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  • Grace and Works

    Generically speaking, I agree with the "Saved by grace" thing. It is a very obvious doctrine found in Paul's letters, and, though it is not given as much attention, it is still a doctrine found in the gospels.

    But does "Saved by grace" mean that "Works" play no part? See for yourself what Scripture says men will be judged upon. Pay attention to the colored portions of the text.

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.

    Matthew 25:31-46 [It's long. Go read it. Basically, it depicts Christ judging people according to their actions.]

    Romans 2:5-10
    But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

    2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

    Revelation 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    According to these verses, people are judged according to their deeds. Scripture makes it clear: faith is what brings us salvation. People often get caught up over Jacob's statement that "faith without works is dead" and claim that he was saying we need to do good deeds to be saved. This is not the case. It's plain: salvation is through grace only. Belief and trust in Christ is all that is needed for salvation. But works are essential.

    The one who is saved is judged according to his works. But this does not mean he is saved or condemned according to his works.

    1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

    All will be judged according to their deeds. But Paul says clearly here, it is the believer's rewards or lack thereof that are determined upon their judgment. Salvation is by grace. Rewards are by works. And, as I am reading it, the one whose faith is "dead" because he has no works, well, perhaps this is the one who "will [still] be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames"? For as Christ said, "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." They may have no works, or may even be sinning intentionally, but if they still have faith in Christ for salvation, who are we to say that they won't be saved, but only as the "least in the kingdom"?

    God's grace is powerful, so while there are Christians who do stupid things, and break God's commandments, they can still be saved so long as they still place their faith in Christ alone for salvation.

    What does anyone think?
    To This Day

  • #2
    The whole works thing divides people, 3300 denominations and growing, but yes I believe that we will be judged by our actions. I just happen to think it will be a good thing. Cleansing. Burning up the old man and placing me in a position to fully know God. The things that are wood, hay and stubble will give way to gold, silver and precious jewels.

    All shall be well!

    Comment


    • #3
      Very close to how I understand things. Lots of agreement.

      A comment on the Rev 20 passage,

      But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev 20:5-6 KJV)

      It seems to me there are a number of people who are already "priests of God" and elders not lining in Rev 20:12. Those who received the Holy Spirit while still alive I think.

      ....and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. (Rev 1:4-6 NKJV)

      The saints themselves have some sort of part in judgment. What exactly is meant by "the world" I am not sure but certainly to the point of judging angels. Point being the saints have a special position at the end of days past lining up with everyone else.

      Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? (1Co 6:2-3 NKJV)

      Joe

      Comment


      • #4
        One thing I never noticed before until the OP was that Paul DEFINES having good works.

        To those who by patience (endurance is a result of hope) in well-doing (works are produced by faith) seek for glory and honor and immortality(labor produced by love), he will give eternal life. This is what Paul defines as good works as he states later in the same passage that glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good.

        Comment


        • #5
          James 2 - 14-25


          Faith and Deeds

          14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

          18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
          Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
          19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
          20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by markedward View Post
            Generically speaking, I agree with the "Saved by grace" thing. It is a very obvious doctrine found in Paul's letters, and, though it is not given as much attention, it is still a doctrine found in the gospels.

            But does "Saved by grace" mean that "Works" play no part? See for yourself what Scripture says men will be judged upon. Pay attention to the colored portions of the text.

            Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.

            Matthew 25:31-46 [It's long. Go read it. Basically, it depicts Christ judging people according to their actions.]

            Romans 2:5-10
            But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

            2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

            Revelation 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

            According to these verses, people are judged according to their deeds. Scripture makes it clear: faith is what brings us salvation. People often get caught up over Jacob's statement that "faith without works is dead" and claim that he was saying we need to do good deeds to be saved. This is not the case. It's plain: salvation is through grace only. Belief and trust in Christ is all that is needed for salvation. But works are essential.

            The one who is saved is judged according to his works. But this does not mean he is saved or condemned according to his works.

            1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

            All will be judged according to their deeds. But Paul says clearly here, it is the believer's rewards or lack thereof that are determined upon their judgment. Salvation is by grace. Rewards are by works. And, as I am reading it, the one whose faith is "dead" because he has no works, well, perhaps this is the one who "will [still] be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames"? For as Christ said, "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." They may have no works, or may even be sinning intentionally, but if they still have faith in Christ for salvation, who are we to say that they won't be saved, but only as the "least in the kingdom"?

            God's grace is powerful, so while there are Christians who do stupid things, and break God's commandments, they can still be saved so long as they still place their faith in Christ alone for salvation.

            What does anyone think?

