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  • Time in heaven?

    For a long time now I guess I have been considering heaven to be outside of time. Lately I have been thinking heaven must have a timeline of itís own in some way. Itís thrown a wrench into the way I look at some things.

    What do you think?

  • #2
    I believe that this question answers many of the messed up ideas we seem to stumble on.

    Silly arguments like OSAS, and election are no more when you remove time.

    There is no reason for time beyond this temporal realm.

    I look forward to this threads progression.
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    • #3
      What specifically?

      Originally posted by Walstib View Post
      ......thrown a wrench into the way I look at some things.

      What do you think?

      What specifically?
      * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * ** * * * ** * *** * * * * ***** * * * * ** * * * * ** ** * *
      ~ * You get 10 'reps' to bless others with each day... don't log off until you have used them up......
      ....Live your life the same way.... ~ *

      Please pray for the 'Persecuted Church'.


      Bible Forums Vision: "To be a community of believers who are actively engaged in pursuing the truth of God as revealed in His Son Jesus Christ by way of studying the Scriptures diligently in order to discover this truth."


      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Walstib View Post
        For a long time now I guess I have been considering heaven to be outside of time. Lately I have been thinking heaven must have a timeline of itís own in some way. Itís thrown a wrench into the way I look at some things.

        What do you think?
        I think there is a time experience there, even if its altogether different than what we experience now. But I'm always very careful with how much I think I know about heaven.

        Comment


        • #5
          What specifically? Lets get some opinions first. I don't want to derail this thread already

          I can give an example of what kind of things have been leading me to think there is.

          Jesus sitting down on the right hand of the Father and purifying the heavenly temple after His Ascension.

          Hereafter the Son of Man will sit on the right hand of the power of God." (Luk 22:69 NKJV)

          Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; (Heb 9:23-24 NKJV)

          Peace,
          Joe

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          • #6
            Originally posted by HisLeast View Post
            But I'm always very careful with how much I think I know about heaven.
            I agree. In a mirror dimly with just about everything spiritual really. Face to face will be great no doubt. Still, I don't figure it's a good reason to stop searching. Not saying this is what you implied either.

            Peace,
            Joe

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            • #7
              Let's take it up a notch. Why would heaven's time not be intimately linked and follow exactly the time we perceive? I can't yet find any good reason why it would not be so.

              Peace,
              Joe

              Comment


              • #8
                I will take a swing at it....

                Well,

                I believe most would agree that the Lord is outside of time.

                John 1:1 (King James Version)


                John 1

                1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

                Revelation 1:8 (King James Version)


                8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


                We will be like Him;

                1 John 3:2 (King James Version)


                2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.



                We will never die;

                John 11:26 (King James Version)


                26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

                There is more, but I think these verses should give you some of the reasoning. Now, it is bound to be difficult (maybe impossible) for us to think about what the Lord sees when He looks at us. He sees all He made, all the choices we make, and all we will ever be.

                The nonsense about our ducking in and out of salvation, or in and out of His favor is only our PERSPECTIVE. The linear, temporal expression of time is His creation. For a specific purpose, linear time was established (Read Genesis 1).

                If not for linear time, how could we be born into sin, know conviction and exercise free will? If we did not experience this, we could never truly worship the Lord as we were created (a little lower then the angles) to do.

                * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * ** * * * ** * *** * * * * ***** * * * * ** * * * * ** ** * *
                ~ * You get 10 'reps' to bless others with each day... don't log off until you have used them up......
                ....Live your life the same way.... ~ *

                Please pray for the 'Persecuted Church'.


                Bible Forums Vision: "To be a community of believers who are actively engaged in pursuing the truth of God as revealed in His Son Jesus Christ by way of studying the Scriptures diligently in order to discover this truth."


                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi AWGÖ I chuckle every time I see your name..
                  Originally posted by Amos_with_goats View Post
                  Well,
                  I believe most would agree that the Lord is outside of time.
                  I agree with this as well. Where was He before he created the heavens is what I ask myself. If heaven is created then the Godhead having existence *good word???* outside of this does not mean heaven has to exist outside of time with Him. The other question I ask myself is does all of the Godhead have to exist outside of time. That Jesus was fully God and fully man would say to me that God can be within time as well.
                  Originally posted by Amos_with_goats View Post
                  We will be like Him;
                  To what extent will we be like Him is what I ask myself. I donít think to the point we can all start creating our own earths and peoples. Or be worthy of each others worship as He is worthy of ours. That we will be like Him as we ďseeĒ Him in heaven, the new heaven for that matter, does not to me say there will be no passage of time. We would still be within what He has created. Adam was made in His image and was in time as far as I can tell. It is this kind, yet different, of likeness I figure is to come.
                  Originally posted by Amos_with_goats View Post
                  We will never die;
                  These words themselves to me show a passage of time. What context does ďneverĒ have outside of time is my thought.
                  Originally posted by Amos_with_goats View Post
                  There is more, but I think these verses should give you some of the reasoning. Now, it is bound to be difficult (maybe impossible) for us to think about what the Lord sees when He looks at us. He sees all He made, all the choices we make, and all we will ever be.
                  Agreed
                  Originally posted by Amos_with_goats View Post
                  If not for linear time, how could we be born into sin, know conviction and exercise free will? If we did not experience this, we could never truly worship the Lord as we were created (a little lower then the angles) to do.
                  Agreed. Would you think we can exercise free will in heaven and if so how do you think this would relate?

