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  • Unconditional Election

    Wikipedia's Definition in black, Scripture in purple.

    Before God created the world, he chose to savesome people (You did not choose me, but I chose you; as many as were appointed to eternal life believed; it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy; he chose us in him before the foundation of the world; God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved; who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,") according to his own purposes (God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.; Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.; In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will; according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.; it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.; who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, and apart from any conditions related to those persons (You did not choose me; it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God; who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works; If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.; God credits righteousness apart from works:; not by works but by him who calls; It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.; before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—; And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.; it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.)

    I would say Wikipedia is 2 for 2 so far.





  • #2
    Unconditional Election:
    The doctrine of “Unconditional election” also called “election of the saints” or “Predestination” which comes from Bible verses as Rom 8:29-30, Rom 9:11-16, Eph 1:5, Eph 1:11, and the like. The doctrine of Unconditional election concerns God's decision to determine ahead of time what the destiny of groups and/or individuals will be. God's decision concerning the salvation of people is predetermined before time.

    The doctrine of Unconditional Election denies man's choice by figuring that if man had free will to choose his own destiny, it would diminish God's sovereignty. This doctrine figures that if God gives an authority to man as freedom to choose or even free will it would diminish His sovereignty or He would not have any ability to perform his own will over that of mans. While in reality, this magnifies God's sovereignty by showing His ability to have government over what man has authority of.

    This doctrine figures that if God gives an authority to man as freedom to choose, it would be giving some glory to the one willing; however, this is a false Idea in that the one willing is actually glorifying God by acknowledging HIM to be right in HIS charges against mankind. The one willing to be saved is also humbling himself in humiliation by admitting that:
    1: There is a God which he offended.

    2: He is a sinner under God's wrath.
    3: He needs to be saved.
    4: He can not save himself
    5: Jesus is the savior.
    6: All he can do is only repent and believe.

    The real difficulty here is that the doctrine of Unconditional Election claims that God has elected only a few, while it must explain why He only chooses those who He elects and let the others die impenitent, and suffer eternally in hell without any choice of their own.

    This doctrine fails to acknowledge that Christ's work on the cross is for all (1John 2:2), but limits Christ's work on the cross for only the elect. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Knowing that the ungodly is the entirity of mankind without Christ.
    Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.


    If man is unable to choose his own destiny, there is no justice for hell and hell would not only be created for the devil and his angels, but for man also (Matthew 25:41) because they were created chosen for destruction. This denies the very concept that, in order to be damned, one must, first, reject the sacrifice that Jesus paid on the cross, along with His resurrection. The whole reason for preaching the Gospel is to persuade people to repent and for the opportunity to make a conscious decision for Christ. Rom 10:14-15

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
      Wikipedia's Definition in black, Scripture in purple.

      Before God created the world, he chose to savesome people (You did not choose me, but I chose you; as many as were appointed to eternal life believed; it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy; he chose us in him before the foundation of the world; God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved; who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,") according to his own purposes (God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.; Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.; In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will; according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.; it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.; who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, and apart from any conditions related to those persons (You did not choose me; it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God; who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works; If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.; God credits righteousness apart from works:; not by works but by him who calls; It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.; before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—; And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.; it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.)

      I would say Wikipedia is 2 for 2 so far.




      What if the elect aren't the only ones saved? Is there scripture that says that is the case or that those who aren't the elect will go into the Lake of Fire?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
        Wikipedia's Definition in black, Scripture in purple.

        Before God created the world, he chose to savesome people (You did not choose me, but I chose you; as many as were appointed to eternal life believed; it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy; he chose us in him before the foundation of the world; God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved; who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,") according to his own purposes (God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.; Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.; In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will; according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.; it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.; who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, and apart from any conditions related to those persons (You did not choose me; it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God; who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works; If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.; God credits righteousness apart from works:; not by works but by him who calls; It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.; before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—; And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.; it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.)

        I would say Wikipedia is 2 for 2 so far.
        I would say 0 for 2. Does Wikipedia equal scripture? Scripture clearly teaches that salvation is conditional upon man repenting of his sins (2 Cor 7:9-10, Mark 1:15, Acts 2:38, etc.) and putting his faith and trust in Jesus Christ (John 3:16, John 3:36, Romans 10:9-10, Acts 16:27-34, etc.). Scripture teaches that God desires all people to repent (Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9) and to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son as the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2) so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16).

