alive when Christ returns to confront them.

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: Another Matt 24 question:

        It is a serious matter to insist that God's plan with the earth and man will not be consummated. Petrobb insists that;
        1. the earth will be destroyed
        2. man only has a "spirit" body and thus is useless for the original intended purpose
        3. that the Old Testament saints had to be told lies to help them understand scripture
        4. the New Testament teaches different to the Old Testament

        The sad thing is that while each has the right, and ability, to give their opinion, and many on this Forum are not swayed such "winds" of doctrine, there are many new, and young Christians who can be sorely influenced by such doctrines. The Judgment Seat of that fateful day will be something to behold - when Christians are called to account whether they stumbled a weak one or not, is brought to light for all to see.

        Let us be settled that the Old Testament is in complete harmony with the New concerning ALL things and specifically the earth.

        In Genesis 1:26-28, God declares His purpose for the new creature, man. It is to have New Governor of the earth, and this Governor is to be in the image and likeness of God. That the earth needed a change is indicated by the word "subdue" in these verses. This first Sabbath is crucial to God's well-being, for He makes it an "everlasting Covenant". That is, God resting while man does His work is a strong desire in our gracious Father. Note the sadness of our Lord Jesus as He must report that God has never had His Sabbath. In John 5:9 we find our Lord healing an "impotent" man on the Sabbath. And when our Lord is questioned by the Pharisees He answers in 5:17;

        "But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."

        Because of the fall of man, the man could not subdue and rule the earth and was "impotent" (v.3) to do so. So God was STILL working and had not yet enjoyed a Sabbath Rest. The word "hitherto" means from the beginning until now. But Hebrews Chapters 3 and 4 assure us that there "remains a Sabbath" for God's people. That is, the original purpose of man subduing and ruling the earth while God rests WILL BE REALIZED. Let us briefly (for long posts are not read) investigate;
        1. the so-called "destruction" of the earth
        2. man's destiny as connected with the earth
        3. man's body after resurrection

        (1)
        Petrobb will have you believe that the Old Testament tells of an earth that remains "forever" (the verses are published above), but which DOES NOT REMAIN FOREVER in the New Testament. He will cite verses like Isaiah 24:4-6, 51:6 and Revelation 20:11 (two of which already contradict his theory for they come from the Old Testament). What shall we say? Is there a contradiction in the bible? Perish the thought! There are scriptures to zoom us in and explain Isaiah 24:4-6, 51:6 and Revelation 20:11. They are;

        Psalm 102:25-26; "Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:"

        Hebrews 1:10-12; "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail."

        A "Garment" in parable is works (Ps.73:6; Isa.61:10; Rev.19:8 etc.). And a "Garment" is worn over, or on the surface of that which is clothed. The "Garment" of the earth is what happened, or, what works occurred, on its surface. First the rebellion of the previous Governor of this earth, called, "Prince of this world" (Jn.14:30) laid it waste (Isa.14:17; Ezk.28:18). Then later, man's sins laid the earth waste as murder, idolatry and sexual offense "curse" and "defile the land" (e.g. Gen.3:17, 4:11; Lev.18:25). That is, the world as we know it has a history of evil works and lies cursed and defiled. And when God caused the Great Flood of Noah's time, He "washed" the earth of its previous works. That is why this flood is likened to Baptism in 1st Peter 3:20-21;

        "20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
        21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"


        In Romans Chapter 6 we a "killed" by water in Baptism (Rom.6:1-6). But in 1st Peter 3:20-21 Noah and family are SAVED BY water. Why? Because they could emerge from the Ark to an earth PURGED of its old works. They could have a new beginning. BUT IT WAS STILL THE SAME EARTH. So Peter continues to tell us in 2nd Peter 2:4-6 and 3:5-7;

        "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

        "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

        That is, the earth's works, or "Garment" was destroyed by water, and will be again destroyed by fire. The world and its system and its works will be PURGED and forgotten at the White Throne and a new set of WORKS - RIGHTEOUSNESS, will be the norm on that earth AFTER ITS PURGING. 2nd Peter 3:13 says of this coming world;

        "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

        (2)
        Starting from Genesis 1:26-28, through Genesis 12 when God promises a section of EARTH to Abraham and his descendants, through Psalm 8 to Matthew 5:5 to Luke 19:12-19, through Hebrews 2:5-8 to Revelation 2:27, 12:5 and 19:15, GOD HAS NEVER CHANGED HIS PLAN WITH THE EARTH. The bible ends with a heavenly city "coming down to the New Earth" (Rev.21:2) for "REIGNING" (Rev.22:5). The Greek word for "NEW EARTH" is literally "RENEWED" or "MADE PRISTINE". God is not to be thwarted. He had a plan, and NO ONE can move Him from a relentless realization of this plan. He is the ALMIGHTY. Man is made from the earth, nourished by the earth and FOR RULING THE EARTH - and he does in the end.