            This subject has always been very simple for me to understand but very diffcult for a lot of people. It is as clear as a bell that we are saved only by Grace. Works plays no part of it for if works did on our part then the cross of Jesus has no effect, Jesus never needed to come and die for us. It can only be by Grace. I also belive once your saved your saved you do not loose it ever! Now we are commanded to work out our own Salvation but look at the words work out..you cannot work out something you never had so here again your saved for good but you still need to work out just like a muscle in your body you have spiritual muscles so you can be lazy and flabby or you can work out your salvation which simply means the conditon of your rewards you will have when you meet our Lord Jesus Christ. This is where works comes in you are saved once and for all but now what are you going to do with it. For myself the whole idea that you can loose your salvation is of Satan. Yes you can walk away or turn your back but Jesus will not turn on you . The holy Spirit will reside inside you and seal your faith forever. You may go away from God for a long time but if you were truly saved from the get go then the Holy Spirit will bring you back into relationship if not then the Holy Spirit will simply take you out of the world to sin no more and make a bigger mess of things. I know I was born again 30 year sago and for 25 years I was walking away from Jesus doing my own thing but God never once left me that is how strong Gods promise is for us. No it is never a licenses to sin but it is a wonderful promise that God will never forsake you and God knows all his sheep. It is all pure Grace lest any man should boast. Now I only hope that Butch will leave this post alone. please Butch I know it is your like misson to attack the OSAS belief but give me a break here ok it gets way to old and tiring to debate this issue till the cows come home.
            God Bless
            Randy
            And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
            For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by looking4jesus View Post
              Now I only hope that Butch will leave this post alone. please Butch I know it is your like misson to attack the OSAS belief but give me a break here ok it gets way to old and tiring to debate this issue till the cows come home.
              1) This thread had nothing to do with OSAS/NOSAS. It had to do with grace/works. They're not the same topic.

              2) You were the one to bring up the OSAS/NOSAS, and you directly stated that NOSAS was "of Satan". You were the one "attacking" a belief, so I think it's a bit hypocritical to singularly target Butch, especially since Butch hadn't even posted in this thread.

              3) You say "don't debate this issue", yet that's exactly what you were doing...
              To This Day

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by markedward View Post
                Generically speaking, I agree with the "Saved by grace" thing. It is a very obvious doctrine found in Paul's letters, and, though it is not given as much attention, it is still a doctrine found in the gospels.

                But does "Saved by grace" mean that "Works" play no part? See for yourself what Scripture says men will be judged upon. Pay attention to the colored portions of the text.

                Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.

                Matthew 25:31-46 [It's long. Go read it. Basically, it depicts Christ judging people according to their actions.]

                Romans 2:5-10 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

                2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

                Revelation 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

                According to these verses, people are judged according to their deeds. Scripture makes it clear: faith is what brings us salvation. People often get caught up over Jacob's statement that "faith without works is dead" and claim that he was saying we need to do good deeds to be saved. This is not the case. It's plain: salvation is through grace only. Belief and trust in Christ is all that is needed for salvation. But works are essential.

                The one who is saved is judged according to his works. But this does not mean he is saved or condemned according to his works.

                1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

                All will be judged according to their deeds. But Paul says clearly here, it is the believer's rewards or lack thereof that are determined upon their judgment. Salvation is by grace. Rewards are by works. And, as I am reading it, the one whose faith is "dead" because he has no works, well, perhaps this is the one who "will [still] be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames"? For as Christ said, "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." They may have no works, or may even be sinning intentionally, but if they still have faith in Christ for salvation, who are we to say that they won't be saved, but only as the "least in the kingdom"?

                God's grace is powerful, so while there are Christians who do stupid things, and break God's commandments, they can still be saved so long as they still place their faith in Christ alone for salvation.

                What does anyone think?
                Hi Markedward,

                Generally you are correct, however notice that in the Matthew 25 passage that you quoted, only those who did the works were counted righteous and enter into eternal life. Those who did not do the works went into everlasting punishment. This "MUST" mean that the works will either result in salvation or damnation, there is no other option. The reward is eternal life or hell.

                When we are initially saved it is by grace through faith, no works. However, once we are saved we are required to do good works. Salvation is spoken of in the Scriptures is 3 tenses, past, present, and future. When we are initially saved by grace, no works), we are in a relationship with God. This is just the beginning. Jesus speaks of being saved in the future tense, when He says,

                Mark 13:13 ( YLT ) 13and ye shall be hated by all because of my name, but he who hath endured to the end—he shall be saved.

                This is speaking of the ultimate salvation at the judgment, this is when everyone is "actually" saved. So, in order to be saved at this time we must have good works. This is the salvation that Jesus is speaking of in Matthew 25. If there are no good works at this time then this believer will not be saved.

