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Civil disobedience - is it ever right for a Christian?

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  • Civil disobedience - is it ever right for a Christian?

    This question is a spin off from the one about Christians surrendering their guns, and it is posed to those who said it would be a sin to not give them over.

    How do you feel about the people, many of them Christians, who hid Jews during WWII? One of my favorite books is The Hiding Place by Corrie Ten Boom who's Christian family was part of the underground resistance and hid Jews in their own home until they were arrested and taken to concentration camps. She tells of a pastor in her town who was totally freaked out that they would do such a thing as hide Jews and smuggle them to safety.

    What do you say? If not handing in guns is wrong, was it also wrong to hide and smuggle the Jews?

    Please don't see this as a hypothetical question. I really do want to know what you think. Thanks.


  • #2
    Civil governments go bad. When they go bad and resist the Lord, it becomes necessary for the Lord's servants to resist the government. The hiding of the Jews was proper, adhering to government disobedience of the law by causing the sacrifice of lawful/constitutional protections is improper.
    "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." - Revelation 20:6

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    • #3
      Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. I beleive God wants us to stand for right..thus civil disobediene. The martyrs did......afterall aren't we supposed to give our life for Christ?

      Comment


      • #4
        There is a world of difference between hiding a human being, in hope of saving their life, and hiding a material object.

        A gun is not sentient, it cannot suffer, it is not precious in the sight of God. Jesus didn't die for guns.

        He died for human beings.

        If you hide a weapon, thinking that you may one day need it, you are putting your faith in the weapon to protect you. It's up to you to decide whether it's better to obey the laws of the land, and trust God to protect you.

        I'll give you an example. Before I was Christian I was extremely involved in martial arts. Because I always wanted to be "ready" to protect myself, I kept my hair short (so nobody could grab it - I've been injured that way in the past) and I was generally conducting subliminal "risk" assessments in new situations. (For example, if I was in a room, where were the exits, and positioning myself safely from folks who could be a threat.)

        I realise now that this was extreme, and intensly silly... the one time I've needed protection from physical harm since I became Christian, I didn't need to raise a hand, or do my "martial" routine.

        Now I've relaxed, my hair has grown out, I can walk into a room without the whole "risk assessment" thing going on.

        Because I trust God to look after me, I don't have to carry a lot of baggage that - while it made me physically safe - helped to imprison me.

        I've never owned a gun. But I imagine that while knowing it's there can make you feel safe, it can also make you feel anxious... you must always wonder where it is, you must keep checking it's working properly, and you have to be concerned that if a perp saw it soon enough they would be more likely to respond with deadly force than if you didn't have it.

        I'm not saying that Christians should not have guns.

        But I am saying that having a gun is not in the least bit comparable to saving Jews, or any other human being.

        If you save another human, you know perfectly well that you are obeying God's command to love your neighbour.

        Hiding a gun from the authorities is not at all the same thing.
        Please could everyone pray for Mieke and Charles.

        My testimony http://bibleforums.org/forum/showthr...ight=testimony

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by AlainaJ View Post
          Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. I beleive God wants us to stand for right..thus civil disobediene. The martyrs did......afterall aren't we supposed to give our life for Christ?
          Which martyrs hid weapons from the authorities?
          Please could everyone pray for Mieke and Charles.

          My testimony http://bibleforums.org/forum/showthr...ight=testimony

          Comment


          • #6
            But does not God give us things to use...like guns?? If we are on a roof top and there is a flood and a boat comes by God may want us to get on that boat..he uses the boat to save us.
            Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

            God can use sword, he can use donkeys, he can use whores...to limit God is playing God..but that is me.

            For each of us will one day stand before Him..so let us be ready to give account....that is what is important. God speaks to each of us in different ways..we can not judge a message God sends..

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            • #7
              Originally posted by daughter View Post
              Which martyrs hid weapons from the authorities?
              If you go back through history you will see it...including during war times..these people gave their lives for what they believed in. Ok...lets say that I am in the french resistance and this is a true story. In order to liberate their country from the evil of Hitler, guns, ammo, radios ect..and alot of illegal contrababd was hidden. Many, Many people died for a radio, for maps, for many material things becuase with out those "illegal" things thier nation was doomed to the evils of Hitler. Through out history many people became martys for what they beleive in....If the govt. outlawed Bibles like in many countires, would hide yours or surrender it??? If worship was forbidden woud you not worship?? When Daniel was forbudden to pray, did he not , pray by the window?? Did not the 3 hebrew children perform civil disobedience and refused to bow....the consequenses were death..but tehy obeyed God.

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              • #8
                Civil disobedience - is it ever right for a Christian?
                Was it considered civil disobedience when Yahushua turned over the money changers tables?
                Thus says YHWH, "Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths, Where the good way is, and walk in it; And you will find rest for your souls.
                -Jeremiah 6:16

                Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. - Matthew 11:29

                Comment


                • #9
                  Alaina, the question was which Christian martyrs hid weapons from the authorities? You have cited Peter and John, who continued to preach in the name of Jesus. You have mentioned Daniel, who continued to worship God openly, and the Hebrew children, who refused to pray in front of a statue of the king. But then you have moved from them to the French resistance. While I have a lot of respect for them, the question isn't what secular grassroots resistance organisations have done, the question is can you find a biblical mandate for retaining weapons, when the government tells us to hand them in.

                  Obviously there are occasions when civil disobedience is the only biblical response. But if you're going to argue biblically that guns should be hidden from the government, you need to find some actual bible texts that speak to the issue.

