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  • To what degree does Jesus inform our Christianity?

    http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/jesu...er-sarah-palin


    To what degree are we really following Christ compared to shoe-horning our own beliefs into "our" Christianity?
    Last edited by BrianW; Jul 24th 2014, 01:19 PM.

    Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended in Christ Jesus.



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  • #2
    Re: To what degree does Jesus inform our Christianity?

    I see that we continue to have a tough time understanding what God-in-the-flesh intended for us to know.

    It is rough to take quotes written a couple thousand years ago and know the environment and conversations that were taking place when those certain statements were made. That is why we must use the words written in other places to help us understand the meanings of those phrases that confuse us.

    Jesus wants us to love our enemies and help them. He wants us to show love to everyone. He wants us to sell our garments and buy a sword.

    How is that for a set of phrases that don't seem to go together?

    Do we believe that God would have us stand by peacefully while someone harms our spouse or children because we love that enemy who is doing the harm? Do we really think that, when the bad guy is done harming one son that we should offer the other?

    If Jesus can fashion a whip to clear the temple of the money-changers, he obviously understood the effectiveness of an object in one's hand when it comes to convincing people of our sincerity.

    Capital punishment for murder precedes the law of Moses. God set that is stone early on - even though He did not have Cain killed.

    Jesus never forbid capital punishment, but if we use the story of the woman caught in adultery as if it really was written as part of the book of John, he did not forbid the stoning. He merely answered that the first stone be cast by the person with no sin. Apparently, there was another problem with the way the issue was being handled. One might say that an individual person is not sufficient as the judge to administer the punishment.

    If we will take Paul's words as evidence that capital punishment fits in with God's grand design, then we have further evidence that it is not prohibited by God, but it is apparently a function of a government and not of an individual.

    Understanding the true nature of Jesus - knowing that He was also God in the flesh - cannot take place through human logic and education. Knowing what God would have us to understand cannot be taught by the world. It must be taught by God Himself, whether he uses another spiritual person, the bible, or the Holy Spirit himself. I find that it sometimes takes all three.

    Trying to explain to the world what God would have us know is like building sand castles in a hurricane.

    The writer of the article you referenced seems to be looking at a very literal way to use the words in the Bible that same way we use our Chilton's manual to do a brake job on a car. That has never worked well for me.

    The bible teaches me about God. It is in getting to know God that my heart changes.
    Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.
    George Orwell

    www.r2ucv.com



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    • #3
      Re: To what degree does Jesus inform our Christianity?

      I think "love your enemy", "turn the other cheek", "being the least" is about solving problems on a personal level.

      If someone tries to kill you you may defend yourself, it's good police at times uses force, it's good to have an army to defend when attacked else earth would be full of anarchy.

      One exception, if someone puts a gun to your head and tells you to deny Jesus or else then choose for or else.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: To what degree does Jesus inform our Christianity?

        The Bible calls those who God uses to bring His vengeance to the evil doers... Ministers.
        Slug1--out

        ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: To what degree does Jesus inform our Christianity?

          Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
          The Bible calls those who God uses to bring His vengeance to the evil doers... Ministers.
          Minister is just an English word meaning to "serve out". This should not mean that ministering in always in regard to followers of Christ. The bible uses language in a non-religious way. The Assyrians were ministering God's wrath on Israel...but this doesn't mean that the Assyrians we followers of God in any way. God uses people. He sets one country against the other. He uses dogs to fight other dogs.

          I don't see how it is possible to confuse the ways of this world with the ways of God in Christ. Followers of Christ are to be separate (holy) from this world.

          When Paul says the weapons of OUR warfare are spiritual...who does he mean by "our"?

          Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended in Christ Jesus.



          sigpic
          מרן אתא

          Walk in the Light!
          התהלכו באור

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: To what degree does Jesus inform our Christianity?

            Originally posted by ProDeo View Post
            I think "love your enemy", "turn the other cheek", "being the least" is about solving problems on a personal level.

