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Total Depravity

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  • Total Depravity

    Wikipedia defines Total Depravity as the following: (definition in black, Scriptures in Purple)

    As a consequence of the Fall of Man (For as in Adam all die; the many died by the trespass of the one man; the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men), every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin ("Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.'"; death came to all men, because all sinned; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin; When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.) and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God (and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus; For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace; And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace; For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—; , is utterly unable to choose to follow God or choose to accept salvation as it is freely offered. ("None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."; "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." "Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins."; 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.'"; "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.")

    Sounds right so far....

    Yuke

  • #2
    Yep - sometimes Wikipedia does get it right!

    Comment


    • #3
      Total Depravity
      The doctrine of Total Depravity, also called “total inability” and “total corruption”, states that mankind's entire nature, including its reason, is corrupt or sinful as a result of the fall of mankind originating from the sin of Adam and Eve. It also states that everyone is born with a “sin nature” as a result of original sin. This teaches that all descendants of Adam and Eve share in this sin and are, from the time they are conceived, in a state of sin, which concludes that sin is inherited.

      The error the doctrine of Total Depravity is that man is incapable to will any spiritual good concerning salvation. This error the doctrine of Total Depravity states that man can not come to God and request to be saved, which is to say that man can not acknowledge the truth when presented. The doctrine of Total Depravity states that God must, first, give faith to man in order to come to him because the Scripture says John 6:44 No one is able to come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day. In other words, one can not choose to believe and act upon the truth of God from his own volition.

      The fact is that man is able to choose to believe God and act upon that truth for the purpose of salvation. We must know how God draws man and moves man's heart to understand this verse. God uses circumstances to draw men and to move man's heart. For example: Say there is a sinner that hated you for a long time before you knew Christ. He became destitute, living on the street. This sinner fell among thieves, who both stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead. By chance you, came where he was, went to him, and bound up his wounds, and put him in your own car, and brought him to a hospital, where they made him well enough to be taken home. Now you take him in to your own home and feed him, clothe him and tell him the gospel. Now would he, could he look callously at you, and say, "Oh I wish I could repent, that I have hated you so much, but I can't. I wish I could be sorry for my sin against you and the God that you speak of, but I can't". Could he say this from his "inability"? I say that this man will see the way you treated him and acknowledge that you are a different man from when he first met you while you did not know Christ yet. He will acknowledge his retched state and inquire how to receive the Christ that you have.

      God did not have to give that man Grace to come to Christ, because Christ came to him through you. God did not have to reach into his chest to move his heart, because the circumstances did that. God did not have to give that man faith to acknowledge the truth and act upon it. There was no inability of that man to acknowledge Christ, because Christ was evidently real to him. Therefore, How does God a new heart? I say that after one hears the truth, one is persuaded to act upon it and once acted upon; God gives him a new heart. What is that new Heart? It is a new view on life, and a new motive for everything that you do. In these new aspects of your life will become actions or works that give a testimony of Christ in you. God does not give new hearts magically or mystically; He does it relationally.

      Comment


      • #4
        I'd love to comment on the above opinion, but I find no Scripture stated to refute the fact of Total Depravity.

        Matter of fact, the only verse stated in the text is one of the versesa that prove Total Depravity.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
          I'd love to comment on the above opinion, but I find no Scripture stated to refute the fact of Total Depravity.

          Matter of fact, the only verse stated in the text is one of the versesa that prove Total Depravity.
          If you want to prove Total Depravity, you need to show Scripture that states that a man is "incapable" of doing good.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
            I'd love to comment on the above opinion, but I find no Scripture stated to refute the fact of Total Depravity.

            Matter of fact, the only verse stated in the text is one of the versesa that prove Total Depravity.

            Do you believe that man, every man was created in God's image or just Adam?

            If every man, in what sense?

            If only Adam, in what sense?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Diolectic View Post
              Total Depravity
              The doctrine of Total Depravity, also called “total inability” and “total corruption”, states that mankind's entire nature, including its reason, is corrupt or sinful as a result of the fall of mankind originating from the sin of Adam and Eve. It also states that everyone is born with a “sin nature” as a result of original sin. This teaches that all descendants of Adam and Eve share in this sin and are, from the time they are conceived, in a state of sin, which concludes that sin is inherited.

              The error the doctrine of Total Depravity is that man is incapable to will any spiritual good concerning salvation. This error the doctrine of Total Depravity states that man can not come to God and request to be saved, which is to say that man can not acknowledge the truth when presented. The doctrine of Total Depravity states that God must, first, give faith to man in order to come to him because the Scripture says John 6:44 No one is able to come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day. In other words, one can not choose to believe and act upon the truth of God from his own volition.