        (3)
        Petrobb will have you believe that a man is resurrection is a "spirit being". He will quote 1st Corinthians 15:44;

        "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

        But this verse does not say a man in resurrection has a "spirit" body which "hovers over the earth" in the future. The word "Spiritual" means "having its origin in the Holy Spirit". The first body of man is made from dust. So he is called ADAM. The second body, that of Eve, has its ORIGIN in Adam, the man. So she is called "WO-MAN". The third body of man comes from the seed of the man and the seed of a woman and has its ORIGIN IN THE WOMB. But, in order to achieve the high and difficult task of "subduing" and "ruling" the "Prince of this world", who is an angel, and made higher than man (Ps.8:5; Heb.2:7-9), man needed a SECOND BIRTH. He needed to be "ENLIVENED" by the Holy Spirit. And John 3:6 tells us that ONLY the SPIRIT of man is enlivened by this RE-birth. Then later, through a process of eating Christ, the man has Christ "FORMED" in him and is TRANSFORMED into the image of Christ (Jn.6:53-56; 2nd Cor.3:18; Gal.4:19) - that is, in his SOUL. And our Lord Jesus informed us that this eating is by Him (1) going away and (2) being replaced by the Holy Spirit and that His words thus become "SPIRIT AND LIFE" (Jn.6:62-63).

        Then, after death, or at the Lord Jesus' Second Coming, the believer will receive a new body. Like the New Earth above, it is the same body, but NOT FORMED IN THE WOMB, but in heaven (2nd Cor.5:1-4) by the Holy Spirit. When our Lord Jesus died He was raised by the Holy Spirit (Rom.8:11) but in the same body (with the wounds of the nails and spear). Then, our Lord Jesus, with the resurrection life of the Holy Spirit IN HIM, "BECAME THE LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT" within the context of resurrection (1st Cor.15:45).

        So the whole process of getting man to be where God wants him is realized and effected BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. Thus, man remains a man, but the restoration and empowering process by the Holy Spirit makes man "SPIRITUAL". Not a "spirit-being", but a MAN who has his origin by and through the Holy Spirit. But he is still a man. Our Lord Jesus confirmed this in Luke 24:39 when He says to His disciples;

        "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

        Our Lord Jesus, who had the wounds of Golgotha, and who ate food and was to be touched and handled, was 100% physical man, but had at this point, His ORIGIN in the HOLY SPIRIT.

        To summarize;
        1. God has NEVER changed nor deviated from His original purpose. There is (1) no scripture that reports this, and (2) to attribute such a defeat to God at Satan's hands is blasphemy.
        2. The earth stays the earth. It might be purged one, two or three times (if you count Genesis 1:2), but it stays the original earth and is not "destroyed" in the sense of annihilation. It is "RENEWED". Its old works, or "Garment", is purged and burned away, but it itself remains forever.
        3. Man is man and remains 100% man, even in resurrection. It is just that he undergoes a RENEWING process in all three of his parts - Spirit, Soul and Body BY THE HOLY SPIRIT to make him capable of achieving God plan with man.

        In the end it was a long post - but I do not apologize.

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: Another Matt 24 question:

          Originally posted by Walls View Post
          • that the Old Testament saints had to be told lies to help them understand scripture
          • the New Testament teaches different to the Old Testament


          [...]

          Let us be settled that the Old Testament is in complete harmony with the New concerning ALL things [...]
          Agreeing with you here, and wanting to add a couple of links to this ^ point:

          "Forty Reasons For Not Reinterpreting the Old Testament By the New" by Paul Martin Henebury

          [many thoughtful points]

          http://drreluctant.wordpress.com/201...-first-twenty/ [the first twenty]

          http://drreluctant.wordpress.com/201...e-last-twenty/ [the last twenty]

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Another Matt 24 question:

            Originally posted by divaD View Post
            Ecclesiastes 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

            This is how this same phrase "abideth for ever" is used elsewhere.

