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    1 corn 5: 10I was not including the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler.With such a man do not even eat. 12What business of mine is it to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?…


    matt 18:15If your brother sins against you, go and confront him privately. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two othersalong, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.…

    need a little help with the differances between these two verses, Its my take that matt is talking aout a brother in christ and how to deal with him, 1 corn is talking about an unbeliever who was n the church and causing trouble with his bold sin. Its been my take that in matt, we treat unbeievers as pagans and tax collectors and Christ spent alot of time with them, and in 1 corn its talking about a person who is really a wolf in sheeps clothing who possible knows the truth but willfully ignores it. So why do we not eat with him or associate with him if he is an unbeliever? is it because of his evilness? thank you in advance
    " I am here to learn and I am not a teacher of the word. While I may challenge beliefs and ask pointed questions it is for me to understand completely your point of view so that I may challenge my own point of view in my search for truth"

  • #2
    Re: unbelievers

    Originally posted by clormond View Post
    1 corn 5: 10I was not including the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler.With such a man do not even eat. 12What business of mine is it to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?…


    matt 18:15If your brother sins against you, go and confront him privately. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two othersalong, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.…

    need a little help with the differances between these two verses, Its my take that matt is talking aout a brother in christ and how to deal with him, 1 corn is talking about an unbeliever who was n the church and causing trouble with his bold sin. Its been my take that in matt, we treat unbeievers as pagans and tax collectors and Christ spent alot of time with them, and in 1 corn its talking about a person who is really a wolf in sheeps clothing who possible knows the truth but willfully ignores it. So why do we not eat with him or associate with him if he is an unbeliever? is it because of his evilness? thank you in advance
    In Matthew 18:15 it is about a blood brother, either being a sibling or a fellow Jew, according to the Mosaic Law a dispute must be settled with at least two witnesses, see Deuteronomy 19:15.

    In 1 Corinthians 5:10 it is about a brother in Christ (not an unbeliever), since the Corinthian church was mixed gentile/Jew. It is called in chapter 1:2 « the church of God » and they are « sanctified in Christ Jesus » and Jesus Christ is both « their » (the gentiles) and « ours » (the Jews) Lord. This group is blessed « with » Abraham sharing in the promises made to him by God before his circumcision, see Galatians 3:9.

    Aristarkos

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: unbelievers

      Originally posted by clormond View Post
      1 corn 5: 10I was not including the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler.With such a man do not even eat. 12What business of mine is it to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?…


      matt 18:15If your brother sins against you, go and confront him privately. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two othersalong, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.…

      need a little help with the differances between these two verses, Its my take that matt is talking aout a brother in christ and how to deal with him, 1 corn is talking about an unbeliever who was n the church and causing trouble with his bold sin. Its been my take that in matt, we treat unbeievers as pagans and tax collectors and Christ spent alot of time with them, and in 1 corn its talking about a person who is really a wolf in sheeps clothing who possible knows the truth but willfully ignores it. So why do we not eat with him or associate with him if he is an unbeliever? is it because of his evilness? thank you in advance
      The passage in 1 Cor 5:10-12 refers to those that might be called the vessels of wood and earth in the church, ie, they profess to be Christians but are not really broken and repentant. I Cor 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother (a fellow believer) be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      Paul's warning is probably aimed at ostracising those who wish to enjoy the accolades of being called a Christian while retaining their sinful worldly lifestyle. The idea is that once exposed and repudiated, they will see the error of their ways and repent.

      Matt 18:15-17, on the other hand, addresses a personal wrongdoing. One in which for example, you are the victim of the offence. The perpetrator could be from one's own family or a brother/sister from your church. Again, the scripture outlines the process to follow starting with a one-2-one with the offender where you point out their wrongdoing in the hope they will accept their misconduct, apologise and repent. But if they fail to acknowledge their wrongdoing, then you invite one or two people as witnesses. If that still doesn't work, then you take the matter to the church for mediation.

      .

