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  • #16
    Re: What is the blindness refering to

    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
    John 12: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart and be converted and I should heal them"

    Isaiah 6:17 "O Lord, why has thou made us to err from your ways and hardened our hearts from thy fear?....

    Given the miracles that Jesus Christ performed, his death and subsequent resurrection:-
    • why is Israel still not convinced that he is the promised Messiah and Son of God?
    • why is their eyes still blind and their hearts hardened despite the open nature of life and death of our Lord Jesus?
    • since Jesus did nothing in secret, and Isaiah 6:9 for-warned the hardening of their hearts (they read this in their Torah), why are they still not persuaded of their folly?
    when Jesus was doing His ministry the crowds of believers were pretty much all Jewish. the separation didnt begin until rome, the enemy of Jesus and the 12, took over the faith.

    i dont know why they continue in their folly, all they have to do is check out our churches on sunday morning tv. million dollar mega churches that look like a casinos, preachers living in mansions, flying in private jets, credit card machines in church lobbies. i dunno i guess its a mystery why they dont see the light.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: What is the blindness refering to

      What is the blindness referring to ?
      John 12: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart and be converted and I should heal them
      This is a great example of how scripture is written in a way that is not indicating the physical surface statement, but must be interpreted in a spiritual way. Obviously, this does not mean God has physically blinded their eyes by giving them physical blindness. Rather, he has blinded their ability to see in the spiritual sense, not in the physical sense. Similarly, the word 'heal' is talking about spiritual salvation primarily, no matter what physical good might come of salvation. People should take notice of this and not have a doctrine like "God has blinded their physical eyes", even though scripture says: ""He has blinded their eyes". In exactly the same manner, when scripture talks about Jerusalem and Israel and the Jews being saved in its many pages, it is pointing to salvation for spiritual Israel (not literal Israel on a map). There is plenty in the Bible about the salvation of those who are saved (spiritual Israel) but it is not meaning that there will be a resurgence of physical Israel. The prophecies about the future for Israel is talking about spiritual Israel, all true believers. After all, he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, but one inwardly.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: What is the blindness refering to

        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
        John 12: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart and be converted and I should heal them"

        Isaiah 6:17 "O Lord, why has thou made us to err from your ways and hardened our hearts from thy fear?....

        Given the miracles that Jesus Christ performed, his death and subsequent resurrection:-
        • why is Israel still not convinced that he is the promised Messiah and Son of God?
        • why is their eyes still blind and their hearts hardened despite the open nature of life and death of our Lord Jesus?
        • since Jesus did nothing in secret, and Isaiah 6:9 for-warned the hardening of their hearts (they read this in their Torah), why are they still not persuaded of their folly?
        I have read through the thread and I agree with you that Israel will return to Christ at the end. The extremely sad reality is, how much pain will it take to bring them back? Sennacherib, Nebuchadnezzar, Antiochus, Titus, and Hitler wasn't enough to cause them to return. The devastation that the prophets described is so severe that many people turn it into "literary hyperbole" in order to believe it. But, God actually meant what He said. It will be more painful than anyone can imagine. My heart breaks for them. On top of the very severe passages in our current Bibles, Moses wrote this in Jubilees.

        Jubilees 23:22. And a great punishment shall befall the deeds of this generation from the Lord, and He will give them over to the sword and to judgment and to captivity, and to be plundered and devoured.
        23. And He will wake up against them the sinners of the Gentiles, who have neither mercy nor compassion, and who shall respect the person of none, neither old nor young, nor any one, for they are more wicked and strong to do evil than all the children of men.
        And they shall use violence against Israel and transgression against Jacob,
        And much blood shall be shed upon the earth,
        And there shall be none to gather and none to bury.
        24. In those days they shall cry aloud,
        And call and pray that they may be saved from the hand of the sinners, the Gentiles;
        But none shall be saved.
        25. And the heads of the children shall be white with grey hair,
        And a child of three weeks [21 years] shall appear old like a man of one hundred years,
        And their stature shall be destroyed by tribulation and oppression.