                  Interested in your thoughts,
                  Peace,
                  Joe

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Oh man.. I just typed a big reply and then hit the wrong key and closed the browser...


                    FWIW, I know some who are reading this may be thinking it sounds nuts, but I am really enjoying it. I appreciate the dialog.

                    Last question first.

                    No, I don't think we will need free will any longer in heaven. We will not longer need to make choices (a function of moving forward in linear time) and the best reason I do not think we will have free will is that we will NO LONGER HAVE A SIN NATURE!!! The Flesh will be dead, and we will struggle with sin no more forever.

                    That goes to our never dieing... I see what you mean by seeing this as continual movement through linear time, but what I see (and have not found scripture to contradict) is the idea that there is no end to movement through time (death) because we will not be moving through time at all.

                    WRT to;

                    If heaven is created then the Godhead having existence *good word???* outside of this does not mean heaven has to exist outside of time with Him.


                    Agreed. However if time were pre-existent to creation, He would not have established it in Gen 1 (at least it seems to me).

                    Also, the other part of the question, I see no division in the Godhead, therefore no difference in relation to time. Of course Christ experienced linear time, being fully man... however He was still fully God and therefore outside of time..... (can't wrap my head around that, but maybe when I am glorified huh?)

                    To what extent will we be like Him is what I ask myself. I donít think to the point we can all start creating our own earths and peoples. Or be worthy of each others worship as He is worthy of ours.


                    Absolutely agree... There is NO ONE worthy of bowing down to but the Lord... ever. I believe that we will be like Him in the fact that we will be made perfect, and will have His nature. We will be without sin, and I believe we will be outside of time. If I had the opportunity to mess something up over the course of eternity... trust me, I would.

                    I know I am bouncing around, wish I had my notes on this (I had it all saved at another forum that crashed and was never brought back up.... Glad to be having the discussion again.

                    Blessings,
                    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * ** * * * ** * *** * * * * ***** * * * * ** * * * * ** ** * *
                    ~ * You get 10 'reps' to bless others with each day... don't log off until you have used them up......
                    ....Live your life the same way.... ~ *

                    Please pray for the 'Persecuted Church'.


                    Bible Forums Vision: "To be a community of believers who are actively engaged in pursuing the truth of God as revealed in His Son Jesus Christ by way of studying the Scriptures diligently in order to discover this truth."


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      what is heaven?

                      is it what Ezekiel saw carried by winged beasts that someday descends to the new earth so that God dwells with man? Heaven on earth and earth called kingdom of heaven that He created to be inhabited forever?

                      what is heaven?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Walstib View Post
                        For a long time now I guess I have been considering heaven to be outside of time. Lately I have been thinking heaven must have a timeline of itís own in some way. Itís thrown a wrench into the way I look at some things.

                        What do you think?
                        I believe the Kingdom of Heaven to have time and the eternal age, which comes after the kingdom, to be outside of time.
                        "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." - Revelation 20:6

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The time thing is huge.

                          God created time for us. But why? Is it a tool for God and man to use to determine what he is going to do with his free will? Or is time something that sin also messed up? Was Adam and Eve created to fall? Did they have real free will to turn from sin? If they didn't sin, could this be the earth that God originally intended? Was the original Eden/earth supposed to be Heaven for man, everything perfect and getting to walk in the cool of the day with our Maker? What happened to the tree of life after Adam and Eve left the garden?

                          Will God do something to us to prevent us from sinning in Heaven, that he wasn't willing to do for us "in the beginning?" If there is no time in Heaven, when we die and are in Heaven in the twinkling of an eye, will everything appear to be complete? Will everyone already be there, or will I have to wait for other loved ones?

                          What about the angels? Did they have free will in Heaven? The fall would seem to have been in some type of time frame.

                          What about children? God loves children. If children go to Heaven, wouldn't it be better for many to die as children than grow up and not use their free will to accept Jesus Christ? And yet life, this life is very important to God, or so it seems. There is extreme value in this "short time" on Earth.

                          While I enjoy discussions I think time is really one of those things that are going to be mind blowing when we meet our Savior and Father.

                          Oh, one last thing: Are we (right now) always in the exact middle of eternity? (the winky smiley was supposed to be here not at the top of the page, but edit wouldn't let me change it)

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Amos_with_goats View Post
                            FWIW, I know some who are reading this may be thinking it sounds nuts, but I am really enjoying it. I appreciate the dialog.
                            I enjoy it to. We all have our own interests, eye-ear sort of thing. Hard to stay on the same page though. I am having a hard time answering you without knowing if you make a distinction between the present heaven and the heaven to come. I know we have already sort of spoke of both... My focus was to be on this present heaven. Does this matter for your answers?

                            Peace,
                            Joe

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Gregg View Post
                              Oh, one last thing: Are we (right now) always in the exact middle of eternity?
                              You are killing this thread with good questions it would take years to just consider

                              About your last question... if the theory of relativity is correct and someone living on a mountaintop is traveling faster through time than someone at sea level as the earth rotates.... would the first one be at their middle of eternity sooner than the second?

                              Peace,
                              Joe

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