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: unbelievers

        Originally posted by clormond View Post
        1 corn 5: 10I was not including the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler.With such a man do not even eat. 12What business of mine is it to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?…


        matt 18:15If your brother sins against you, go and confront him privately. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two othersalong, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.…

        need a little help with the differances between these two verses, Its my take that matt is talking aout a brother in christ and how to deal with him, 1 corn is talking about an unbeliever who was n the church and causing trouble with his bold sin. Its been my take that in matt, we treat unbeievers as pagans and tax collectors and Christ spent alot of time with them, and in 1 corn its talking about a person who is really a wolf in sheeps clothing who possible knows the truth but willfully ignores it. So why do we not eat with him or associate with him if he is an unbeliever? is it because of his evilness? thank you in advance
        Both of the passages speak about someone who is presumably a "brother" but isn't acting like a brother. In Matthew 18, Jesus is explaining the process of reconciliation, in which one man offends the other man. The first man's offense has caused enmity between the two men, but the one who was offended has expressed his willingness to restore friendly relations if the other man would only acknowledge his guilt. The goal, as Jesus says, is to win your brother over, that is, the offended brother is willing to forgive, make peace and restore good will with the man who offended him. If the offended man wants to make peace with his brother, he should confront him privately first, and if the other man admits his offense, and asks for forgiveness, the first man will agree to reconcile with him. But what if the offending man is not willing to admit his offense?

        Hope for reconciliation can still be found if the offended man brings along two or three others to confront the man who offended him. And his purpose hasn't wavered from his wish to be reconciled with his brother. He does not confront him to condemn him or punish him. If only the offending man would admit his offense and ask for forgiveness. But if the man still refuses to admit his offense, perhaps he might confess to his pastor or rabbi or his church. But what if he still refuses to admit his offense?

        Then Jesus says, if the man who offended him refuses to reconcile with him, then his only recourse after that is to treat him as a pagan or a tax collector, which isn't to say that he should treat him badly. After all, Jesus is the one who said that we should love our enemies and treat them as we would want to be treated. What does it mean to treat a man "as a pagan or a tax collector?" For starters, we assume that we are no longer on friendly terms with him. We have learned that the man no longer shares our interests, our perspective, our outlook, our love for God, or our values. If a man is truly my brother, we will share a common understanding of what it means to fear the Lord, and to live by the implications of the truth we believe and the gospel we share. To treat him as a pagan or a tax collector is to simply acknowledge in my mind that the other man does not share a common commitment to the love and fear of God, and the love of the brethren.

        Jesus was talking about two brothers, living as Jews under the old covenant. Paul is speaking about a man who claims to be a brother in Christ, living under the new covenant. For some reason, a man finds value in claiming to be a brother in Christ, even while he in fact is not a follower of Christ. Such a man is living a lie and has not actually confronted the truth of the Gospel or it's implications. Under such conditions, it would be an act of cruelty to allow the man to continue to assume that nothing is wrong with what he is doing. It would be cruel to allow the man to assume everything is okay with God, only to find himself in hell later. It would be an act of mercy, though, to confront such a man and make a clear statement that he has no actual, true, solidarity with those in Christ. It should be made clear to the man that he is NOT a brother, as he claims, and that he needs to take the gospel to heart and strive to understand the implications of what he claims to believe.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: unbelievers

          Originally posted by clormond View Post
          .....What business of mine is it to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?….....So why do we not eat with him or associate with him if he is an unbeliever? is it because of his evilness? thank you in advance
          As written likewise through the NEW TESTAMENT,

          "put out the wickedness from your midst" is not an option to ignore, is it ? (Why ignore this?)

          The purpose is to keep the assembly clean/ pure/ , again as it it written throughout the NEW TESTAMENT.

          The shunning, putting out of someone who claims to be a believer, is not practiced in most assemblies. But it is required.

          The purpose for them is that they might (they are expected to) repent, and "go and sin no more"...... then they are UNshunned.(welcome back in the assembly; and again can be talked with, greeted, and share meals).

          If (as often happens) they continue unrepentant, far far worse happens to them, and to those who associate with them.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: unbelievers

            In matthew we are told to traet him like a tax collector and a pegan, yet christ spent alot oftime with them and didnt shun them, yet paul states not even to eat with him (1 corn), see im confused a lttle on the differances on how we treat differant people. Is it that we dont have fellowship with those who are not believers? im finding it hard to place our evangalising to the lost when considering pauls comments.
            " I am here to learn and I am not a teacher of the word. While I may challenge beliefs and ask pointed questions it is for me to understand completely your point of view so that I may challenge my own point of view in my search for truth"

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: unbelievers

              Originally posted by clormond View Post
              In matthew we are told to traet him like a tax collector and a pegan, yet christ spent alot oftime with them and didnt shun them, yet paul states not even to eat with him (1 corn), see im confused a lttle on the differances on how we treat differant people. Is it that we dont have fellowship with those who are not believers? im finding it hard to place our evangalising to the lost when considering pauls comments.
              Christ spent time with the tax collector and the like because they accepted Him as Messiah, this was the reason He came:

              Mat 9:13 « But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. »

              Like I said in post #2, Paul talked about a fellow believer, a brother. Christians sin, they can wander of the right path if they get caught up in carnal life. A telling example is Judas Iscariot.