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
          Wikipedia defines Total Depravity as the following: (definition in black, Scriptures in Purple)

          As a consequence of the Fall of Man (For as in Adam all die; the many died by the trespass of the one man; the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men), every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin ("Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.'"; death came to all men, because all sinned; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin; When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.) and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God (and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus; For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace; And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace; For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—; , is utterly unable to choose to follow God or choose to accept salvation as it is freely offered. ("None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."; "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." "Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins."; 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.'"; "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.")

          Sounds right so far....

          Yuke
          Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
          Wikipedia's Definition in black, Scripture in purple.

          Before God created the world, he chose to savesome people (You did not choose me, but I chose you; as many as were appointed to eternal life believed; it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy; he chose us in him before the foundation of the world; God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved; who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,") according to his own purposes (God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.; Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.; In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will; according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.; it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.; who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, and apart from any conditions related to those persons (You did not choose me; it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God; who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works; If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.; God credits righteousness apart from works:; not by works but by him who calls; It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.; before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—; And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.; it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.)

          I would say Wikipedia is 2 for 2 so far.

          I have to agree Yuke...Wikipedia is on a roll

          Many Blessings,
          RW

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by mikebr View Post
            What if the elect aren't the only ones saved? Is there scripture that says that is the case or that those who aren't the elect will go into the Lake of Fire?
            Mt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

            2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

            The names of the elect are written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world and Christ is the Lamb slain for them (his people) from the foundation of the world. At the Judgment those whose names are not found in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire.

            Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

            Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

            Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

            Therefore only the elect are saved, and if you are not among the elect of God, your name will not be written in His Book, therefore you will be cast into the lake of fire.

            Many Blessings,
            RW

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by mikebr View Post
              What if the elect aren't the only ones saved? Is there scripture that says that is the case or that those who aren't the elect will go into the Lake of Fire?
              Exactly!

              The doctrine of election is completely different from the work-a-day believer who is working out their salvation, and indeed does not apply to them.

              The thing about the eternal elect though, you would never know who they are because they would never presume to be such a one. Nor does not presuming to be such a one, automatically qualify one to be the elect.

              But then again there is a difference between the elect regarding eternity and predestination, and the elect that are Gods people on earth also working out there salvation.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by mikebr View Post
                What if the elect aren't the only ones saved? Is there scripture that says that is the case or that those who aren't the elect will go into the Lake of Fire?
                Judas was one of the elect.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Diolectic View Post
                  Unconditional Election:
                  The doctrine of “Unconditional election” also called “election of the saints” or “Predestination” which comes from Bible verses as Rom 8:29-30, Rom 9:11-16, Eph 1:5, Eph 1:11, and the like. The doctrine of Unconditional election concerns God's decision to determine ahead of time what the destiny of groups and/or individuals will be. God's decision concerning the salvation of people is predetermined before time.

                  The doctrine of Unconditional Election denies man's choice by figuring that if man had free will to choose his own destiny, it would diminish God's sovereignty. This doctrine figures that if God gives an authority to man as freedom to choose or even free will it would diminish His sovereignty or He would not have any ability to perform his own will over that of mans. While in reality, this magnifies God's sovereignty by showing His ability to have government over what man has authority of.

                  This doctrine figures that if God gives an authority to man as freedom to choose, it would be giving some glory to the one willing; however, this is a false Idea in that the one willing is actually glorifying God by acknowledging HIM to be right in HIS charges against mankind. The one willing to be saved is also humbling himself in humiliation by admitting that:
                  1: There is a God which he offended.

                  2: He is a sinner under God's wrath.
                  3: He needs to be saved.
                  4: He can not save himself
                  5: Jesus is the savior.
                  6: All he can do is only repent and believe.

                  The real difficulty here is that the doctrine of Unconditional Election claims that God has elected only a few, while it must explain why He only chooses those who He elects and let the others die impenitent, and suffer eternally in hell without any choice of their own.

                  This doctrine fails to acknowledge that Christ's work on the cross is for all (1John 2:2), but limits Christ's work on the cross for only the elect. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Knowing that the ungodly is the entirity of mankind without Christ.
                  Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.