            Psalms 125:1 <<A Song of degrees.>> They that trust in the LORD shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.


            John 12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

            1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

            1 John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.


            Clearly then, abideth forever, the sense is literally meaning without end. With that in mind, does or does not Ecclesiastes 1:4 clearly state that the earth abideth for ever? If it doesn't, then maybe in all of these other passages it doesn't either. We both know that couldn't be correct.


            BTW, even if I gave up Premil eventually, which one day I may, I still wouldn't understand Ecclesiastes 1:4 any differently than I already do. I literally believe what it says, the same way I literally believe what those other passages say in regards to abiding for ever..it literally means to abide without end.
            as the NT is in Greek and the OT is in Hebrew you cannot just compare phrases between the two. They are simply made to agree by translators. They are not the same phrase.

            Strictly translated Eccles 1.4 would be 'One generation passes away, and another generation comes: but the earth abides into the distant future.' The israelites had no concept of everlastingness. They were farmers not philosophers.

            God said to David, 'now therefore the sword will NEVER depart from your house because you have despised Me' (2 Sam 12.10). Do you think that will be fulfilled?

            God said of the Canaanites, 'NEVER seek their peace and prosperity'. Do you think that should be observed?

            In Deut 15.17 the man was to be 'your bondservant forever.' Seems unlikely don't you think?

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: Another Matt 24 question:

              Originally posted by divaD View Post
              I fail to see what Rev 8.12 has to do with anything. That is during the 4th trumpet. It looks like to me then, by the time the 5th, 6th, and 7th trumpet sounds, the earth is still here. And besides, there's also Rev 19. Looks like there are still plenty of folks alive when Christ returns to confront them.
              Do you really think that the world could survive if that happened?

              so you do't take it literally? what I love on here is the way everything has to be taken 'literally' until it is inconvenient.

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: Another Matt 24 question:

                Originally posted by Walls View Post
                It is a serious matter to insist that God's plan with the earth and man will not be consummated. Petrobb insists that;[*]the earth will be destroyed
                I didn't insist on it. God did, and Jesus did

                [*]man only has a "spirit" body and thus is useless for the original intended purpose
                I said will have a spiritual body. It will be perfectly suitable for God's purposes. Just not for your odd idea about its original purpose.

                [*]that the Old Testament saints had to be told lies to help them understand scripture
                that is simply untrue. when a physicist explains his theories in simple language saying what is not strictly true in order to help people understand we do not say he is lying. That is quite funny from someone who keeps talking about God as a liar if He doesn't do what you think He should. Talking about having to give account I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.

                [*]the New Testament teaches different to the Old Testament
                well it does. it reveals what would have been beyond the conception of OT people and brings out the genuine meaning of the OT.

                The sad thing is that while each has the right, and ability, to give their opinion, and many on this Forum are not swayed such "winds" of doctrine, there are many new, and young Christians who can be sorely influenced by such doctrines.
                you make me cry to think how you are misleading them. but if you get yourself sorted out you will be able to put it right.

                The Judgment Seat of that fateful day will be something to behold - when Christians are called to account whether they stumbled a weak one or not, is brought to light for all to see.
                Yes, think about it.

                Let us be settled that the Old Testament is in complete harmony with the New concerning ALL things and specifically the earth.
                It is in harmony when rightly interpreted, but it reveals much more than Old Testament readers could even have conceived. YOU hide that from people with your odd interpretations.

                The Old is in the New revealed, the New is in the Old concealed.

                In Genesis 1:26-28, God declares His purpose for the new creature, man. It is to have New Governor of the earth, and this Governor is to be in the image and likeness of God.
                I would be interested to see where it says 'new governor of the earth'. God was the Governor of the earth. Adam was given responsibility to train living creatures.

                That the earth needed a change is indicated by the word "subdue"
                Are you suggesting that creation was NOT very good, as God said it was? Are you calling God a liar? The living creatures needed training and guiding as we would subdue a wild colt.

                This first Sabbath is crucial to God's well-being, for He makes it an "everlasting Covenant".
                There is no mention of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is first mentioned in Exodus 16. He could not therefore have made it an everlasting covenant here. You are reading into Scripture.

                That is, God resting while man does His work is a strong desire in our gracious Father.
                I thought the Sabbath was telling MAN to rest on the Sabbath.?