              Paul said they shouldn't eat with known sinners that were part of the church of the Corinthians. These people did really appalling things, and they should have been removed from the church because they could drag the whole church down: « Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? » (5:6).

              There is a difference how one should treat people and being a part of their life. You should treat people the way you want tot be treated yourself, but that doesn't mean you have to condone their lifestyle and certainly have no part in it.

              Aristarkos

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: unbelievers

                Originally posted by clormond View Post
                In matthew we are told to traet him like a tax collector and a pegan, yet christ spent alot oftime with them and didnt shun them, yet paul states not even to eat with him (1 corn), see im confused a lttle on the differances on how we treat differant people. Is it that we dont have fellowship with those who are not believers? im finding it hard to place our evangalising to the lost when considering pauls comments.
                Paul's concern is focused on anyone who claims to be a fellow Christian, but refuses to live according to the implications of the faith he supposedly believes. His does not restrict us from living and working among non-Christians.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: unbelievers

                  Originally posted by clormond View Post
                  1 corn 5: 10I was not including the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler.With such a man do not even eat. 12What business of mine is it to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?…

                  matt 18:15If your brother sins against you, go and confront him privately. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two othersalong, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.…

                  need a little help with the differances between these two verses, Its my take that matt is talking aout a brother in christ and how to deal with him, 1 corn is talking about an unbeliever who was n the church and causing trouble with his bold sin. Its been my take that in matt, we treat unbeievers as pagans and tax collectors and Christ spent alot of time with them, and in 1 corn its talking about a person who is really a wolf in sheeps clothing who possible knows the truth but willfully ignores it. So why do we not eat with him or associate with him if he is an unbeliever? is it because of his evilness? thank you in advance
                  My understanding: If someone is caught in sin that is a believer-- One who professes Christ and fellowships with other believers, and the appropriate action is taken to shed light on their sin, once the person admits their sin, and humbles themselves (by getting help and forsaking the sin) they may remain in fellowship. Healing happens as they admit their sin and receive prayer. They are partaking in recovery from that sin actively.
                  (James 5:16)

                  On the flip side of that is the individual who claims to be a believer in Christ, when their sin is brought to light, does not admit their wrong.
                  They are not taking what is offered in recovery from sin, through prayer and humility.

                  They must be treated as an unbeliever because to continue in fellowship as if they were a believer
                  including partaking of The Lord's Support would be supporting their sin and doing harm to the Body.

                  To me, this call to remain separate from them is to remove them from the fellowship of the church Body, not removing yourself from their presence while they are still in the church Body. That does no good to anyone.

                  Fellowship with unbelievers, on the other hand, are those outside of the Body who have yet to receive The Gospel.

                  These are those God leads to share Himself with in order that they might know Him.
                  Unbelievers do not ever partake of The Lord's Supper. They are already outside of the church Body, and the hope is for them to be joined to The Body through faith in Christ.
                  Peace to you!

                  It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

                  1 Corinthians 1:30

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: unbelievers

                    Originally posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
                    My understanding: If someone is caught in sin that is a believer-- One who professes Christ and fellowships with other believers, and the appropriate action is taken to shed light on their sin, once the person admits their sin, and humbles themselves (by getting help and forsaking the sin) they may remain in fellowship. Healing happens as they admit their sin and receive prayer. They are partaking in recovery from that sin actively.
                    (James 5:16)

                    On the flip side of that is the individual who claims to be a believer in Christ, when their sin is brought to light, does not admit their wrong.
                    They are not taking what is offered in recovery from sin, through prayer and humility.

                    They must be treated as an unbeliever because to continue in fellowship as if they were a believer
                    including partaking of The Lord's Support would be supporting their sin and doing harm to the Body.

                    To me, this call to remain separate from them is to remove them from the fellowship of the church Body, not removing yourself from their presence while they are still in the church Body. That does no good to anyone.

                    Fellowship with unbelievers, on the other hand, are those outside of the Body who have yet to receive The Gospel.

