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  • Discussion Are there two dispensational views ?

    Is there two different views of this doctrine? I went to a church for years that taught things that I dont see posted here. I have been on other boards where they also teach the stuff my church did. It seems like on here, the dispenational view is mostly just an end times thing but thats not what I was taught. I was taught that it went from Genesis on and I was taught stuff I now find offensive to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. I could try and explain, but I found a place that says most of it. Is this a minority view I was taught or do most dispensationals believe this?



    Dispensationalist Beliefs - Israel and the Kingdom of God by William E. Cox

    According to dispensationalists, God has two distinct bodies of people with whom he is working: Israel and the church. There is a separate plan for each of these two peoples. Israel is said to be an earthly people, while the church represents a heavenly body. National Israel's expectation is an earthly kingdom; the church's hope is eternal bliss in heaven. While the church realized her goal through belief in the finished work of Christ on the cross, Israel's goal will finally be realized through legal obedience.

    Whereas historic Christianity has held that the purpose of our Lord's first advent was to die on the cross for the sins of the whole world, the dispensationalist teaches that his real purpose was to establish an earthly kingdom. This, they say, was to have been an earthly, political kingdom over which Christ would have ruled from the literal throne of David, and in which all Old Testament prophecies were to be literally fulfilled. That is to say that children would have played with ferocious animals, lions would have eaten hay while oxen ate lion's food, and Jesus would have ruled over all with a rod of iron. This kingdom would have been a perfected continuation of the Davidic kingdom of the Old Testament with David's greater Son, Jesus, ruling in his place for one thousand years.

    Before continuing in a further description of dispensational teaching with reference to this alleged earthly kingdom, we should like to state that this teaching (that Christ aspires to sit on the literal throne of David) is one of the many evidences of the weak Christology in the dispensational system. Even if God should resurrect the throne on which David sat, which throne has long since decayed and turned to dust, it would indeed be a demotion of the lowest order for our Lord, who occupies the throne of heaven, to be a successor to a throne once occupied by an earthly king! And yet this is one of the very highpoints in dispensational eschatology. Jesus, they say, failed once to sit on the throne of David, but at the second advent he is to have that high honor! Our Lord has for nearly two thousand years occupied the throne of which David's throne was a mere type. Peter depicts this in Acts 2:29-36.

    To return now to the dispensational teaching about the kingdom for Israel, they teach that Jesus came to earth the first time fully intending to establish an earthly millennial kingdom with his chosen people, Israel.

    Clarence Larkin (Rightly Dividing the Word, p. 51), in describing the ministry of John the Baptist as a forerunner to Christ, said: 'Prepare the way of the Lord for what? Not for the Cross but for the Kingdom.'

    M.R. DeHaan, well-known radio preacher, made the following statement with reference to the first advent of our Lord (The Second Coming of Jesus, p. 98): ... the kingdom of heaven is the reign of heaven's King on earth. This Jesus offered to the nation of Israel when he came the first time, but they rejected it and he went to the cross..

    W.E. Blackstone (Jesus is Coming, p. 46), who is said to share the honor with C.I. Scofield as one of those who did most to perpetuate dispensationalism in this country, said concerning the first advent: 'He would have set up the kingdom, but they rejected and crucified Him.'

    On page 998 of the Scofield Bible we read that, when Christ appeared the first time on earth to the Jewish people, the next order of revelation as it then stood should have been the setting up of the Davidic kingdom.

    Lewis Sperry Chafer (Systematic Theology) said:
    The kingdom was announced by John the Baptist, Christ and the apostles. The Gospel of the Kingdom (Matt 4:23; 9:35) and the proclamation that the kingdom of heaven was at hand (Matt. 3:2; 4:17; 10:7) consisted of a legitimate offer to Israel of the promised earthly Davidic kingdom, designed particularly for Israel. However, the Jewish nation rejected their King and with him the Kingdom (Quoted from George Ladd, Crucial Questions About the Kingdom of God, p. 50).
    Why did the Christ fail in his attempt to establish a kingdom during his first advent? Dispensationalists say it was because his success depended on the consent of the Jewish nation. S.D. Gordon (Quiet Talks About Jesus, p. 131) says: 'Everything must be done through man's consent.' Commenting further on this he said (sec. 4):
    God proposes, man disposes. God proposed a king, and a worldwide kingdom with great prosperity and peace. Man disposed of that plan, for the bit of time and space controlled by his will.
    The question immediately arises in our minds: If the Jews were able to frustrate God's plan at the first advent of our Lord, then what assurance have we that his second advent will not also somehow be thwarted? We say this rather facetiously, but the fact still remains that our hope of the second coming is built on the success of his first advent. 'Our hope is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness.'