            If someone tries to kill you you may defend yourself, it's good police at times uses force, it's good to have an army to defend when attacked else earth would be full of anarchy.

            One exception, if someone puts a gun to your head and tells you to deny Jesus or else then choose for or else.

            This is contradictory and non-sensical. Are you being serious?

            Originally posted by Boo View Post
            I see that we continue to have a tough time understanding what God-in-the-flesh intended for us to know.

            It is rough to take quotes written a couple thousand years ago and know the environment and conversations that were taking place when those certain statements were made. That is why we must use the words written in other places to help us understand the meanings of those phrases that confuse us.

            Jesus wants us to love our enemies and help them. He wants us to show love to everyone. He wants us to sell our garments and buy a sword.

            How is that for a set of phrases that don't seem to go together?

            Do we believe that God would have us stand by peacefully while someone harms our spouse or children because we love that enemy who is doing the harm? Do we really think that, when the bad guy is done harming one son that we should offer the other?

            If Jesus can fashion a whip to clear the temple of the money-changers, he obviously understood the effectiveness of an object in one's hand when it comes to convincing people of our sincerity.

            Capital punishment for murder precedes the law of Moses. God set that is stone early on - even though He did not have Cain killed.

            Jesus never forbid capital punishment, but if we use the story of the woman caught in adultery as if it really was written as part of the book of John, he did not forbid the stoning. He merely answered that the first stone be cast by the person with no sin. Apparently, there was another problem with the way the issue was being handled. One might say that an individual person is not sufficient as the judge to administer the punishment.

            If we will take Paul's words as evidence that capital punishment fits in with God's grand design, then we have further evidence that it is not prohibited by God, but it is apparently a function of a government and not of an individual.

            Understanding the true nature of Jesus - knowing that He was also God in the flesh - cannot take place through human logic and education. Knowing what God would have us to understand cannot be taught by the world. It must be taught by God Himself, whether he uses another spiritual person, the bible, or the Holy Spirit himself. I find that it sometimes takes all three.

            Trying to explain to the world what God would have us know is like building sand castles in a hurricane.

            The writer of the article you referenced seems to be looking at a very literal way to use the words in the Bible that same way we use our Chilton's manual to do a brake job on a car. That has never worked well for me.

            The bible teaches me about God. It is in getting to know God that my heart changes.
            You are making complicated something that a child can understand....what are you doing?

            Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended in Christ Jesus.



            sigpic
            מרן אתא

            Walk in the Light!
            התהלכו באור

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: To what degree does Jesus inform our Christianity?

              Originally posted by episkopos View Post
              Minister is just an English word meaning to "serve out". This should not mean that ministering in always in regard to followers of Christ. The bible uses language in a non-religious way. The Assyrians were ministering God's wrath on Israel...but this doesn't mean that the Assyrians we followers of God in any way. God uses people. He sets one country against the other. He uses dogs to fight other dogs.

              I don't see how it is possible to confuse the ways of this world with the ways of God in Christ. Followers of Christ are to be separate (holy) from this world.

              When Paul says the weapons of OUR warfare are spiritual...who does he mean by "our"?
              So are you saying that it is wrong for God to allow a disciple to serve in a police force, military, or in the government?
              Slug1--out

              ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: To what degree does Jesus inform our Christianity?

                So as minister of God if God calls me to massacre a village I can go through the town killing people...and if someone slaps my cheek...I should stop momentarily to offer the other cheek...before continuing the slaughter? And this pleases God?

                Are the commands of Jesus like masonic recognition signals to identify one butcher from another?

                Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended in Christ Jesus.



                sigpic
                מרן אתא

                Walk in the Light!
                התהלכו באור

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: To what degree does Jesus inform our Christianity?

                  Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                  So are you saying that it is wrong for God to allow a disciple to serve in a police force, military, or in the government?
                  There are different ways of serving. Mennonites during the first world war served as stretcher bearers. One can be a medic. Whatever we do we do from mercy and love. Do chaplains bayonet people in the gut? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose?