                Also if you look at the passage in 1 Corinthians, you will see that it is referring to teachers and not everyday Christians. The context is the divisions in hte church at Corinth, Paul is explaining how he had grace as a master builder and laid the foundation of the Corinthian church which is Christ. Then he says that Apollos watered and God gave the increase. Notice Paul says, if any man builds on this foundation (which he has laid and Apollos has watered) of gold silver or precious stones, he will be rewarded. However if any man builds with wood, hay, or stubble, his works will be burned up, but he himself will be saved. This is "not" a reference saying that if a Christian has works that are burned up he will still be saved, that is not the context that Paul is speaking here.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by markedward View Post
                  Generically speaking, I agree with the "Saved by grace" thing. It is a very obvious doctrine found in Paul's letters, and, though it is not given as much attention, it is still a doctrine found in the gospels.

                  But does "Saved by grace" mean that "Works" play no part? See for yourself what Scripture says men will be judged upon. Pay attention to the colored portions of the text.

                  Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.

                  Matthew 25:31-46 [It's long. Go read it. Basically, it depicts Christ judging people according to their actions.]

                  Romans 2:5-10 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

                  2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

                  Revelation 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

                  According to these verses, people are judged according to their deeds. Scripture makes it clear: faith is what brings us salvation. People often get caught up over Jacob's statement that "faith without works is dead" and claim that he was saying we need to do good deeds to be saved. This is not the case. It's plain: salvation is through grace only. Belief and trust in Christ is all that is needed for salvation. But works are essential.

                  The one who is saved is judged according to his works. But this does not mean he is saved or condemned according to his works.

                  1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

                  All will be judged according to their deeds. But Paul says clearly here, it is the believer's rewards or lack thereof that are determined upon their judgment. Salvation is by grace. Rewards are by works. And, as I am reading it, the one whose faith is "dead" because he has no works, well, perhaps this is the one who "will [still] be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames"? For as Christ said, "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." They may have no works, or may even be sinning intentionally, but if they still have faith in Christ for salvation, who are we to say that they won't be saved, but only as the "least in the kingdom"?

                  God's grace is powerful, so while there are Christians who do stupid things, and break God's commandments, they can still be saved so long as they still place their faith in Christ alone for salvation.

                  What does anyone think?
                  Greetings Markedward,

                  If I am wearing my body of death at the Judgment Throne, I am in big trouble, and there is no hope for me.

                  But if I appear at the Judgment Throne wearing the righteousness of Christ, and my body of death has been changed from mortal to immortality, and corruption to incorruption then I can rest assured that I will not be judged for what I did in my body of death.

                  How can believers be judged for things done in our bodies since our bodies are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God? Any bad thing we have done was forgiven through Christ, and any good thing we have done was through the power of the Holy Spirit in us.

                  Christ tells us that at the Judgment He will divide the sheep (believers) and the goats (unbelievers). The believers will be on His right hand and unbelievers on His left. (Mt 25:33) The right hand signifies salvation (Ps 16:11; 17:7; 18:35; 20:6; 72:23; Isa 41:10).

                  We are also told that believers bodies will be changed into glorified spiritual, incorruptible, immortal bodies at His coming. (1Co 15:51-54) It is in these new bodies that we appear at the Judgment.

                  When the books are opened at the Judgment, it is the "dead" who are judged by the things written in the books. (Rev 20:12) But God is not a God of the dead, but the living. (Mt 22:32; Mr 12:27; Lu 20:38)

                  So who is judged and in what body are they judged?

                  1. Believers appear at the Judgment clothed in the righteousness of Christ, wearing glorified spiritual immortal incorruptible bodies.
                  2. Believers are on the right hand of the Lord, because Christ was judged in their place.
                  3. Believers are not judged, only the dead are judged according to what they have done in their bodies of death.
                  4. Believers receive their eternal reward, but have no fear of judgment and condemnation.

                  Many Blessings,
                  RW

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Matthew 16:27 describes the same type of event that we commonly call "the rapture", which I'm sure you'd agree involves people who are still alive when they are "caught up". So even those "who are left alive" would be included in the event described in Matthew 16:27 are included in this judgment "according to what [each man] has done."
                    To This Day

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by markedward View Post
                      ...

                      What does anyone think?
                      What I think is, eternal salvation is by grace through faith alone. This is a free gift of God and once accepted can never be taken away.

                      I think you're right on to point out the judgement seat of Christ and that all men will be judged according to the things done in their body whether they be good or bad. This shows that the JSOC is about rewards and position in the Kingdom of God and later in eternity. The thing I believe is missed is this. Rewards are not always positive, rewards can be negative.
                      For example: "Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:" - 2 Timothy 4:14
                      We see these these rewards played out in a number of the parables. For instance, you have the parables in Matthew 25 and Luke 19. You have a Lord (Jesus Christ) who has servants (saved believers), some of these servants are rewarded postively and some of these servants are rewarded negatively, according to that which they've done.

