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Having a Holiness Standard??? Huh WHat??!!?!

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  • #16
    Originally posted by watchinginawe View Post
    I suppose you meant can't be more holy? I don't know about that. Consider this. Joztok offered:Now some would call that a continuing work of God in us. I am OK with that. But here is how Paul referred to that in the previous chapter in I Thessalonians that I quoted (these are the 3 verses just prior to the 4th chapter I quoted):

    I Thessalonians 3:11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.

    12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:

    13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

    Now what I rest my arguement on is my belief that an attitude of "I got it all at salvation" may result in one not recognizing the grace of God offered to us in verse 12-13. You see, it isn't US doing the work, it is GOD doing the work within us. Where some will probably fall out with me is that I believe that one can decide to NOT allow God to continue His work within us. But, the next verse I think makes the point.

    I Thessalonians 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

    Abound more and more? As in more what? We see first that abounding more and more is a result of a walk pleasing to God. There is a way to abound more and more. We see that this must not be a binary truth (have, don't have), so what is Paul talking about here about abounding more and more? Looking back to 3:12, he is talking about love. What does more and more love result in? 3:13 says establishing our hearts blameless in holiness.

    I don't see it as us not being holy while being made more holy. Just us being made more holy, or more perfect. Consider these passages (bolded for emphasis):

    II Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

    15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

    16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

    18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

    7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.


    II Timonthy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

    20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

    21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

    22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.


    If God by His grace intends to sanctify us, either subsequent and/or continually after saving us, and we reject and resist the notion altogether, then how can God's grace abound towards us? Paul, in Romans offers:

    Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

    2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
    ...
    12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

    13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

    The question really boils down to whether we as Christians will yield to sin or yield to God.

    Am I perfect? Uh, no. That isn't the point. Is God working in me? Yes, I am a hard case, but He is making a difference.

    God Bless!
    I did mean to say "can't" and I understand and agree with most of what you said. I think we are saying similar things.

    The only thing that concerns me is that many do not seem to understand it that Salvation is spiritual; it is from the inside out. It is not the body that saved or born-again. That is why it (and its deeds) is still referred to as the old man and needs to be mortified. It is also for this same reason that many christian keep falling in and out of sin, that they struggle in life and with sin. Many have the consciousness that righteousness/godliness and holiness is a labour to be undertaken by them. If we have instead what I'd call the Christ-consciousness, a consciousness that we are indeed new creatures, God workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God had ordained that we should work therein, things might be different.

    Imagine waking up in the morning, and you don't think or consider sin, pain, struggles etc. You wake up, and doubtlessly, thoughtlessly, knowledgeably (ginoskoly), walk into the new day with the consciousness that 'I eat', 'I represent Jesus, heaven', 'I have victory over life's circumstances', 'I have all that I need to be the best that I can be'.

    The first thing you will realise is that, with that consciousness, you will not consider yourSELF any more. When you pray, it will be more of fellowship than, 'Lord do this or that for me'. When you meet a sick person, you know, YOU JUST KNOW, when you lay ur hands, or open your mouth, or whatever the direction the Spirit bear witness you to do, he is HEALED. You know why, cos there is the consciousness within you that the devil and his works are subject to you. The authority is yours...not because you heard or read, it has become a part of your daily consciousness.

    So am just saying that, how would life be as christians if we are conscious of the work inside, of the state of inner-man.

    Just by the way:
    Your level of Faith is directly related to level of your consciousness. Faith is not what you switch on and off. Its your way of Life as a christian. Faith can be grown (through fellowship with The Word); Faith can be strenghtened (by use or application). Thats why we have strong faith and weak faith, big faith and small faith. But it begins with THE MEASURE that is dealt to everyone at re-birth.

    Lots of Love
    You can NEVER Out-Give God. Try Him, you'll be embarrassed!

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    • #17
      Originally posted by JesusReignsForever View Post
      What exactly is a Holiness Standard and where would I find one in the bible? I am wondering.


      Also is it possible to be holy as a christian in this world?

      What would it take to be holy?


      Am I holy because I am saved? or is there a stage in this walk with christ tha one becomes holy?
      Matthew 22:35-40
      Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
      Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
      Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
      This is the first and great commandment.
      And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
      On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Steps View Post
        The only thing that concerns me is that many do not seem to understand it that Salvation is spiritual; it is from the inside out. It is not the body that saved or born-again. That is why it (and its deeds) is still referred to as the old man and needs to be mortified. It is also for this same reason that many christian keep falling in and out of sin, that they struggle in life and with sin. Many have the consciousness that righteousness/godliness and holiness is a labour to be undertaken by them. If we have instead what I'd call the Christ-consciousness, a consciousness that we are indeed new creatures, God workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God had ordained that we should work therein, things might be different.
        ...
        So am just saying that, how would life be as christians if we are conscious of the work inside, of the state of inner-man.
        Peeling now down to one comment:
        Originally posted by Steps
        Many have the consciousness that righteousness/godliness and holiness is a labour to be undertaken by them.
        This is the nut of the matter. Now, it shouldn't be a foreign doctrine to us that sanctification is a grace of God. Some would argue a continuing grace and some maybe a subsequent grace. Still others may not allow for the distinction at all but are aware of the doctrine. Regardless, holiness (sanctification) is God working in us. It is grace.

        Therefore, it is not a labour undertaken by man profitably before God. However, like salvation (at least in my opinion), man may receive (cooperate with) or not God's offer of grace in the matter. So, taking your warning above that we can not look upon sanctification as a pursuit of our own, I only seek to add a warning for us to understand the fulness of the grace of God. We shouldn't look upon sanctification as a work like an earnest "New Years Resolution", we should look upon sanctification as us yielding to and receiving God's work in us.

        II Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

        18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

        We don't grow grace by our works, but grace grows us in God's work.

        God Bless!
        Watchinginawe

        I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

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