                Do you really think God was relaxing whilst man worked for Him.? what a strange idea you have of God


                Note the sadness of our Lord Jesus as He must report that God has never had His Sabbath. In John 5:9 we find our Lord healing an "impotent" man on the Sabbath. And when our Lord is questioned by the Pharisees He answers in 5:17;

                "But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."
                now that does make me laugh. Do you really think that Jesus meant that God had not had a chance to rest? How quaint.

                He was speaking positively. 'God is at work in His mercy and compassion and I work with Him.' Any sadness was due to the unbelief of the Scribes and Pharisees.

                Because of the fall of man, the man could not subdue and rule the earth and was "impotent" (v.3) to do so. So God was STILL working and had not yet enjoyed a Sabbath Rest.
                I can hardly believe what I am seeing. Do you really think that God is struggling to 'subdue' living creatures? YOU HAVE A STRANGE VIEW OF GOD'S POWER.

                And God did have His Sabbath rest. IT SAYS SO.

                More to follow.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Another Matt 24 question:

                  Originally posted by petrobb View Post
                  as the NT is in Greek and the OT is in Hebrew you cannot just compare phrases between the two. They are simply made to agree by translators. They are not the same phrase.

                  Strictly translated Eccles 1.4 would be 'One generation passes away, and another generation comes: but the earth abides into the distant future.' The israelites had no concept of everlastingness. They were farmers not philosophers.

                  God said to David, 'now therefore the sword will NEVER depart from your house because you have despised Me' (2 Sam 12.10). Do you think that will be fulfilled?

                  God said of the Canaanites, 'NEVER seek their peace and prosperity'. Do you think that should be observed?

                  In Deut 15.17 the man was to be 'your bondservant forever.' Seems unlikely don't you think?

                  All I was doing was comparing the senses. In both the OT and NT, to abide forever, the sense is literally without end. As to these other passages you supplied, I get that. It's not the same concept. Let's leave the NT out of it then. What about Psalms 125:1 then? They that trust in the LORD, don't they ultimately get resurrected and then live forever, which then means they will literally abide forever? Do you agree with that verse or not? Because if mount Zion can be removed, which means it literally doesn't abide forever, then neither can those that trust in the LORD abide forever either, which would be pure nonsense if true.

                  Psalms 125:1 *<<A Song of degrees.>> They that trust in the LORD shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.

                  Then we have this which needs to be understood in the same sense as Psalms 125:1, in regards to abideth for ever.

                  Ecclesiastes 1:4 *One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Another Matt 24 question:

                    Originally posted by petrobb View Post
                    as the NT is in Greek and the OT is in Hebrew you cannot just compare phrases between the two. They are simply made to agree by translators. They are not the same phrase.

                    Strictly translated Eccles 1.4 would be 'One generation passes away, and another generation comes: but the earth abides into the distant future.' The israelites had no concept of everlastingness. They were farmers not philosophers.

                    God said to David, 'now therefore the sword will NEVER depart from your house because you have despised Me' (2 Sam 12.10). Do you think that will be fulfilled?

                    God said of the Canaanites, 'NEVER seek their peace and prosperity'. Do you think that should be observed?

                    In Deut 15.17 the man was to be 'your bondservant forever.' Seems unlikely don't you think?
                    It is truly amazing that such an attitude to God's Word can exist. Here we have a book so intricate, so well written, so revealing, so high, so complicated that men have studied it more than any other book, over three and a half Millennia, and still not come to the bottom of the matter, and a servant of the Lord, petrobb, can say that it is written for "farmers" (as opposed to intellectuals). But what does scripture say? Acts 7:22:-

                    "And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds."

                    And the Egyptians built the Pyramids, the which still boggle the mind of the modern engineer.

                    And further, it is not as if Ecclesiastes 1:4 was the only verse that showed the earth remaining forever. To uphold a doctrine of the earth being annihilated, one has to overturn a multitude of verses, AND the eternal purpose of God which says that man is to rule the earth, PLUS the fact that the earth, having being made by Jesus and FOR Him (Col.1:16), IS HIS POSSESSION! Who will take it from Him? God the Father? Shall not "... The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever" (Revelation 11:15)

                    And Isaiah 66:22 tells us,

                    "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain."

                    I have underlined the word "make" because the Hebrew word is "asah", and this word means "to make from existing materials". It is in contrast to the word "bara", used in Genesis 1:1 when God CREATED (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth. That means that the New Heavens and New Earth are made from that which now exists, confirming the Greek word "New" in Revelation 21:1, which means "RENEWED" or "MADE PRISTINE".