        26. And in those days the children shall begin to study the laws,
        And to seek the commandments,
        And to return to the path of righteousness.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: What is the blindness refering to

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          This is akin to the chicken and egg question. Since God is behind their blindness, why do we blame them then?
          We shouldn't blame them, and in fact, Paul warns us Gentiles not to be arrogant against the natural branches. I look at this situation as if God is telling a story and the partial hardening is part of the big story. For instance, Paul says that because of the transgression of Israel, i.e. the death of Jesus on the cross, salvation came to the world. And Peter tells us this was part of God's preconceived plan.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: What is the blindness refering to

            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            Good question, and I've already thought long and hard about it. This is purely my speculation. I think that when nations go through their "death spiral" what happens is a nation gets overrun by what I call "the goats." Unbelievers finally get their "rights" and "freedoms," and Christian truth gets crushed.

            The only way I believe God can remedy this is by judgment. And this judgment will be aimed at restoration if the founders and members of that nation had been praying Christians! Israel had forefathers and great saints in their country, and they are still alive and in heaven waiting on God to answer their prayers for their country!

            And so, God will have to bring tremendous judgment both against Israel and all Christian countries who have gone down this familiar path of backsliding and apostasy. A great number will likely die, in order to remove the power base of sin that had been entrenched in the country.

            But afterwards, God can rebuild with the humble, who put forward that the ways of sin have caused all of the chaos, problems, and judgment. Then the people of those nations will listen to their prophets of correction, will repent and reestablish Christian truth. Both Israel and the Christian nations will all return to Christ and reestablish their nations on Christian truth.

            But great question!
            I like the phrase - "the goats" having their perverted ways in the name of liberalism and freedom. We see this happening all over the world, especially in democratic societies. Christian truth and precepts that have been the backbone and building block of our nations have been cast to the ground.

            As I mull over what you said about God's judgment, the parable of the good man who sowed good seeds in his field and his enemy went in the night and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way, comes to mind. The servants of the good man asked him whether they should root out the tares, but he said nay, until the harvest (Matt 13:25-30).

            And so it shall be for all that take the grace of God in vain, those that reject Christ, living their lives in unrighteousness. Alas! They are but empty vessels that are morally bankrupt. 1 Tim 5:6 Buth she that lives in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: What is the blindness refering to

              Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post
              We shouldn't blame them, and in fact, Paul warns us Gentiles not to be arrogant against the natural branches. I look at this situation as if God is telling a story and the partial hardening is part of the big story. For instance, Paul says that because of the transgression of Israel, i.e. the death of Jesus on the cross, salvation came to the world. And Peter tells us this was part of God's preconceived plan.
              I can't tell you how liberating it is to hear this from you! There are many believers on this Board (Keraz is one of them) who believe the door closed on the Jews when they rejected Christ.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: What is the blindness refering to

                Originally posted by birdy View Post
                This is a great example of how scripture is written in a way that is not indicating the physical surface statement, but must be interpreted in a spiritual way. Obviously, this does not mean God has physically blinded their eyes by giving them physical blindness. Rather, he has blinded their ability to see in the spiritual sense, not in the physical sense. Similarly, the word 'heal' is talking about spiritual salvation primarily, no matter what physical good might come of salvation. People should take notice of this and not have a doctrine like "God has blinded their physical eyes", even though scripture says: ""He has blinded their eyes". In exactly the same manner, when scripture talks about Jerusalem and Israel and the Jews being saved in its many pages, it is pointing to salvation for spiritual Israel (not literal Israel on a map). There is plenty in the Bible about the salvation of those who are saved (spiritual Israel) but it is not meaning that there will be a resurgence of physical Israel. The prophecies about the future for Israel is talking about spiritual Israel, all true believers. After all, he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, but one inwardly.
                An interesting insight indeed. Given the millions of ethnic Jews today, the number of their physically impaired are no different from any other nation today. So yes, the blindness here is that of the spiritual eye and not the physical.