                    These are those God leads to share Himself with in order that they might know Him.
                    Unbelievers do not ever partake of The Lord's Supper. They are already outside of the church Body, and the hope is for them to be joined to The Body through faith in Christ.
                    I agree, especially since Jesus Said:

                    MT 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
                    MT 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
                    MT 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
                    MT 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
                    MT 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
                    JER 14:13 Then said I: 'Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them: Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.'
                    JER 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me: 'The prophets prophesy lies in My name; I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spoke I unto them; they prophesy unto you a lying vision, and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their own heart.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: unbelievers

                      Originally posted by Aristarkos View Post
                      In Matthew 18:15 it is about a blood brother, either being a sibling or a fellow Jew, according to the Mosaic Law a dispute must be settled with at least two witnesses, see Deuteronomy 19:15.

                      In 1 Corinthians 5:10 it is about a brother in Christ (not an unbeliever), since the Corinthian church was mixed gentile/Jew. It is called in chapter 1:2 « the church of God » and they are « sanctified in Christ Jesus » and Jesus Christ is both « their » (the gentiles) and « ours » (the Jews) Lord. This group is blessed « with » Abraham sharing in the promises made to him by God before his circumcision, see Galatians 3:9.

                      Aristarkos
                      So really what these verses are speaking about is two different types of people:

                      Matt 18:15 is speaking of a brother in good standing
                      1 Cor 5:10 is speaking about someone that may claim to be a brother, but actually is someone who no longer walks "according to the Way"


                      Acts 19:9 American Standard Version

                      9 But when some were hardened and disobedient, speaking evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them,
                      and separated the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.

                      So, the problem with these verses is they speak of different types of relationships...
                      One way to think of it is this:

                      You have two football teams playing a game.
                      Are you going to help your team? or the other team that opposes you?
                      Of course the scriptures also encourage us to display fruits of the spirit


                      Colossians 3:12 American Standard Version

                      12 Put on therefore, as God’s elect, holy and beloved, a heart of compassion, kindness, lowliness, meekness, longsuffering;

                      13 forbearing one another, and forgiving each other, if any man have a complaint against any; even as the Lord forgave you, so also do ye:

                      Some people will not accept a peaceful demeanor at all though... no matter what we do or say...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: unbelievers

                        Originally posted by carlm View Post
                        So really what these verses are speaking about is two different types of people:

                        Matt 18:15 is speaking of a brother in good standing
                        1 Cor 5:10 is speaking about someone that may claim to be a brother, but actually is someone who no longer walks "according to the Way"


                        Acts 19:9 American Standard Version

                        9 But when some were hardened and disobedient, speaking evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them,
                        and separated the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.

                        So, the problem with these verses is they speak of different types of relationships...
                        One way to think of it is this:

                        You have two football teams playing a game.
                        Are you going to help your team? or the other team that opposes you?
                        Of course the scriptures also encourage us to display fruits of the spirit


                        Colossians 3:12 American Standard Version

                        12 Put on therefore, as God’s elect, holy and beloved, a heart of compassion, kindness, lowliness, meekness, longsuffering;

                        13 forbearing one another, and forgiving each other, if any man have a complaint against any; even as the Lord forgave you, so also do ye:

                        Some people will not accept a peaceful demeanor at all though... no matter what we do or say...
                        Yes, two different things. In Matthew the dispute has to be solved as instructed by the Mosaic Law, in 1 Corinthians 5:10 this is totally different.

                        Slightly OT:
                        The church of God rests on promises made by God to Abraham before the circumcision, they are not his natural seed but his « spiritual » seed. The promises made to Abraham contains two different seeds:

                        Gen 22:17 « That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven [church of God, blessed with Abraham Gal 3:9], and as the sand which is upon the sea shore [Israel]; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; »

                        Back in Paul's days this wasn't well understood by the Jews who wanted the gentiles to be circumcised.

                        Gal 5:3 « For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. »

                        Which wasn't a particular good idea. These « churches of God » Paul was founding were intended to provoke Israel to jealousy but to no avail. (Rom 10:19) That's why Paul only was called after Israel refused and crucified its King and was on its way to reject the resurrected Messiah as well. Crafting the gentiles on the olive tree should have stimulate it to bear fruit but it didn't.

                        Act 28:27 « For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. »

                        Here quoted for the second time vs. 27 (See Matthew 13:15) this resulted in Israel being taken out of the land by the Romans in 70AD.