    When the Jews rejected Christ's legitimate offer of the kingdom, say the dispensationalists, that kingdom was then postponed until the second coming of Christ. Then the same earthly Davidic kingdom which they are supposed to have refused will be established in the form of the millennium. During the millennium all the plans which were supposedly thwarted by the Jews at the first advent will be carried out in a literal manner.

    The importance played in dispensational theology by the alleged kingdom which was offered, rejected, and postponed until the millennium, can be seen in the following lengthy doctrinal statement:
    The Magnum Opus of dispensational eschatology will be found in Lewis Sperry Chafer's Systematic Theology, where the entire range of theology is interpreted in the light of dispensational eschatology. From this work we extract the following interpretation of the kingdom of God.

    Two specific realms must be considered: The kingdom of God, which includes all intelligences in heaven or on earth who are willingly subject to God, and the kingdom of heaven, which is the manifestation of the kingdom of God at any time in its earthly form. Thus the kingdom of God appears on earth in various forms or embodiments during the centuries.
    1. There was first of all the kingdom in the Old Testament theocracy in which God ruled over Israel in and through the judges.
    2. The kingdom was covenanted by God as he entered into unconditional covenant with David and gave to Israel its national hope of a permanent earthly kingdom (2 Sam 7).
    3. The kingdom was predicted by the prophets as a glorious kingdom for Israel on earth when the Messianic Son of David would sit on David's throne and rule over the nations from Jerusalem.
    4. The kingdom was announced by John the Baptist, Christ, and the apostles. The Gospel of the kingdom (Matt 4:23; 9:35) and the proclamation that the kingdom of heaven was at hand (Matt 3:2; 4:17; 10:7) consisted of a legitimate offer to Israel of the promised earthly Davidic kingdom, designed particularly for Israel. However, the Jewish nation rejected their king and with Him, the kingdom.
    5. Because of Israel's rejection, the kingdom was postponed until the second advent of Christ. The millennial kingdom was offered, and postponed; but it will be instituted on earth after Christ's return. Since the kingdom was postponed it is a great error to attempt, as is so commonly done, to build a kingdom on the first advent of Christ as its basis, for, according to the Scriptures, the kingdom which was offered to Israel was rejected and is therefore delayed, to be realized only with the second advent of Christ.
    6. The kingdom, because it was rejected and postponed, entered a mystery form (Matt 13) for the present age This mystery form of the kingdom has to do with the Church age when the kingdom of heaven is embodied in Christendom. God is now ruling on the earth insofar as the parables of the mystery of the kingdom of heaven require. In this mystery phase of the kingdom, good and evil mingle together and are to grow together until Christ returns.
    7. The kingdom is to be reannounced by a Jewish remnant of 144,000 in final anticipation of Messiah's return. At the beginning of the great tribulation, which occurs immediately before the return of Christ, the Church will be raptured, taken out of the world, to be with Christ. An election of Israel is then sealed by God to proclaim throughout all the world the Gospel of the kingdom (Matt 24:14), i.e., that the Davidic kingdom, the kingdom of heaven, is about to be set up.
    8. The millennial kingdom will then be realized as Christ returns in power and glory at the conclusion of the tribulation. Then Israel, which has been gathered from its dispersion through the earth to Messiah, will accept Him as such, and will enter the millennial kingdom as the covenanted people (George E. Ladd, Crucial Questions About the Kingdom of God, pp. 50,51).
    Noting again that dispensationalists teach the kingdom to have been offered, rejected, and postponed until a later age, we pose the question: What if the Jews had accepted Jesus' offer to establish an earthly Davidic kingdom at his first advent? According to dispensationalist teaching, people would then have been saved by legal obedience. In the light of this fact, dispensationalism would also teach - when carried to its logical conclusion - that the cross would not have been necessary as a means of salvation.