                  A Christian can be a policeman...but he would not form the barrier of silence that protects criminal activity. He would suffer for being a Christian. IF he is truly Christian.

                  A true Christian would never be elected...not in this world. In the case of Nelson Mandela...the people begged him to lead them. So that removes the blind ambition that causes most (if not all) men to run for election. So there are exceptions. Mr. Mandela served the people who really needed him to make peace.

                  Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended in Christ Jesus.



                  sigpic
                  מרן אתא

                  Walk in the Light!
                  התהלכו באור

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: To what degree does Jesus inform our Christianity?

                    Hey episkopos -

                    I have a question for you: Would you differentiate between making war for reasons such as greed, power etc, and self-defense, or would you say it is wrong to even defend oneself and one's loved ones?

                    Yes, war is very wrong, but unfortunately it is a necessary evil when it comes to self-protection. How can we say we love our children if we allow someone to torture and slaughter them in front of our very eyes? (I would certainly not have thought my dad loved me or that he did his God-given duty as my father if he didn't defend me if it was in his power to do so.)

                    Even God sent people to war in Biblical times (and not always in self-defense either). The God of the OT and the NT is still the same God.

                    Yes, we should turn the other cheek when people offend us, but it doesn't mean we should not protect our own from death destruction.

                    Just my
                    Blessings,
                    B.
                    Jeremiah 29:11
                    "For I know the plans that I have for you,’ declares the Lord, ‘plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope." (NASB)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: To what degree does Jesus inform our Christianity?

                      Originally posted by paidforinfull View Post
                      Hey episkopos -

                      I have a question for you: Would you differentiate between making war for reasons such as greed, power etc, and self-defense, or would you say it is wrong to even defend oneself and one's loved ones?
                      And I have a question for you. Did the Christians that were thrown to the lions in Rome....go down fighting?
                      Yes, war is very wrong, but unfortunately it is a necessary evil when it comes to self-protection.

                      When is the last time you waged a war for self-protection? The world polices the world because the world is only concerned with life in this temporal world. Do you think Christians should be more concerned about this life like the world?
                      How can we say we love our children if we allow someone to torture and slaughter them in front of our very eyes? (I would certainly not think my dad loved me or that he did his God-given duty as my father if he didn't defend me if it was in his power to do so.)
                      We can intervene by offering ourselves up in order to save others. We "take the bullet" for others. Isn't that what Jesus did?
                      Even God sent people to war in Biblical times (and not always in self-defense either). The God of the OT and the NT is still the same God.
                      Jesus has come...
                      Yes, we should turn the other cheek when people offend us, but it doesn't mean we should not protect our own from death destruction.
                      So you don't believe in a physical cheek slapping?

                      Just my
                      Blessings,
                      B.
                      Blessings to you!

                      Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended in Christ Jesus.



                      sigpic
                      מרן אתא

                      Walk in the Light!
                      התהלכו באור

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: To what degree does Jesus inform our Christianity?

                        Originally posted by episkopos View Post
                        And I have a question for you. Did the Christians that were thrown to the lions in Rome....go down fighting?



                        When is the last time you waged a war for self-protection? The world polices the world because the world is only concerned with life in this temporal world. Do you think Christians should be more concerned about this life like the world?


                        We can intervene by offering ourselves up in order to save others. We "take the bullet" for others. Isn't that what Jesus did?


                        Jesus has come...


                        So you don't believe in a physical cheek slapping?



                        Blessings to you!
                        I understand what you're saying, epi, and all I can say is that if you can truly stand there and do nothing (if it was within your power to do something) when they're 'throwing you to the lions' you are a much better person than myself. I would probably go down biting and scratching and kicking (this is what women do, sbtw. If I was a man I'd probably throw a few fists: forget about slapping!)

                        I don't believe it's wrong to defend ourselves, though - but if you feel convicted about it you shouldn't do it.