                  If man is unable to choose his own destiny, there is no justice for hell and hell would not only be created for the devil and his angels, but for man also (Matthew 25:41) because they were created chosen for destruction. This denies the very concept that, in order to be damned, one must, first, reject the sacrifice that Jesus paid on the cross, along with His resurrection. The whole reason for preaching the Gospel is to persuade people to repent and for the opportunity to make a conscious decision for Christ. Rom 10:14-15
                  Excellent post and spot on.
                  I am a Christian man in the Devil's land, spreading the gospel man to man.
                  Have you laid your burdens down?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    paradox

                    Tis a divine paradox: the free will of man and the Soverignty of God. Though opposites in human understanding and yet both true at the same time.

                    "...and whosoever will may come..."

                    is just as valid and true as

                    "chosen from the founation of the world".


                    Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Still have some more threads to start, will come back to this when done.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        So you have to get the other three points of our doctrine posted also? Why not come here to discuss the issues rather than push an agenda?
                        I am a Christian man in the Devil's land, spreading the gospel man to man.
                        Have you laid your burdens down?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Because I wish to address each point separately, though I know they are intertwined.

                          I do not want to discuss Total Depravity and then jump ahead in the same thread to perseverance of the saints.

                          Dominoes...if one fall down, they all fall down.

                          Yuke

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
                            Because I wish to address each point separately, though I know they are intertwined.

                            I do not want to discuss Total Depravity and then jump ahead in the same thread to perseverance of the saints.

                            Dominoes...if one fall down, they all fall down.

                            Yuke
                            I completely understand that, but letting time for discussion before moving on is a key part of a discussion forum. Promote the discussion of the topic to the fullest before moving on would be the best approach. That is all I am getting at here.
                            I am a Christian man in the Devil's land, spreading the gospel man to man.
                            Have you laid your burdens down?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Diolectic View Post
                              Unconditional Election:
                              The doctrine of “Unconditional election” also called “election of the saints” or “Predestination” which comes from Bible verses as Rom 8:29-30, Rom 9:11-16, Eph 1:5, Eph 1:11, and the like. The doctrine of Unconditional election concerns God's decision to determine ahead of time what the destiny of groups and/or individuals will be. God's decision concerning the salvation of people is predetermined before time.

                              The doctrine of Unconditional Election denies man's choice by figuring that if man had free will to choose his own destiny, it would diminish God's sovereignty. This doctrine figures that if God gives an authority to man as freedom to choose or even free will it would diminish His sovereignty or He would not have any ability to perform his own will over that of mans. While in reality, this magnifies God's sovereignty by showing His ability to have government over what man has authority of.

                              This doctrine figures that if God gives an authority to man as freedom to choose, it would be giving some glory to the one willing; however, this is a false Idea in that the one willing is actually glorifying God by acknowledging HIM to be right in HIS charges against mankind. The one willing to be saved is also humbling himself in humiliation by admitting that:
                              1: There is a God which he offended.

                              2: He is a sinner under God's wrath.
                              3: He needs to be saved.
                              4: He can not save himself
                              5: Jesus is the savior.
                              6: All he can do is only repent and believe.

                              The real difficulty here is that the doctrine of Unconditional Election claims that God has elected only a few, while it must explain why He only chooses those who He elects and let the others die impenitent, and suffer eternally in hell without any choice of their own.

                              This doctrine fails to acknowledge that Christ's work on the cross is for all (1John 2:2), but limits Christ's work on the cross for only the elect. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Knowing that the ungodly is the entirity of mankind without Christ.
                              Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.


                              If man is unable to choose his own destiny, there is no justice for hell and hell would not only be created for the devil and his angels, but for man also (Matthew 25:41) because they were created chosen for destruction. This denies the very concept that, in order to be damned, one must, first, reject the sacrifice that Jesus paid on the cross, along with His resurrection. The whole reason for preaching the Gospel is to persuade people to repent and for the opportunity to make a conscious decision for Christ. Rom 10:14-15
                              Great post...I agree...I so dislike the idea of God choosing some to go to hell...I just don't see that in scripture!

                              God bless
                              "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

                              Comment

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