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  • Forgiven

    Today people think they have to ask God to forgive them for the sins that God is no longer charging to their account in the first place. Ministers of righteousness would have people believe God is not totally reconciled in his mind. The great usurper and his fellow usurpers want to keep sin on the table of Godís justice today, as much in the age of grace as he has in the other ages.
    Godís Reconciliation of Man, read more about it at http://godsreconciliation.blogspot.com/

  • #2
    Re: Forgiven

    I understand that because of the blood of Jesus and God's immense grace no matter how many times I screw up I am forgiven I don't have to fear a lightning bolt striking me because I am sinner, however his grace is also not a free ticket to sin.
    I screw up much more than I want to and while I know I am always forgiven I still ask for forgiveness when I screw up out of respect for him.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Forgiven

      Originally posted by Blain View Post
      I understand that because of the blood of Jesus and God's immense grace no matter how many times I screw up I am forgiven I don't have to fear a lightning bolt striking me because I am sinner, however his grace is also not a free ticket to sin.
      I screw up much more than I want to and while I know I am always forgiven I still ask for forgiveness when I screw up out of respect for him.
      Paul was not talking about Christianizing the flesh, making it better flesh, capable of doing more things, he was talking about holding the flesh back, keeping it down. 


      Paul was motivated to keep his desires of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life, to keep it at bay and not let that reign supreme when it came to his activities and his actions. 


      Paul was being honest with himself and with us, when it came to the capacity of his flesh to merit righteousness before God through performance, if God was going to righteousify ungodly people, it would have to be freely by his grace, it could come no other way. 


      People’s performance could not be allowed to enter the picture. God would have to use belief rather than behavior as the criterion whereby to join believers to his son. Could there have been a sin or two, or maybe a few left over when Christ died for the sin debt of the world, for which God’s justice was not satisfied, a sin in the future? 


      God’s justice was satisfied where the sins of the world are concerned, God reconciled the world unto himself, as Paul tells us.
      Godís Reconciliation of Man, read more about it at http://godsreconciliation.blogspot.com/

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Forgiven

        Originally posted by Blain View Post
        I understand that because of the blood of Jesus and God's immense grace no matter how many times I screw up I am forgiven I don't have to fear a lightning bolt striking me because I am sinner, however his grace is also not a free ticket to sin.
        I screw up much more than I want to and while I know I am always forgiven I still ask for forgiveness when I screw up out of respect for him.
        Rather than praying, “Please forgive me for that sin,” when we are supposed to be believing God is not counting it to our account, because he charged it to his son, we can say, “Thank you for the forgiveness we already have in Christ.”
        Godís Reconciliation of Man, read more about it at http://godsreconciliation.blogspot.com/

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Forgiven

          Originally posted by newnature View Post
          Rather than praying, “Please forgive me for that sin,” when we are supposed to be believing God is not counting it to our account, because he charged it to his son, we can say, “Thank you for the forgiveness we already have in Christ.”
          I agree with what you are saying knowing that His attributes are eternal (from beginning to end). Therefore His forgiveness is also eternal- He forgave us before we even made it here but i'm also confused because there are indications that our forgiveness is repeated several times and it actually depends on how we treat other people: like in our Lords prayer

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Forgiven

            Originally posted by newnature View Post
            Paul was not talking about Christianizing the flesh, making it better flesh, capable of doing more things, he was talking about holding the flesh back, keeping it down. 


            Paul was motivated to keep his desires of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life, to keep it at bay and not let that reign supreme when it came to his activities and his actions. 


            Paul was being honest with himself and with us, when it came to the capacity of his flesh to merit righteousness before God through performance, if God was going to righteousify ungodly people, it would have to be freely by his grace, it could come no other way. 


            People’s performance could not be allowed to enter the picture. God would have to use belief rather than behavior as the criterion whereby to join believers to his son. Could there have been a sin or two, or maybe a few left over when Christ died for the sin debt of the world, for which God’s justice was not satisfied, a sin in the future? 


            God’s justice was satisfied where the sins of the world are concerned, God reconciled the world unto himself, as Paul tells us.
            I wasn't talking about Christianizing the flesh either, I also keep my fleshly desires at bay however I don't do it with my own strength and my own efforts I allow God to help me and to empower me to do so I rely 100% on him and his power not my own. I have no room in my heart for pride or for any fleshly trait, now as for me not ever having to ask for forgiveness again I do so out of respect but I always have a repentant heart that is what makes the difference in knowing and understanding grace.