                        B.
                        Jeremiah 29:11
                        "For I know the plans that I have for you,’ declares the Lord, ‘plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope." (NASB)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: To what degree does Jesus inform our Christianity?

                          Originally posted by paidforinfull View Post
                          I understand what you're saying, epi, and all I can say is that if you can truly stand there and do nothing (if it was within your power to do something) when they're 'throwing you to the lions' you are a much better person than myself. I would probably go down biting and scratching and kicking (this is what women do, sbtw. If I was a man I'd probably throw a few fists: forget about slapping!)

                          I don't believe it's wrong to defend ourselves, though - but if you feel convicted about it you shouldn't do it.


                          B.
                          A person who is good at defending himself will never be persecuted as a Christian. We are not to resist evil...but overcome evil by doing good. Let the world try fighting fire with fire. They will all be burned anyway.

                          Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended in Christ Jesus.



                          sigpic
                          מרן אתא

                          Walk in the Light!
                          התהלכו באור

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: To what degree does Jesus inform our Christianity?

                            Originally posted by episkopos View Post
                            A person who is good at defending himself will never be persecuted as a Christian. We are not to resist evil...but overcome evil by doing good. Let the world try fighting fire with fire. They will all be burned anyway.
                            During the Chaco War between Bolivia and Paraguay the Mennonite immigrants (who do not engage in warfare because of religious reasons) provided the Paraguayan soldiers with supplies and food. Though they didn't fight themselves, they did contribute to the war effort in another way.

                            So, although we understand this issue differently we as Christians can still stand together and fight evil together (in different ways). By doing God's will, David had blood on his hands. In order to do God's will by building the Temple, Solomon was required not to have blood on his hands.

                            Maybe God is convicting you about this matter because of what he wants you to do in the future. This doesn't mean that God's not also convicting others that they have to stand up and fight a physical enemy (as well as fighting a spiritual war, of course).

                            The NT Scriptures don't forbid warfare for self-defense, but they do teach us not to be vindictive, licentious, thieving, murderous, unforgiving, lying, adulterous, covetous, slanderous, etc.

                            In Him,
                            B.

                            PS: Yes, Jesus has come, and Jesus is God.
                            Jeremiah 29:11
                            "For I know the plans that I have for you,’ declares the Lord, ‘plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope." (NASB)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: To what degree does Jesus inform our Christianity?

                              Originally posted by episkopos View Post
                              There are different ways of serving.
                              God don't change E... He does order man to kill man.

                              Mennonites during the first world war served as stretcher bearers.
                              Was God leading them, or their religion?

                              One can be a medic.
                              I agree... now, a medic in Special Ops, is a trigger puller too. Men of God, Christians serve in such capacity, I know this for a fact. Is God wrong for leading them into such a position?

                              Whatever we do we do from mercy and love. Do chaplains bayonet people in the gut? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose?
                              When God leads a disciple into such a position, then YES, it would defeat the purpose God has for such a disciple. When God places a disciple into the Infantry where the position does require trigger pulling, would it defeat the purpose God has for such a disciple to serve as an actual "minister" to bring His vengence to the evil doer and stop the evil doer?

                              A Christian can be a policeman...but he would not form the barrier of silence that protects criminal activity. He would suffer for being a Christian. IF he is truly Christian.
                              Suffer how? Do you know any disciples of Christ who He has serving in law enforcment? Such police officers are the most dedicated because they have the support of God behind them (Joshua 1:9) and they "believe" in what they are doing. They are committed, they honor God in being obedient to Him when they do all that is needed to stop evil.
                              A true Christian would never be elected...not in this world.
                              Why? If God has purpose for a disciple to be in the government, they have to be elected in.

                              In the case of Nelson Mandela...the people begged him to lead them. So that removes the blind ambition that causes most (if not all) men to run for election. So there are exceptions. Mr. Mandela served the people who really needed him to make peace.
                              How does this relate to your position on Christians led by God to serve as His ministers and bring His vengeance to evil doers and stop them?
                              Slug1--out

                              ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                              Comment

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