                But I disagree that the prophecies about Israel's restoration are all about the international church (spiritual Israel). I just read an interesting piece by CadyandZoe, see post #11. He pointed out that God purposely blinded them as part of his overall plan to co-opt the Gentiles into his inheritance. This naturally proves that there's hope for Israel's redemption and restoration.

                Didn't Paul warn the Gentiles not to be conceited and write off the Jews in Rom 11?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: What is the blindness refering to

                  Originally posted by Tony P View Post
                  I have read through the thread and I agree with you that Israel will return to Christ at the end. The extremely sad reality is, how much pain will it take to bring them back? Sennacherib, Nebuchadnezzar, Antiochus, Titus, and Hitler wasn't enough to cause them to return. The devastation that the prophets described is so severe that many people turn it into "literary hyperbole" in order to believe it. But, God actually meant what He said. It will be more painful than anyone can imagine. My heart breaks for them. On top of the very severe passages in our current Bibles, Moses wrote this in Jubilees.

                  Jubilees 23:22. And a great punishment shall befall the deeds of this generation from the Lord, and He will give them over to the sword and to judgment and to captivity, and to be plundered and devoured.
                  23. And He will wake up against them the sinners of the Gentiles, who have neither mercy nor compassion, and who shall respect the person of none, neither old nor young, nor any one, for they are more wicked and strong to do evil than all the children of men.
                  And they shall use violence against Israel and transgression against Jacob,
                  And much blood shall be shed upon the earth,
                  And there shall be none to gather and none to bury.
                  24. In those days they shall cry aloud,
                  And call and pray that they may be saved from the hand of the sinners, the Gentiles;
                  But none shall be saved.
                  25. And the heads of the children shall be white with grey hair,
                  And a child of three weeks [21 years] shall appear old like a man of one hundred years,
                  And their stature shall be destroyed by tribulation and oppression.

                  26. And in those days the children shall begin to study the laws,
                  And to seek the commandments,
                  And to return to the path of righteousness.
                  I started this Thread in 2014 and a brother somehow dug it up again from the dust. So, I am looking at the subject differently this time from 2014.

                  At face value, their continued intransigence (given their knowledge of God and their chequered and painful history) defies logic. But we should remember that their hardness of heart and blindness was done by God himself as part of his all encompassing plan for all humanity.

                  Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

                  Paul explained that God himself is behind their blindness, hence his provision for the elect among who will be saved by grace. Ever wondered what would have happened (to us Gentiles) if they had accepted Christ and not crucified him?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: What is the blindness refering to

                    Originally posted by jaybird View Post
                    when Jesus was doing His ministry the crowds of believers were pretty much all Jewish. the separation didnt begin until rome, the enemy of Jesus and the 12, took over the faith.

                    i dont know why they continue in their folly, all they have to do is check out our churches on sunday morning tv. million dollar mega churches that look like a casinos, preachers living in mansions, flying in private jets, credit card machines in church lobbies. i dunno i guess its a mystery why they dont see the light.
                    You're funny Jaybird

                    Preachers living in the lap of luxury with private jets to boot. Mega churches like casinoes with card machines on hand, so you don't have any excuse not to dig into your pocket... Boy, you couldn't have been funnier, if you tried! But instead of drawing them in, I would say these are the reasons they want nothing to do with the church because, none of their prophets of old, projected themselves like the church ministers today.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: What is the blindness refering to

                      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                      You're funny Jaybird

                      Preachers living in the lap of luxury with private jets to boot. Mega churches like casinoes with card machines on hand, so you don't have any excuse not to dig into your pocket... Boy, you couldn't have been funnier, if you tried! But instead of drawing them in, I would say these are the reasons they want nothing to do with the church because, none of their prophets of old, projected themselves like the church ministers today.
                      have you ever studied the Hebrew bible with a Jew or asked a Jew these questions? they have good reasons why they believe what they believe.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: What is the blindness refering to

                        Originally posted by jaybird View Post
                        have you ever studied the Hebrew bible with a Jew or asked a Jew these questions? they have good reasons why they believe what they believe.
                        Unfortunately, I have not had the privilege. But whatever their reasons may be, it can't be correct because Jesus is the only way (John 14:6; 1Tim 2:5).