              The fact is that man is able to choose to believe God and act upon that truth for the purpose of salvation. We must know how God draws man and moves man's heart to understand this verse. God uses circumstances to draw men and to move man's heart. For example: Say there is a sinner that hated you for a long time before you knew Christ. He became destitute, living on the street. This sinner fell among thieves, who both stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead. By chance you, came where he was, went to him, and bound up his wounds, and put him in your own car, and brought him to a hospital, where they made him well enough to be taken home. Now you take him in to your own home and feed him, clothe him and tell him the gospel. Now would he, could he look callously at you, and say, "Oh I wish I could repent, that I have hated you so much, but I can't. I wish I could be sorry for my sin against you and the God that you speak of, but I can't". Could he say this from his "inability"? I say that this man will see the way you treated him and acknowledge that you are a different man from when he first met you while you did not know Christ yet. He will acknowledge his retched state and inquire how to receive the Christ that you have.

              God did not have to give that man Grace to come to Christ, because Christ came to him through you. God did not have to reach into his chest to move his heart, because the circumstances did that. God did not have to give that man faith to acknowledge the truth and act upon it. There was no inability of that man to acknowledge Christ, because Christ was evidently real to him. Therefore, How does God a new heart? I say that after one hears the truth, one is persuaded to act upon it and once acted upon; God gives him a new heart. What is that new Heart? It is a new view on life, and a new motive for everything that you do. In these new aspects of your life will become actions or works that give a testimony of Christ in you. God does not give new hearts magically or mystically; He does it relationally.
              Actually man cannot choose God or Jesus Christ without the working of the holy spirit. Why_ The answer is simple Adam and Eve were the only 2 humans that had free will before sin entered them. that is why you need the holy spirit to be saved.

              God Bless
              Randy
              And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
              For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
                If you want to prove Total Depravity, you need to show Scripture that states that a man is "incapable" of doing good.
                I'll pick out of the countless many, this one....(For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Do you believe that man, every man was created in God's image or just Adam?

                  If every man, in what sense?

                  If only Adam, in what sense?
                  I believe that every man was created in God's image. I believe that is a phyisical representation of His spiritual body.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Romans 8:1-11
                    There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
                    You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodiesthrough his Spirit who dwells in you.
                    This section of Romans is talking about the choice believers have everyday- to live according to the flesh or according to the Spirit. It's impossible to please God when we choose to live according to the flesh. Such a choice is one of deliberate sin.

                    It is not talking about the false doctrine of "total depravity".
                    You were made to think. It will do you good to think; to develop your powers by study. God designed that religion should require thought, intense thought, and should thoroughly develop our powers of thought.

                    Charles G Finney



                    http://holyrokker.blogspot.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      My goodness. Do you read the Scripture you post, or do you just copy and paste hoping no one else will read it?

                      You say it is a talking about a choice believers face everyday, yet it says "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you."

                      This is not a daily choice. This is a one shot deal. Either the Spirit of God dwells in you or He doesn't.

                      Paul states that those whose minds are set on the flesh are unable to please God. He then contrasts that with those who have been chosen by saying we are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit.

                      Read into it what you will, but Paul tells no lie and means what he says in Scripture.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
                        My goodness. Do you read the Scripture you post, or do you just copy and paste hoping no one else will read it?
                        Why don't we stick to productive discussion, rather than insults?
                        Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
                        You say it is a talking about a choice believers face everyday, yet it says "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you."

                        This is not a daily choice. This is a one shot deal. Either the Spirit of God dwells in you or He doesn't.
                        I probably should have included the next verse in that passage - Romans 8:12-13
                        "So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

                        Colossians 3:2 "Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth."
                        "Set" is an imperative. It involves a decsion that we must make.

                        Galatians 5:16-17, 25 "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other....If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit."

                        Let us walk is also in the imperative - something we must do - a choice to be made.

                        These passages are all talking about the life of the believer.
                        You were made to think. It will do you good to think; to develop your powers by study. God designed that religion should require thought, intense thought, and should thoroughly develop our powers of thought.

                        Charles G Finney



                        http://holyrokker.blogspot.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by looking4jesus View Post
                          Actually man cannot choose God or Jesus Christ without the working of the holy spirit. Why_ The answer is simple Adam and Eve were the only 2 humans that had free will before sin entered them. that is why you need the holy spirit to be saved.

                          God Bless
                          Randy
                          Where in the Scripture was free will taken?

                          Sin "entered them" before they actualy commited the sin.
                          Was it fefore or after the ate of the tree that they lost free will?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Diolectic is correct.

                            Unlike predestination, or Adam's sin making everyone sinners, or Christ laying down His life for His sheep rather than all, or that everyone who God chose before creation to drag to Christ to be saved, all of these are found in the Scripture.

                            Free will is not.

                            Good point, Diolectic.

                            Yuke

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