    more here http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/ar...sp?id=9|21|178

    I was taught that the words of Jesus are not for the church but were part of the old law and many more things that I just cannot believe now. Are these commonly held beliefs in dispensational circles or did I just fall in with the wrong crowd?

    blessings
    My soul does GLORIFY the LORD, my spirit REJOICES in GOD MY SAVIOUR
    ------
    "To be entirely safe from the devils snares the man of God must be completely obedient to the Word of the Lord. The driver on the highway is safe, not when he reads the signs but when he obeys them." A.W.Tozer

    The Lifehouse Skit

  • #2
    <deleted>

    I checked out the website. No comment.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by IBWatching View Post
      <deleted>

      I checked out the website. No comment.

      thank you for telling us that you are not going to say anything.

      Comment


      • #4
        Maybe a mod could move this to the end times forum...I think you would get more replies on there. I have never studied this...though I hear people say they believe in the dispensational view but this whole description is nothing at all like I have ever heard!

        Lewis Sperry Chafer (Systematic Theology) said:

        The kingdom was announced by John the Baptist, Christ and the apostles. The Gospel of the Kingdom (Matt 4:23; 9:35) and the proclamation that the kingdom of heaven was at hand (Matt. 3:2; 4:17; 10:7) consisted of a legitimate offer to Israel of the promised earthly Davidic kingdom, designed particularly for Israel. However, the Jewish nation rejected their King and with him the Kingdom (Quoted from George Ladd, Crucial Questions About the Kingdom of God, p. 50).
        He seems to overlook the part of Christ saying...My kingdom is not of this world. Jesus never came to have a literal kingdom...though that is exactly what the Jews were looking for and wanting! I am sure if a literal kingdom had been offered..they would have gladly took it.

        Why did the Christ fail in his attempt to establish a kingdom during his first advent? Dispensationalists say it was because his success depended on the consent of the Jewish nation. S.D. Gordon (Quiet Talks About Jesus, p. 131) says: 'Everything must be done through man's consent.' Commenting further on this he said (sec. 4):

        God proposes, man disposes. God proposed a king, and a worldwide kingdom with great prosperity and peace. Man disposed of that plan, for the bit of time and space controlled by his will.
        That Jesus intended to literally rule on earth but needed the Jews to approve it!? that is so outrageous...where is the scripture on that? Good grief...

        So His plans were changed...wowie...

        I have to say I couldn't even read through this and understand it fully...I was getting utterly lost..is very confusing.

        I wanted to show you what many pre-trib rapture believers go by...though this isn't a complete list by any means:

        Pre-Tribulation

        The Pre-Tribulation rapture is the view that the rapture will occur before the beginning of the Tribulation period. According to this view, the Christian Church that existed prior to that seven-year period has no vital role during the seven years of Tribulation, and will therefore be removed. Many people who accept Christ after the rapture will be martyred for their faith during the Tribulation (Rev 20:4). Saint John the Divine, which some believe is the apostle John, is seen in Revelation 4:1 as representing the Church caught up to Heaven. John hears the Trumpet and a voice that says, "Come up hither", and he is translated in the Spirit to Heaven and then sees what will happen for those left on earth. The Pre-Tribulation rapture is the most widely held position among American Evangelical Christians. It has become popular in recent years around the world and through the work of dispensational preachers such as Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost, Tim LaHaye, Dr. J. Vernon McGee, Chuck Smith, Dr. Chuck Missler, Dr. Jack Van Impe, Dr. Grant Jeffrey, and Dr. David Jeremiah. [13]

        Some who believe in a Pre-Tribulation rapture warn that the rapture is imminent, saying that all of the prophecies concerning the latter days have been fulfilled to the extent that the rapture could take place at any moment. Others suggest that certain requirements must first be met before a rapture can occur, such as these:

        1. The nations of the world must unify their currency onto a universal standard.
        2. There will be peace in Israel (Ezekiel 38).
        3. There will be a one-world government, to correspond to the 7th beast of Revelation, prior to the Antichrist's 8th beast government.
        4. The Jewish temple in Jerusalem must be rebuilt in its original place.
        5. Observance of Old Testament commandments concerning animal sacrifices must be reinstated.
        6. There will be a great falling away and the Antichrist will be revealed. 2 Thessalonians 2

        Dispensationalist Premillenialists (such as many Evangelicals, especially in the USA) hold the return of Christ to be in two stages. 1Thessalonians 4:15-17 is seen to be a preliminary event to the return described in Matthew 24:29-31. Although both describe a return of Jesus in the clouds with angelic activity, trumpets, heavenly signs, and a gathering of the saints, these are seen to be two separate events, the first unseen, and the second public. Dispensationalists are divided, however, on whether the first event comes before a period of Tribulation, or midway through it.
        '

        Sorry I couldn't find a better site that explains it better. They believe the New Heaven and New Earth will be created and they will physically and literally rule with Jesus for a thousand years...then there will be an uprising...the whole Gog and Magog thing and these wicked will try to over take Christ and He and His saints will destroy them. I forget exactly where the Great White Throne Judgment comes in there...oh and before this big battle, satan is releases from the pit...Revelation 20 I think...

        Anyway this is what I was raised with...what I was taught..the pre-trib view...this stuff you posted..I never heard of it and I don't know anyone that has. Every pre-trib rapture believer...including at the last church I attended...them, on here...they all believe pretty much like I laid out here with a few minor changes here and there I am sure...

        You know while I don't agree with this view, at least they have scriptures to point too...I would love to see the scriptures used, if any, for this first view you have posted...

        This scripture comes strongly into my mind though:

        Galatians 1

        Only One Gospel

        6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.


        The Lord KNEW, He Knew Israel would reject Jesus! His plans weren't messed up at all! Jesus never ever came to establish a physical kingdom just for the Jews to start with..

        John 18:35-37

        35 “Am I a Jew?” Pilate retorted. “Your own people and their leading priests brought you to me for trial. Why? What have you done?”

        36 Jesus answered, “My Kingdom is not an earthly kingdom. If it were, my followers would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish leaders. But my Kingdom is not of this world.”

        37 Pilate said, “So you are a king?”

        Jesus responded, “You say I am a king. Actually, I was born and came into the world to testify to the truth. All who love the truth recognize that what I say is true.”


        God bless
        "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

        Comment


        • #5
          Yes, you had dispensation of law under the Mosaic system and then the dispensation of grace after the death and resurrection of Jesus.

          Comment


          • #6
            Thankyou moonglow and MrAnteater for your replies. I realise that there are various different dispensations in the dispensational view.

            What I meant was do all dispensationalists believe or teach that Jesus came to set up His earthly Kingdom but was rejected by the Jews and was crucified instead?

            Do they all believe that the red letters in our bibles were for the old covenant and not for us in the new?

            That each dispensation had a different way in which men were saved?

            This is what I was taught and what my church taught. I have read books on this subject that say this and see that the Skofield reverence bible seems to promote these understandings too. I'm just trying to understand if this is a common dispensational view or not.

            At least you did not get taught this moonglow.

            blessings
            My soul does GLORIFY the LORD, my spirit REJOICES in GOD MY SAVIOUR
            ------
            "To be entirely safe from the devils snares the man of God must be completely obedient to the Word of the Lord. The driver on the highway is safe, not when he reads the signs but when he obeys them." A.W.Tozer

            The Lifehouse Skit

            Comment


            • #7
              people who dont hold to dispensationalism love to be the ones who difine it

              Those who hold a position are the ones who should be listened to regarding what it it is.

              I find non dispensationalists love to characterize it in the most ugly ungainly and dishonest of terms... In fact it seems to be a prerequisite of Christianity sometimes....

              "Excuse me, Are you a Christian?"
              Answer 'YES'
              "Can you define this rock for me please?"
              Answer "YES, it a sinful piece of lava from the bowels of hell spit
              up by the demons for the purpose of undermining the foundations
              of the earth"

              "But its only a rock!"
              Answer: "Yes to you, but I am a Christian and straightforward
              definitions don't come easily to me. Why dont you ask me about
              Barack Obama?"