            One who does not have a repentant heart sees grace as a free ticket to sin I have seen this many times and they don't understand grace, some however beat themselves up every time they screw up they don't understand how deep his grace is they believe they are filthy not good enough they believe they are to far gone and ask themselves how could God ever love for forgive someone like me?
            These are the people that grace needs to be shown and taught to the most, they are bound by chains they place on themselves and Jesus has the key

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Forgiven

              Originally posted by Moose View Post
              I agree with what you are saying knowing that His attributes are eternal (from beginning to end). Therefore His forgiveness is also eternal- He forgave us before we even made it here but i'm also confused because there are indications that our forgiveness is repeated several times and it actually depends on how we treat other people: like in our Lords prayer
              Most people think in those terms because most people fail to properly understand justification, the cornerstone that comes prior to sanctification. If we misunderstand justification, we are going to have a difficult time understanding sanctification. 


              Since people link a justified standing before God with performance of their own, they also link a sanctified standing before God with their own performance. And as a result, they believe the degree to which they stand sanctified in Godís eyes depends entirely upon the degree to which they remain holy in behavior. 


              If they do not see themselves as being holy in conduct, they do not believe that God sees them as being holy, either. We need to understand that forgiveness was all upfront and all-inclusive, but when we accept this idea of conditional forgiveness/forgiveness on the installment plan; a little forgiveness here, a little forgiveness there, the need for new forgiveness for new sin, that is the atonement program of Israel, not the reconciliation program of the body of Christ.
              Godís Reconciliation of Man, read more about it at http://godsreconciliation.blogspot.com/

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Forgiven

                Originally posted by Blain View Post
                I wasn't talking about Christianizing the flesh either, I also keep my fleshly desires at bay however I don't do it with my own strength and my own efforts I allow God to help me and to empower me to do so I rely 100% on him and his power not my own. I have no room in my heart for pride or for any fleshly trait, now as for me not ever having to ask for forgiveness again I do so out of respect but I always have a repentant heart that is what makes the difference in knowing and understanding grace.

                One who does not have a repentant heart sees grace as a free ticket to sin I have seen this many times and they don't understand grace, some however beat themselves up every time they screw up they don't understand how deep his grace is they believe they are filthy not good enough they believe they are to far gone and ask themselves how could God ever love for forgive someone like me?
                These are the people that grace needs to be shown and taught to the most, they are bound by chains they place on themselves and Jesus has the key
                Paul called the carnal believers at Corinth saints because even though they were carnal, they had believed Paul’s good news. Saint is God’s word for a believer, he sets us apart. Jesus Christ’s death was sufficient to satisfy God’s righteous demand for justice. 


                When God looks at the believing sinner, God sees his very own son and what does Paul address every believer, even the carnal saints at Corinth? He calls them Saints! God’s attitude towards a believer does not fluctuate in response to action, it is not condition on our behavior.
                Godís Reconciliation of Man, read more about it at http://godsreconciliation.blogspot.com/

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Forgiven

                  Originally posted by newnature View Post
                  Most people think in those terms because most people fail to properly understand justification, the cornerstone that comes prior to sanctification. If we misunderstand justification, we are going to have a difficult time understanding sanctification. 


                  Since people link a justified standing before God with performance of their own, they also link a sanctified standing before God with their own performance. And as a result, they believe the degree to which they stand sanctified in God’s eyes depends entirely upon the degree to which they remain holy in behavior. 


                  If they do not see themselves as being holy in conduct, they do not believe that God sees them as being holy, either. We need to understand that forgiveness was all upfront and all-inclusive, but when we accept this idea of conditional forgiveness/forgiveness on the installment plan; a little forgiveness here, a little forgiveness there, the need for new forgiveness for new sin, that is the atonement program of Israel, not the reconciliation program of the body of Christ.
                  I'm getting you but in Jesus' clear words:

                  Mat 6:11'Give us this day our daily bread. 12'And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
                  Mat 18:33 Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?'

                  Jesus even gives us a preview of what is going to be during judgement and it is very clear that our relationship with others is the key determinant (off course after believing He died for our sins and rose).
                  It is also said that all commandment is summarized into simply "love your neighbor" And this is the greatest commandment of all.

                  Mat 25:38'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Forgiven

                    I'm getting you but in Jesus' clear words:

                    Mat 6:11'Give us this day our daily bread. 12'And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
                    Mat 18:33 Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?'


                    Before that kingdom could be realized, there was a prophetic event that had to take place first. The way Jesus taught has special application to that tribulation period to those people who were being taught to pray in this manner. This will be a very heartfelt prayer during the tribulation period. During the time of Jacob’s trouble, the Israelites will be under tremendous persecution from the antichrist. He will be putting Israelites to death for their faith. The Israelites will be praying at that time, “thy kingdom come” the promised earthly kingdom to be set up right here on earth, because the only hope of deliverance for the believing Israelites at that time, will be the coming of the king and setting up of the earthly kingdom. 