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: What is the blindness refering to

                          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                          I started this Thread in 2014 and a brother somehow dug it up again from the dust. So, I am looking at the subject differently this time from 2014.

                          At face value, their continued intransigence (given their knowledge of God and their chequered and painful history) defies logic. But we should remember that their hardness of heart and blindness was done by God himself as part of his all encompassing plan for all humanity.

                          Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

                          Paul explained that God himself is behind their blindness, hence his provision for the elect among who will be saved by grace. Ever wondered what would have happened (to us Gentiles) if they had accepted Christ and not crucified him?
                          I have actually. The world would be so different, I'd have no way to even guess at what today would look like. God's plan from the beginning was for Jesus to be crucified and the Jews reject Him. This blindness is indeed His doing for His purposes. That is why I think His covenant with Jacob and Moses is so important. I cannot imagine God deliberately blinding someone so as to send them to hell without a chance. They are covered under a covenant to protect them in the end, so they are not condemned permanently. Though, this can create significant theological debate, for another time and place. In the end, God knows what He is doing and I'm 100% ok with it, even if I don't understand exactly what "it" is.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: What is the blindness refering to

                            What scripture indicates it was God's plan from the beginning that the Jews reject Jesus?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: What is the blindness refering to

                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              This is akin to the chicken and egg question. Since God is behind their blindness, why do we blame them then?
                              they were blinded because of their rejection.

                              Matthew 13:13-14 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
                              And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: What is the blindness refering to

                                An interesting insight indeed. Given the millions of ethnic Jews today, the number of their physically impaired are no different from any other nation today. So yes, the blindness here is that of the spiritual eye and not the physical.

                                But I disagree that the prophecies about Israel's restoration are all about the international church (spiritual Israel). I just read an interesting piece by CadyandZoe, see post #11. He pointed out that God purposely blinded them as part of his overall plan to co-opt the Gentiles into his inheritance. This naturally proves that there's hope for Israel's redemption and restoration.

                                Didn't Paul warn the Gentiles not to be conceited and write off the Jews in Rom 11?
                                Romans 11 is not saying to write off the Jews. Neither am I. Else, as the chapter tells us, Paul would not have been able to be saved, since he was a Jew. What it is not saying is that there will be this big resurgence of political or cultural Jews in the end times. Some Jews will continue to be saved just as some Gentiles will continue to be saved, as many from either group that have Jesus as savior in the covenant of grace. Paul does indeed warn Gentiles not to be conceited and this is good advice for any believer, but he finishes the chapter saying that the Deliverer comes from Zion (the deliverer is Jesus and he came from Zion, which is heavenly Jerusalem) and turns ungodliness from Jacob ( a picture of all believers) and that this is the covenant of taking away sins (the same covenant all believers have in Christ, that by coming from heaven to die on the cross for them he turns them from ungodliness and takes away their sins). In fact, the chapter tells us in what way or manner this happens: "blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved". The word 'so' means 'in this manner, in this way'. It does not mean 'then' as some would-be theologians tell us. Look in a concordance. If it meant then, we would read: "and then all Israel will be saved". However, it really says: "and in this manner all Israel will be saved." What manner is that? The manner it just stated: "blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in". And that's the end of it all right there. A remnant saved by grace of both Jews and Gentiles is saved, that's the manner. In this manner all Israel (and this means all true believers) will be saved.

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