                    And again, in 2 Peter 2:5;

                    "And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;"

                    We know that the "old" world is not in contrast to a newly created earth. It is in contrast to a set of circumstances on the earth then!

                    The whole bible is replete with such evidences of the earth "remaining", and God's Kingdom being eternal, and you would teach otherwise?

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Another Matt 24 question:

                      Yes... (oh, and like many today think that Noah would have been too ignorant to have built an ark of such magnitude, since no one in OUR day has been able to, using the same materials, they say. But that's beside the point, I know... Your comments just reminded me of that... ) ...


                      Anyway, I came across this message and like much of what is said here:

                      "Jesus' Kingdom Teaching: John" -- Dr Paul Martin Henebury

                      http://www.telosministries.com/wp-co...Teachings3.mp3


                      As a side note, at one point he uses the phrase "proleptic -- 'YOU'"... the "you" [John 14:1-3] being future as well. But that's for a different thread.

                      (found a definition of "proleptic teaching" -- http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=952137 "Prolepsis is about anticipation." I admit, I've never heard this word. )



                      Adding this: Since the thread is about Matthew , I'll post this one too:

                      "Jesus' Kingdom Teaching: Matthew" -- Dr Paul Martin Henebury

                      http://www.telosministries.com/wp-co...Teachings4.mp3



                      As to the OP question, I believe "this gospel of the kingdom" (Matthew 24:14) is what will be preached during the 7-yr tribulation period (I don't believe "the Church which is His body" will be present on the earth at that time) leading up to the promised/prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, which will commence after His Second Coming to the earth.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Another Matt 24 question:

                        Originally posted by divaD View Post
                        Ecclesiastes 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

                        This is how this same phrase "abideth for ever" is used elsewhere.

                        Psalms 125:1 <<A Song of degrees.>> They that trust in the LORD shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.


                        John 12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

                        1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

                        1 John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.


                        Clearly then, abideth forever, the sense is literally meaning without end. With that in mind, does or does not Ecclesiastes 1:4 clearly state that the earth abideth for ever? If it doesn't, then maybe in all of these other passages it doesn't either. We both know that couldn't be correct.


                        BTW, even if I gave up Premil eventually, which one day I may, I still wouldn't understand Ecclesiastes 1:4 any differently than I already do. I literally believe what it says, the same way I literally believe what those other passages say in regards to abiding for ever..it literally means to abide without end.
                        Let us look at examples of Forever.

                        ‘The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron --- You even of yourself will discontinue from your heritage that I gave you, and I will cause you to serve your enemies in a land which you do not know, for you have kindled a fire in my anger which will burn for ever’ (Jer 17.4).

                        How does this tie in with restoration?

                        To David after his adultery and murder of Uriah – ‘the sword will NEVER depart from your house’ (2 Sam .12.10).

                        Not a good outlook for the Messiah?

                        Because My people have forgotten me -- to make their land an astonishment and a hissing for ever, everyone who passes thereby will be astonished, and shake his head (Jer 18.15-16).

                        How does this tie in with the restoration of Israel?

                        ‘All these curses will come on you, and will pursue you and overtake you until you be destroyed, because you did not listen to the voice of the Lord your God, to keeps His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you, and they will be on you as a sign and a wonder for ever’ (Deut 28.45-46).

                        More problems for a belief in the restoration of Israel?

                        To the house of Jacob – ‘The women of My people you cast out from their pleasant houses, from their young children you take away My glory for ever’ (Micah 2.9)

                        Not much hope for Judah then?

                        ‘The skin disease of Naaman shall cleave to you and to your sons for ever’ (2 Kings 5.27).

                        Even in the heavenly kingdom or in Hell?

                        Of Ammonites and Moabites – ‘you shall not seek their peace or their prosperity for ever’ (Deuteronomy 23.6).

                        Are we still to see them as unforgivable?

                        Of Canaanites – ‘you shall not seek their peace or their prosperity’ (Ezra 9.12).

                        So that’s now three unforgivable nations. We will have to alter the Lord’s prayer.

                        ‘So Joshua burned Ai and made it a heap of ruins for ever’ (Joshua 8.28). But later its site was built on.’
                        ‘These stones will be to the people of Israel a memorial for ever’ (Joshua 4.7).

                        But they have been long forgotten and cannot be identified.

                        I hope you will also believe these verses are for ever with the same intensity?