                    “Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven” is a divine definition of the millennium. The kingdom is when the will of Yahweh is carried out in the earth to the same degree it is carried out in heaven. The Israelites have an earthly hope, they were promised the earth forever. At the time when Israel will be facing the wrath of Satan - the time that Israel was being prepared for when they were being taught how to pray - Satan will have been kicked out of the heaven and cast down to the earth and Yahweh’s will, will indeed be being done in the realm where Satan has just been cast out. 


                    This prayer is appropriate for the Israelites of that day, they will be praying at that time just as the disciples had been taught to pray. It is recited in churches across the country in our day. It is recited as though it is a prayer for today. While we are not to use vain repetition, it is recited like vain repetition as people stand up and uttering together. At the time this prayer was being taught to pray “our Father” meant that you recognized, if you were an Israelite, that you had a covenant relationship with Yahweh; you were his children. 


                    These saints of the earthly kingdom program will be praying in the day “Give us this day our daily bread.” They will be worrying about that day, not the next day as that earthly kingdom becomes a reality for those Israelites. “Debtors” Israel’s status as a nation above all nations depended on this very thing. The believers of Israel will be seeking forgiveness in respect to their willingness to forgive. Yahweh will not restore that nation to a place of national prominence above all nations of the earth until they adhere to the exhortation, forgive us our sins as WE (corporately) are willing to forgive those who have sinned against us.


                    Jesus even gives us a preview of what is going to be during judgement and it is very clear that our relationship with others is the key determinant (off course after believing He died for our sins and rose).
                    It is also said that all commandment is summarized into simply "love your neighbor" And this is the greatest commandment of all.

                    Mat 25:38'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.



                    There will be a requirement to escape the judgment of God, and it will not be by anything that we do. We must be justified on the basis of believing in what Christ has already done on our behalf, but unless we qualify what believing in God means, our belief in God will do us absolutely no good! 


                    For anyone to think they are just before God through their performance, to think that they have perfected themselves with God through their behavior proves that they are a liar, and the truth is not in them. 


                    All people are wrath-worthy, there is none good, no not even one, we have all gone out of the way, we all are continually coming short of the righteousness of God himself, and therefore we are in need of a justification that will come totally apart from anything that we do. God has kept the fingerprints of the guilt-worthy off the the righteousness he designed for the guilt-worthy! 


                    Religion continues to make sin the issue, and then gives people a way to take care of that problem. How many have grown up with the idea that God has to make a decision whether or not to forgive us for our sins? God has not held back his wrath because he is happy with who we think we are, or because he is satisfied with who we are trying to become. 


                    God has been long-suffering in holding back his wrath because he hopes that we will consider his goodness through what his son accomplished for us and flee to his grace. God wants us to change our mind about who we are from a fleshly perspective apart from Christ.
                    Godís Reconciliation of Man, read more about it at http://godsreconciliation.blogspot.com/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Forgiven

                      Originally posted by newnature View Post
                      Today people think they have to ask God to forgive them for the sins that God is no longer charging to their account in the first place. Ministers of righteousness would have people believe God is not totally reconciled in his mind. The great usurper and his fellow usurpers want to keep sin on the table of God’s justice today, as much in the age of grace as he has in the other ages.
                      Simon became a believer, accepted Christ and was baptized by Phillip, Simon is now a member of the Body of Christ. Yet, days/weeks later when the Apostles arrived and he sinned before Peter, what does Peter tell him? I will point out that what Simon is told by Peter completely refutes the meaning of what you are saying here.

                      Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.



                      If Simon believed as you do... what do you think he would do? I bet he'd tell Peter that he's repented once days/weeks ago and that he don't need to repent.

                      But yet, what does Simon do?

                      Let me know when I need to raise the issue of James 5:16 to refute more of what you are saying.
                      Slug1--out

                      ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Forgiven

                        Originally posted by newnature View Post

                        There will be a requirement to escape the judgment of God, and it will not be by anything that we do. We must be justified on the basis of believing in what Christ has already done on our behalf, but unless we qualify what believing in God means, our belief in God will do us absolutely no good! 


                        For anyone to think they are just before God through their performance, to think that they have perfected themselves with God through their behavior proves that they are a liar, and the truth is not in them.
                        I agree that our works especially towards righteousness are nothing. i.e trying hard to live by the law of Moses But you must understand there's a new covenant where the law is written in our hearts. How do we achieve this- believing in the words of Jesus or believing in Jesus who fulfills the law But Jesus also leaves us with a command to love our neighbors:

                        Mat 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets

                        Gal 5:14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

                        You can never love God who you don't see and hate your brother who you see.

                        The expression of love to our neighbors or our interaction to our neighbors is only through our actions and our words. Jesus gives as a scenario during judgement and it is about love for our neighbors. Faith without actions is dead as always and just remember demons also know Jesus and they tremble- believing in Jesus alone does not do it.