                      Bottom-line is this. All who are saved by the finished work of Christ on the cross are saved eternally by grace. However, there is a race to be run and a prize to be won and this prize is to reign with Jesus Christ during the Millenial Reign of Christ / Kingdom of God / Kingdom of Heaven. This reward is not based on the works of Jesus Christ but the works of the servants of Jesus Christ. At the JSOC Jesus will reward His profitable servants with a "well done though good and faithful servant" and will count them worthy to reign over cities according to their works. The unprofitable servants Jesus will cut asunder and they will miss the millenial kingdom, yet enter into eternity once the millenium is over. Therefore, eternal salvation is by grace alone through faith alone. However, the inheritance of the Kingdom is by faith+works.
                      "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." - Revelation 20:6
                      "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." - Revelation 20:6

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Great day in the mornin' -

                        Rufus, you and I AGREE on something???

                        Great post, by the way!
                        V
                        I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
                        - Mahatma Gandhi



                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Vhayes View Post
                          Great day in the mornin' -

                          Rufus, you and I AGREE on something???

                          Great post, by the way!
                          V
                          I'm pretty certain this wasn't the first time

                          Thank you for your kind words.
                          "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." - Revelation 20:6

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Rufus_1611 View Post
                            What I think is, eternal salvation is by grace through faith alone. This is a free gift of God and once accepted can never be taken away.

                            I think you're right on to point out the judgement seat of Christ and that all men will be judged according to the things done in their body whether they be good or bad. This shows that the JSOC is about rewards and position in the Kingdom of God and later in eternity. The thing I believe is missed is this. Rewards are not always positive, rewards can be negative.
                            For example: "Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:" - 2 Timothy 4:14
                            We see these these rewards played out in a number of the parables. For instance, you have the parables in Matthew 25 and Luke 19. You have a Lord (Jesus Christ) who has servants (saved believers), some of these servants are rewarded postively and some of these servants are rewarded negatively, according to that which they've done.

                            Bottom-line is this. All who are saved by the finished work of Christ on the cross are saved eternally by grace. However, there is a race to be run and a prize to be won and this prize is to reign with Jesus Christ during the Millenial Reign of Christ / Kingdom of God / Kingdom of Heaven. This reward is not based on the works of Jesus Christ but the works of the servants of Jesus Christ. At the JSOC Jesus will reward His profitable servants with a "well done though good and faithful servant" and will count them worthy to reign over cities according to their works. The unprofitable servants Jesus will cut asunder and they will miss the millenial kingdom, yet enter into eternity once the millenium is over. Therefore, eternal salvation is by grace alone through faith alone. However, the inheritance of the Kingdom is by faith+works.
                            "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." - Revelation 20:6

                            Well said there are also crowns to be given we are to run the race..special standings.....but it is faith that saves by Grace and not just works.....but works come from the Spirit through that faith..How awesome is our God

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                            • #15
                              Romans speaks of 2 types righteousness.

                              Righteousness achieved from works and Righteousness achieved apart from works. So both types exist in Romans chapter 4.


                              Righteousness by works.
                              In Romans it speaks of Abraham being justified by works in the OT, which was credited to him as righteousness.

                              (Rom 4:2 NIV) If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God.

                              (Rom 4:3 NIV) What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."


                              Righteousness apart from works.
                              But in the NT, Paul shows us, that we are credited righteousness apart from works through our faith in Jesus Christ.

                              (Rom 4:6 NIV) David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

                              (Rom 4:7 NIV) "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.

                              (Rom 4:8 NIV) Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."


                              We also are credited righteousness , because of our faith in Jesus Christ. (Romans 4:22-Romans 5:1)

                              We have been justified by the blood of Jesus.

                              (Rom 5:9 NIV) Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

                              Our Righteousness comes from faith not by works Romans 9:30-32.


                              The NT also mentions work. This work is different from the work mentioned in Romans Chapter 4&5. This relates to the work that is done in the church (A separate issue, from righteousness).

                              Just look for all the verses which contain the word, 'work' in the NT.

                              (Romans 16:12; 1 Cor 3:12-13; 1 Cor 4:12; 1Cor 9:1; 1 Cor 9:6; 1 Cor 15:58; 1 Cor 16:9-10; 1 Cor 16:16; 2 Cor 1:24; 2 Cor 6:5; 2 Cor 8:11; 2 Cor 9:8; 2 Cor 10:15-16; Gal 2:8; Phil 2:22; Phil 2:30; Col 3:23; 1 Th 5:12-13; etc…)

                              This other type of work is what we will be rewarded for.

                              (1 Pet 1:17 NIV) Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

                              (Rev 22:12 KJV) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

                              (Rev 22:12 NIV) "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

                              So in my opinion, righteousness does not come through our works, but by faith.
                              But there is a different type of work which we do - 'the work apart from righteousness' – that we will be rewarded for.

                              Not sure if I explained it clearly. I hope I did.


                              Chad.

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