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                        • #72
                          Re: Another Matt 24 question:

                          Originally posted by Walls View Post

                          "But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."

                          Because of the fall of man, the man could not subdue and rule the earth and was "impotent" (v.3) to do so.
                          Perhaps you have not noticed but man now has all living creatures subdued, at least as far as he wants to. Indeed he has to protect them from his fellow-man.

                          So God was STILL working and had not yet enjoyed a Sabbath Rest.
                          yu have completely misunderstood the words of Jesus. Gen 2.1-3 makes clear that God did enjoy the seventh day as a day of not working. What Jesus was talking about was God's positive working on behalf of mankind.

                          The word "hitherto" means from the beginning until now.
                          It means 'until now' but it does not necessarily signify 'from the beginning. Indeed Gen 2.1-3 makes clear that He did cease working on the seventh day. 'Until now' may refer to the commencement of Jesus' ministry. That is what the context has in mind.

                          But Hebrews Chapters 3 and 4 assure us that there "remains a Sabbath" for God's people. That is, the original purpose of man subduing and ruling the earth while God rests WILL BE REALIZED.
                          But it has been realised. All living creatures are under man's control. The 'rest' that is for God's people has nothing to do with subduing animals. It is the 'rest into which Christians now enter when they come to Christ and 'find rest unto their souls' (Matt 11.28-30).

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                          • #73
                            Re: Another Matt 24 question:

                            Originally posted by Walls View Post

                            Let us briefly (for long posts are not read) investigate;
                            I love your idea of brief lol. But don't worry I have split it up for you.


                            (1)
                            Petrobb will have you believe that the Old Testament tells of an earth that remains "forever" (the verses are published above), but which DOES NOT REMAIN FOREVER in the New Testament.
                            No I do not see an earth that remains for ever in the Old Testament, I see one that will survive 'long into the future'. But you are quite right in seeing that the New Testament says that the earth will not remain for ever.

                            For the use of the word translated 'for ever' in the OT consider the following verses which ALL use the same word.

                            ‘The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron --- You even of yourself will discontinue from your heritage that I gave you, and I will cause you to serve your enemies in a land which you do not know, for you have kindled a fire in my anger which will burn for ever’ (Jer 17.4).

                            Here we learn that God's anger will burn 'for ever' against Judah.

                            To David after his adultery and murder of Uriah – ‘the sword will NEVER depart from your house’ (2 Sam .12.10).

                            Here we learn that David's house, including the Messiah (if it literally means for ever) will constantly be subjected to death by the swod.

                            For My people have forgotten me -- to make their land an astonishment and a hissing for ever, everyone who passes thereby will be astonished, and shake his head (Jer 18.15-16).

                            Here Palestine is to be an astonishment and a hissing for ever. Seems to conflict with the idea of Israel's restoration?

                            ‘All these curses will come on you, and will pursue you and overtake you until you be destroyed, because you did not listen to the voice of the Lord your God, to keeps His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you, and they will be on you as a sign and a wonder for ever’ (Deut 28.45-46).

                            God's curses are to be on His wayward people as a sign and a wonder for ever. So much for Israel's restoration.

                            To the house of Jacob – ‘The women of My people you cast out from their pleasant houses, from their young children you take away My glory for ever’ (Micah 2.9)

                            If God's glory is taken away from Israel's children for ever how can they be restored?A few more to consider:

                            ‘The skin disease of Naaman shall cleave to you and to your sons for ever’ (2 Kings 5.27). Even in the heavenly kingdom or in Hell?
                            Of Ammonites and Moabites – ‘you shall not seek their peace or their prosperity for ever’ (Deuteronomy 23.6). Are we still to see them as unforgivable?
                            Of Canaanites – ‘you shall not seek their peace or their prosperity for ever’ (Ezra 9.12). So that’s now three unforgivable nations. We will have to alter the Lord’s prayer.
                            ‘So Joshua burned Ai and made it a heap of ruins for ever’ (Joshua 8.28). But later its site was built on.’
                            ‘These stones will be to the people of Israel a memorial for ever’ (Joshua 4.7). But they have been long forgotten and cannot be identified.

                            It is quite clear to anyone who thinks that the word cannot mean for ever

                            He will cite verses like Isaiah 24:4-6, 51:6 and Revelation 20:11 (two of which already contradict his theory for they come from the Old Testament).
                            Well I certainly did not intend to cite the first two. Would you call this a lie or just deceit? Let us rather consider:

                            Heaven and earth will pass away but My words will not pass away (Matt 24.35).