                        James 2:19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Forgiven

                          Originally posted by Moose View Post
                          I agree that our works especially towards righteousness are nothing. i.e trying hard to live by the law of Moses But you must understand there's a new covenant where the law is written in our hearts. How do we achieve this- believing in the words of Jesus or believing in Jesus who fulfills the law But Jesus also leaves us with a command to love our neighbors:

                          Mat 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets

                          Gal 5:14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

                          You can never love God who you don't see and hate your brother who you see.

                          The expression of love to our neighbors or our interaction to our neighbors is only through our actions and our words. Jesus gives as a scenario during judgement and it is about love for our neighbors. Faith without actions is dead as always and just remember demons also know Jesus and they tremble- believing in Jesus alone does not do it.

                          James 2:19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
                          Paul knew that his identity in Christ was not based upon his performance, he also knew that his identity in Christ was not based upon his success at loving others. Paul exercised himself according to what Paul called the law of Christ, preferring others above self. 


                          We can thank God that our identity with Christ is based solely upon our union with his son, and not upon our success at loving others. While Paul was not under the law of Christ, he willingly placed himself under the law to Christ, when it came to his love for others, there is a difference in the two. 


                          Even though we are not under the law in this dispensation of grace, the law can still serve as valid function today for those who have yet to believe the gospel, and are dealing with God according to law principle. 


                          Understand, being delivered or set free from the law as the program whereby God is dealing with people today, does not mean that the law no longer stands as a perfect picture of what it would take to earn a perfectly righteous standing with God, if our performance was part of that equation, and if that were a possibility, which it is not. 


                          Paul shows how sin actually makes great use of that law against an individual, with a proper understanding of the two, we find that there is nothing at all wrong with the law. The problem lies with sin and with the moral choice of good and bad that is in us given the first Adam’s decision.


                          According to Israel’s New Covenant, when would Yahweh finish what forgiveness alone would not accomplish where Israel’s sins were concerned? When would the forgiveness come? At what time would Yahweh completely clear the slate for Israel nationally-those believers who had been baptized according to John the Baptizer’s program? The blood of the second Adam would make it possible, but when would that total clearing of the accounts take place for Israel?
                          Godís Reconciliation of Man, read more about it at http://godsreconciliation.blogspot.com/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Forgiven

                            Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                            Simon became a believer, accepted Christ and was baptized by Phillip, Simon is now a member of the Body of Christ. Yet, days/weeks later when the Apostles arrived and he sinned before Peter, what does Peter tell him? I will point out that what Simon is told by Peter completely refutes the meaning of what you are saying here.

                            Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.



                            If Simon believed as you do... what do you think he would do? I bet he'd tell Peter that he's repented once days/weeks ago and that he don't need to repent.

                            But yet, what does Simon do?

                            Let me know when I need to raise the issue of James 5:16 to refute more of what you are saying.
                            When Paul refers to us as the called, he is referring not just to the fact that God is extending a call to us, an invitation or summons. Paul’s also referring to the fact that God’s calling us to participate in that to which we have been called, the Body of Christ, participation in that which we have been called to.


                            When a person believes in the reality of reconciliation, that person becomes an instantaneous member of the new creation called the Body of Christ. We should be very grateful that we are saved by the faith of Jesus Christ, his faith accomplished our salvation. 


                            So, being freed up from all these suffering circumstances is not just liberty, it is a glorious liberty. The sufferings of this present lifetime are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us, that is HOPE. God is not causing bad things to happen to bad people and good things to happen to good people. 


                            God is not raining down suffering circumstances to bring bad people in line and he is not raining down similar adverse circumstances on good people that have gone bad to keep those people in line. 


                            If we could pray these circumstances away, what hope would we need, our hope would reside right here in praying them away. When Christ returns in the air to catch us up to be with him, our suffering situations will forever be a thing of the past. 


                            Why would God want the offense to increase, the offense was already there and God gave an opportunity through that law program for it to really come out, and show itself for what it was and for what it is in us. So, the moral choice of good and bad used the law to bring forth fruit unto death. 


                            From God’s judicial point of view, we are no longer in that position, we have a new identity. Would more righteousness be needed than the Savior’s righteousness, or is God requiring that we add our righteous works to Christ’s righteousness that we might become righteous indeed, or is Christ’s righteousness the only righteousness from God’s perspective, his saints will ever need?
                            Godís Reconciliation of Man, read more about it at http://godsreconciliation.blogspot.com/

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Forgiven

                              Originally posted by newnature View Post
                              Today people think they have to ask God to forgive them for the sins that God is no longer charging to their account in the first place. Ministers of righteousness would have people believe God is not totally reconciled in his mind. The great usurper and his fellow usurpers want to keep sin on the table of God’s justice today, as much in the age of grace as he has in the other ages.
                              God doesn't ask us to ask for forgiveness, He asks us to REPENT.
                              Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

                              Comment

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