              "Ermmmm...No thanks"


              Dispensationalist dont necessarily seperate Israel and the church in some unique or non scriptural way or replace one with the other per se. Some do, MANY dont, I dont.

              The word dispensation comes from the greek word for house manager (OIKONIMIA) from which we also get the word economy.

              By example, each president has an economic policy. Just becasue one president wants to lower taxes does that mean all do? That is ridiculous. Just because one believer claims there is a dipensation that seperates the church and israel doesnt mean they all do.

              Simply put dispensationalism means that through history God has modified the manner in which he manages the affairs of man, or the way man is to manage his affairs with one another, or man with animals etc... there are many dispensations.

              Dietary ones: in the garden Adam was probably VEGAN, then after falling into sin he ate anything. Later we see Moses giving Gods instruction about clean and unclean animals, and about personal hygiene issues. Later yet we see Paul updating this issue further and saying anything goes.

              Temple ones: There are dispensations for the temple that no longer apply,

              Women:there are dispensations for women that are changed and for slaves, and for many things.

              These rule changes are inumerable. When I hear people saying there are 2,5,7,9 or more dispensations I cringe at the effort to simplify what isnt complex to begin with. God has always been developing us and always will.
              Would you classify your life a 7 major periods of time? How utterly ridiculous.

              When you were raised did not your life DEVELOP?
              are you still in diapers?
              Are you still not allowed to touch the stove?
              Play with fire?
              Fry food?
              Carry money?
              use electricity?
              At one time none of these things were true, now all of these things are different because you grew up. The Bible reveals subtle and large changes in almost every chapter.

              When someone tries to define dispensationalism as something other than the way God has changes a rule, principle or issue...Do not be offended, just smile and ignore them.
              Dragonfighter1
              Vivo est Ministro

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks Dragonfighter1, I guess you dont hold to a typical dispensational view. So you dont believe Jesus came to set up His earthly Kindgom and failed then? Or any of the other things I was taught( see above)? This is not teaching from a non dispensational view (although I did use a link from a non disp view) this is what I was taught in my church bible study and Sunday school and they fully believed it.

                blessings
                My soul does GLORIFY the LORD, my spirit REJOICES in GOD MY SAVIOUR
                ------
                "To be entirely safe from the devils snares the man of God must be completely obedient to the Word of the Lord. The driver on the highway is safe, not when he reads the signs but when he obeys them." A.W.Tozer

                The Lifehouse Skit

                Comment


                • #9
                  Wikepedia gives a very good summary of this topic:

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism (Classical Dispensationalism)

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progres...pensationalism (Progressive Dispensationalism)

                  Don't rely on the average adherent to explain Dispensationalism. There are many finer points that dispensational pastors and laypeople disagree on. You're better suited to read published defenses. They'll give you a better overview of the whole system.

                  Recommended reading:

                  Three Central Issues in Contemporary Dispensationalism: A Comparison of Traditional & Progressive Views by Darrell L. Bock, Elliott Johnson, J. Lanier Burns, and Stanley D. Toussaint

                  Progressive Dispensationalism by Craig A. Blaising and Darrell L. Bock

                  Dispensationalism, Israel and the Church by Craig A. Blaising and Darrel L. Bock

                  Most even-handed critique of Dispensationalism:

                  Understanding Dispensationalists by Vern S. Poythress

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks scourge39, I'm not looking for a deeper understanding of it all, just trying to see if anybody on here believes or was taught what I was taught.

                    blessings
                    My soul does GLORIFY the LORD, my spirit REJOICES in GOD MY SAVIOUR
                    ------
                    "To be entirely safe from the devils snares the man of God must be completely obedient to the Word of the Lord. The driver on the highway is safe, not when he reads the signs but when he obeys them." A.W.Tozer

                    The Lifehouse Skit

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Indueseason View Post
                      Thanks scourge39, I'm not looking for a deeper understanding of it all, just trying to see if anybody on here believes or was taught what I was taught.

                      blessings
                      Just out of curiosity, do you come from a Pentecostal background? They make some major modifications to the system and tend to present it differently.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I was taught this in a non denominational church, but I think the Pastor may have had a Pentecostal background.So this is not a regular teaching?