                        Aristarkos

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: unbelievers

                          Originally posted by clormond View Post
                          1 corn 5: 10I was not including the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler.With such a man do not even eat. 12What business of mine is it to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?…


                          matt 18:15If your brother sins against you, go and confront him privately. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two othersalong, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.…

                          need a little help with the differances between these two verses, Its my take that matt is talking aout a brother in christ and how to deal with him, 1 corn is talking about an unbeliever who was n the church and causing trouble with his bold sin. Its been my take that in matt, we treat unbeievers as pagans and tax collectors and Christ spent alot of time with them, and in 1 corn its talking about a person who is really a wolf in sheeps clothing who possible knows the truth but willfully ignores it. So why do we not eat with him or associate with him if he is an unbeliever? is it because of his evilness? thank you in advance
                          1 Corinthians 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
                          10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
                          11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

                          IMO verse 10 is meaning fornicators outside of the brotherhood of Christ, and that verse 11 is meaning fornicators within the brotherhood of Christ.

                          Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world....But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator...apparently referring to two different groups here.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: unbelievers

                            Originally posted by Aristarkos View Post
                            Yes, two different things. In Matthew the dispute has to be solved as instructed by the Mosaic Law, in 1 Corinthians 5:10 this is totally different.

                            Slightly OT:
                            The church of God rests on promises made by God to Abraham before the circumcision, they are not his natural seed but his « spiritual » seed. The promises made to Abraham contains two different seeds:

                            Gen 22:17 « That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven [church of God, blessed with Abraham Gal 3:9], and as the sand which is upon the sea shore [Israel]; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; »

                            Back in Paul's days this wasn't well understood by the Jews who wanted the gentiles to be circumcised.

                            Gal 5:3 « For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. »

                            Which wasn't a particular good idea. These « churches of God » Paul was founding were intended to provoke Israel to jealousy but to no avail. (Rom 10:19) That's why Paul only was called after Israel refused and crucified its King and was on its way to reject the resurrected Messiah as well. Crafting the gentiles on the olive tree should have stimulate it to bear fruit but it didn't.

                            Act 28:27 « For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. »

                            Here quoted for the second time vs. 27 (See Matthew 13:15) this resulted in Israel being taken out of the land by the Romans in 70AD.

                            Aristarkos
                            I understand what you mean by mosaic law.. but Matthew is a gospel of Christ... so a gospel means what Christ taught... not the law ... imho ...
                            So, when Christ was asked by Peter "Master how many times am I to forgive my brother Up to seven times?" Jesus then said ".. No but up to 77 times!"
                            This was to emphasis that there should not be a limit on how many times we forgive our brothers...

                            I agree with you though that many, many times Jesus quoted from the Hebrew scriptures... and even reiterated them in the Christian Greek scriptures..

                            Matthew 10:35 For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law:
                            36 and a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
                            Micah 7:6 For the son dishonoreth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; a man’s enemies are the men of his own house.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: unbelievers

                              Originally posted by carlm View Post
                              I understand what you mean by mosaic law.. but Matthew is a gospel of Christ... so a gospel means what Christ taught... not the law ... imho ...
                              So, when Christ was asked by Peter "Master how many times am I to forgive my brother Up to seven times?" Jesus then said ".. No but up to 77 times!"
                              This was to emphasis that there should not be a limit on how many times we forgive our brothers...

                              I agree with you though that many, many times Jesus quoted from the Hebrew scriptures... and even reiterated them in the Christian Greek scriptures..

                              Matthew 10:35 For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law:
                              36 and a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
                              Micah 7:6 For the son dishonoreth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; a man’s enemies are the men of his own house.
                              Didn't the Lord say:

                              Mat 5:17 « Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. »

                              The Christ lived by the law Himself being a Jew.

                              Seven is the number of perfection in the Scriptures - the Lord rested on the seventh day - and forgiving 70 times 7 (says my KJV) is 490. This in itself is a significant number because of Gods dealing with Israel in four periods of 490[*] years:

                              The 1st. From Abraham to the Exodus.
                              The 2nd. The Exodus to the Dedication of Temple.
                              The 3rd. From the Temple to Nehemiah's return.
                              The 4th. From Nehemiah to the Second Advent.

                              It is clear that these are periods of duration having regard only to Israel, and to Jehovah's immediate dealings with them. For in each one there is a period of time during which He was not immediately governing them, but in which His hand was removed, and His people were without visible tokens of His presence with them.

                              1. From the birth of Abraham to the Exodus Years Total
                              From the birth of Abraham to the Exodus was actually (Gen 12:4, 16:3 and 21:5)* 505
                              But deducting the 15 years while Ishmael was Abram's seed, delaying the seed of promise -15
                              Leaving the first 70 x 7 of years 490
                              More well known are the seventy sevens of Daniel. In Matthew the OT is quoted 92 times.

                              Aristarkos
                              [*] Source « Numbers in Scriptures »

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