                            Truly I say to you until Heaven and earth pass away not an iota or a dot will pass from the Law until all is accomplished'. (Matt 5.18).

                            Thus the passing away of the Heaven and the earth promised in Matt 24.35 indicates that all has been fulfilled.

                            By the same word the heavens that now are and the earth have been stored up for fire being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men -- but the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise and the elements will be dissolved in fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up (or 'laid bare' (2 Peter 3.7, 10).

                            the sun became black as sackcloth of hair and the whole moon became as blood and the stars of the heavens fell to the earth (Rev 6.12-13)

                            the earth could not survive the impact of the stars. it is all the stars not just a few asteroids.

                            'from Whom the heavens and the earth fled away, and there was found no place for them (Rev 20.11)

                            a moment's thought will indicate a catastrophe of unbelievable proportions which nothing could survive (of course the is where the literalists suddenly forget to be literal lol).

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                            • #74
                              Re: Another Matt 24 question:

                              Originally posted by Walls View Post


                              What shall we say? Is there a contradiction in the bible? Perish the thought!
                              at last something we can agree on It is just that your mind is too pedantic. You take poetry literally

                              There are scriptures to zoom us in and explain Isaiah 24:4-6, 51:6.
                              well i don't see Is 24.4-6 as forecasting the end of the world. it is dealing with the aftermath of an invasion. but certainly Is 51.6 forecasts the end of all things.


                              They are;

                              Psalm 102:25-26; "Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:"
                              note that THEY WILL PERISH. Anything folded up like a garment is unusable. But this is POETRY.

                              Hebrews 1:10-12; "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail."
                              Once again THEY WILL PERISH (be destroyed). But this is just a citation of the above poetic dscription

                              A "Garment" in parable is works (Ps.73:6; Isa.61:10; Rev.19:8 etc.).
                              here it goes. more of Walls' inventions. according to him garment = works i wonder what sandals means?

                              but his quotes do not say that to the normal person. in psalm 73.6 'violence covers them as a garment'. it is a pictorial expression, it does not make violence = a garment.

                              is 61.10 says He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness.

                              How are God's gift of salvation (deliverance) and righteousness covering us in His eyes be seen as works? It is the very opposite

                              And a "Garment" is worn over, or on the surface of that which is clothed. The "Garment" of the earth is what happened, or, what works occurred, on its surface.
                              well there are rules about being impolite on the forum (even if Walls ignored them) so I will not say what I think of this absurd statement. Scripture does not speak of the garment of the earth. It simply gives an illustration of something being put away because it was no longer usable, When the common man rolled up his cloak and changed it he no longer had use for it. .

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                              • #75
                                Re: Another Matt 24 question:

                                [QUOTE=Walls;3144480]


                                A "Garment" in parable is works (Ps.73:6; Isa.61:10; Rev.19:8 etc.). And a "Garment" is worn over, or on the surface of that which is clothed. The "Garment" of the earth is what happened, or, what works occurred, on its surface.
                                but it is not parable, it is simile. like a garment indicates that it is an illustration not a concrete description. there are no grounds for suggesting that the mention of a garment always means works. in the case of Adam it indicted God's graciousness to Adam

                                First the rebellion of the previous Governor of this earth, called, "Prince of this world" (Jn.14:30)
                                the prince of THIS WORLD was in this case the High Priest, and was later Pilate (see Acts 4.24 ff)


                                Satan laid it waste (Isa.14:17; Ezk.28:18).
                                neither of these citations refer to Satan. They both refer to earthly kings of Babylon and Tyre who thought they were gods.

                                Then later, man's sins laid the earth waste as murder, idolatry and sexual offense "curse" and "defile the land" (e.g. Gen.3:17, 4:11; Lev.18:25). That is, the world as we know it has a history of evil works and lies cursed and defiled. And when God caused the Great Flood of Noah's time, He "washed" the earth of its previous works. That is why this flood is likened to Baptism in 1st Peter 3:20-21;
                                lol you have a wonderful imagination. Baptism does not mean washing. It refers to being drenched with the Spirit.In 1 peter 3 the idea was that just as the waters bore up the ark so the resurrection of Christ bears us up
                                Note the parallel, 'saved by water', 'saved -- by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

                                it has absolutely nothing to do with 'washing the earth'. Was that why it was folded up like a garment? lol Did someone forget to iron it?

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