                        blessings
                        My soul does GLORIFY the LORD, my spirit REJOICES in GOD MY SAVIOUR
                        ------
                        "To be entirely safe from the devils snares the man of God must be completely obedient to the Word of the Lord. The driver on the highway is safe, not when he reads the signs but when he obeys them." A.W.Tozer

                        The Lifehouse Skit

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          EVERYONE is a dispensationalist.
                          They MUST be....
                          Unless they believe that ADAM did not sin.
                          You see from that sin God changed the way he dealt with man. So, its not fair to even use the word dispensational when talking about the church/Israel issue, or the failure of Christ's mission (?is that really a position you were taught? WOW!) or any other theological understanding.
                          Dispensational means what I said earlier, it therefore cant be used as a term to describe theological positions as ALL theological positions are dispensational (recognize the changing relationship between God and man in one way or another).

                          Whateve theology you were taught, or shown, just because someone wanted to sic a 25 cent word on it to sound officious, important, or more qualified to teach, doesnt mean a hoot!

                          I believe your question would take you much further if you could figure out how to rephrase it more specifically: as in .... DO you believe Christ failed his mission? etc....
                          All the best,
                          df
                          Dragonfighter1
                          Vivo est Ministro

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Indueseason View Post
                            Is there two different views of this doctrine? I went to a church for years that taught things that I dont see posted here. I have been on other boards where they also teach the stuff my church did. It seems like on here, the dispenational view is mostly just an end times thing but thats not what I was taught. I was taught that it went from Genesis on and I was taught stuff I now find offensive to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. I could try and explain, but I found a place that says most of it. Is this a minority view I was taught or do most dispensationals believe this?


                            I was taught that the words of Jesus are not for the church but were part of the old law and many more things that I just cannot believe now. Are these commonly held beliefs in dispensational circles or did I just fall in with the wrong crowd?

                            blessings
                            Hi Indueseason (what an appropriate name).

                            I'm quite familiar with what you've presented. That was the traditional view of dispensational theology at it's beginning.

                            This quote pretty much says it all.
                            "Systematic Theology, where the entire range of theology is interpreted in the light of dispensational eschatology"
                            The use of "systemic theology" to come to "dispensational eschatology" (eschatology means an end times view).

                            I've never heard " the words of Jesus are not for the church but were part of the old law " being part of that traditional dispensational view.

                            There is even a bible, the KJV Companion bible with EW Bullingers critical notes and appendixes. EW Bullinger (1837-1913) was a traditional dispensationalist. I've studied that bible, and still use it for critical notes from time to time. But I do not agree with dispensational theology. As even you have come to see it is flawed. I am even surprised that EW Bullinger didn't see the flaws with his critical notes. And he was an Anglican (Anglican's don't traditionally hold this view). But that was his theological perspective, not an Anglican one.

                            To answer your questions. Yes it has come to be a minority view, though there are a majority of Christians who still use parts of it to build on their theological eschatology. Parts of it are commonly held beliefs among the different churches, so there is more than one or two dispensational views.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Indueseason View Post
                              Thanks Dragonfighter1, I guess you dont hold to a typical dispensational view. So you dont believe Jesus came to set up His earthly Kindgom and failed then? Or any of the other things I was taught( see above)? This is not teaching from a non dispensational view (although I did use a link from a non disp view) this is what I was taught in my church bible study and Sunday school and they fully believed it.

                              blessings
                              There were some things in that article that sounded familiar...that I have seen held in certain end time views...but the article itself was very confusing for me because this author was trying to refute it...not explain it... So as far as God dealing separately with the Jews and the rest of us..if that is called dispensational...or some type of it..then that is more common...some argue God deals with all of us the same way now..no special treatment at all for the Jews...so I have seen that discussed on the end time forum.


                              But this idea Jesus had the intention of setting up an earthly kingdom but failed...I have never ever heard of that...not on here, not by any Christians I have even known. What scriptures do they use for that? I would be curious to know.

                              Was it just this church that taught this view?

                              God bless
                              "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

                              Comment

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