                  People praying and preaching in public does not speak to the issue of weapons ownership. I find your logic somewhat baffling.
                  Please could everyone pray for Mieke and Charles.

                  My testimony http://bibleforums.org/forum/showthr...ight=testimony

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Exodus 1:15 And the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, of whom the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah; 16 and he said: 'When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, ye shall look upon the birthstool: if it be a son, then ye shall kill him; but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.' 17 But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men-children alive.18 And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them: 'Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men-children alive?' 19 And the midwives said unto Pharaoh: 'Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwife come unto them.'

                    Disobedient and liars.

                    How does God views this? 21 And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that He made them houses.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Yes, and those verses indicate that it was perfectly correct of people to hide Jews from the Nazis, or to lie to authorities in order to save lives.

                      But again, it doesn't speak to weapons.

                      Perhaps the problem is that this thread is addressing two issues.

                      Is it ever right for a Christian to be civilly disobedient. (The Bible does seem to give ample room for "yes.")

                      Then we would need a thread as to what issues are important enough to justify such disobedience.
                      Please could everyone pray for Mieke and Charles.

                      My testimony http://bibleforums.org/forum/showthr...ight=testimony

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by daughter View Post
                        Yes, and those verses indicate that it was perfectly correct of people to hide Jews from the Nazis, or to lie to authorities in order to save lives.

                        But again, it doesn't speak to weapons.

                        Perhaps the problem is that this thread is addressing two issues.

                        Is it ever right for a Christian to be civilly disobedient. (The Bible does seem to give ample room for "yes.")

                        Then we would need a thread as to what issues are important enough to justify such disobedience.
                        I agree...but once again it would be between that person and God.As I said earlier...we can't say one form is ok and another is not.. My point is hiding Bibles??Should Persecuted Christians do that???If the government owtlawed all Christian material would you surrender it..after all it is not a person??

                        I will add, that I a supporter of the second amendment and was not our revolutionary war the highest form of civil disobedience..but maybe becuase I am an american..

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yes, and those verses indicate that it was perfectly correct of people to hide Jews from the Nazis, or to lie to authorities in order to save lives.

                          But again, it doesn't speak to weapons.
                          Guns can be a vehicle to saving lives though, take a man or woman with a house full of kids to protect, they're going to be able to protect those children from someone trying to do them harm much easier with a gun(especially if the criminal has a weapon in hand) than with their bare hands. Weapons aren't a bad thing to have, there are numerous examples in the Scriptures of weapons being used by those on YHWH's side(ie: King David).
                          Thus says YHWH, "Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths, Where the good way is, and walk in it; And you will find rest for your souls.
                          -Jeremiah 6:16

                          Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. - Matthew 11:29

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Yes, that's true. But I was thinking that when God wants His people to have weapons, He arms them. Remember when Mordecai becomes Prime Minister, and the King is moved to allow the Jews to arm themselves against their persecutors?

                            I know there is a place for weapons, but in my experience (and I have a lot of pre Christian experience when it comes to civil disobedience and self defense) obsession about weapons training can become a mental and spiritual bind. It was a huge relief to let go of the feeling that I have to constantly be ready to defend myself.

                            Last year two armed men broke into my house past midnight. (Okay, they were only armed with a knife, but still alarming when you're a single mum with a kid and you find them in your boy's bedroom.) I didn't have to raise a finger to defend us... somehow the fear of God was put into them, and my son and I were fine.

                            I trust God to defend me now, whereas before I'd have leaned on my own strength. (And possibly had a great story to tell about it... but that's neither here nor there.)

                            I prefer trusting God, and not worrying about keeping my hair short, my exits clearly marked, my back to the wall. To be honest, I don't often need protecting, and when I do, God has my back.

                            On the other hand, the US is a radically different culture, I understand you do things differently there. But if God wants you armed, He'll arm you, just as He armed the Jews when they needed to fight against their enemies. If a government tells you to give up your arms... then I would assume God doesn't want you armed.

                            After all, the heart of the King is in His hands.

                            I would keep the Bible though... the Bible is the Word of God. And I'd die to protect my right to share God's word. I'd never die for a gun though.
                            Please could everyone pray for Mieke and Charles.

                            My testimony http://bibleforums.org/forum/showthr...ight=testimony

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by daughter View Post
                              Yes, that's true. But I was thinking that when God wants His people to have weapons, He arms them. ...
                              God does want His people to have weapons, and is why He gave us the 2nd amendment. It is the Philistines that are always trying to take the weapons away from God's people.
                              "17 And the spoilers came out of the camp of the Philistines in three companies: one company turned unto the way that leadeth to Ophrah, unto the land of Shual: 18 And another company turned the way to Bethhoron: and another company turned to the way of the border that looketh to the valley of Zeboim toward the wilderness. 19 Now there was no smith found throughout all the land of Israel: for the Philistines said, Lest the Hebrews make them swords or spears: 20 But all the Israelites went down to the Philistines, to sharpen every man his share, and his coulter, and his axe, and his mattock. 21 Yet they had a file for the mattocks, and for the coulters, and for the forks, and for the axes, and to sharpen the goads. 22 So it came to pass in the day of battle, that there was neither sword nor spear found in the hand of any of the people that were with Saul and Jonathan: but with Saul and with Jonathan his son was there found." - 1 Samuel 13:17-21

                              Today's Philistines want to take them away in direct opposition to the rule of law. Christians ought to obey the law.
                              "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." - Revelation 20:6

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