Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Hating the sin, loving the sinner

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Hating the sin, loving the sinner

    Hi, everyone.

    I'd like to get some Bible-based discussion going on this topic, please: what does it mean to hate the sin, and love the sinner? Many people who are not Christian (and a few who are!) can't understand the concept -- they say "if you hate what I do, then you don't like ME!" or "if you can't accept what I do, then you aren't accepting me."

    I think it's a shame that people can't separate who they are from what their perpetual habits are, but since we need to meet them where they are I'd really like to see if, as a group, we can come up with some scripture that explains God's position on hating sin, but loving people who sin. It would be great to have as reference, so we can share it with people who don't understand the concept.

    Looking forward to seeing what we come up with....
    -- Your ~sister~ in Christ.... a "Kaffinated Kittykat"!!

    ROMANS 5:8. Forgiven. Freed. Humbled. Amazed. Grateful. Relying on Christ.

    Love is not a place to come and go as we please
    It's a house we enter in, then commit to never leave
    So lock the door behind you, and throw away the key
    We'll work it out together, let it bring us to our knees.....
    Warren Barfield




  • #2
    Originally posted by CoffeeCat View Post
    Hi, everyone.

    I'd like to get some Bible-based discussion going on this topic, please: what does it mean to hate the sin, and love the sinner? Many people who are not Christian (and a few who are!) can't understand the concept -- they say "if you hate what I do, then you don't like ME!" or "if you can't accept what I do, then you aren't accepting me."

    I think it's a shame that people can't separate who they are from what their perpetual habits are, but since we need to meet them where they are I'd really like to see if, as a group, we can come up with some scripture that explains God's position on hating sin, but loving people who sin. It would be great to have as reference, so we can share it with people who don't understand the concept.

    Looking forward to seeing what we come up with....


    You do realize that this was a famous quote by Mahatma Gandhi? AFAIK, this person wasn't a Christian. I wonder why Christians quote this person? The question is, can this concept be found in Scriptures? If we are loving the sinner, yet hating the sin, aren't we basically telling them they can do whatever they want, yet we still love you? Shouldn't we be telling them to repent?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by divaD View Post
      You do realize that this was a famous quote by Mahatma Gandhi? AFAIK, this person wasn't a Christian. I wonder why Christians quote this person? The question is, can this concept be found in Scriptures? If we are loving the sinner, yet hating the sin, aren't we basically telling them they can do whatever they want, yet we still love you? Shouldn't we be telling them to repent?
      I don't know if that is true...I did a search and saw someone say that on their blog...but they don't reference where they heard it from!

      I think the idea is true because John 3:16 says for God so loved the world...a sin fallen world full of sinners! Doesn't say He hates us because He hates sin...yes He hates sin...but He had managed to seperate the sin from the sinner...

      I love my son even when he messes up and does wrong...should I hate him solely because he sinned..IS a sinner? That doesn't seem to line up with the teachings of Christ to love your neighbor (who is a sinner!) as yourself...who is also a sinner...

      Yes sin shows where the heart is...the fruit! But it doesn't say to start hating them because of it....

      God bless
      "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by divaD View Post
        You do realize that this was a famous quote by Mahatma Gandhi? AFAIK, this person wasn't a Christian. I wonder why Christians quote this person? The question is, can this concept be found in Scriptures? If we are loving the sinner, yet hating the sin, aren't we basically telling them they can do whatever they want, yet we still love you? Shouldn't we be telling them to repent?
        Matt 5
        43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
        45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
        46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
        47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
        48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

        Luke 6
        27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
        28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
        29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
        30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
        31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
        32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
        33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
        34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
        35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
        36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
        37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
        38Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

        Romans 12
        19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
        21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by John146 View Post
          Matt 5
          43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
          45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
          46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
          47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
          48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

          Luke 6
          27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
          28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
          29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
          30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
          31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
          32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
          33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
          34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
          35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
          36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
          37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
          38Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

          Romans 12
          19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
          21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.


          Before anyone misunderstands me, I'm not saying that we shouldn't love anyone. I can't nor will argue with any Scripture that you just presentented. Those Scriptures truly speak for themselves. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of where this quote originated, and what it really means, and why Christians use it, and if it originated from Christians.

          Comment


          • #6
            The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong.

            The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates.

            Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD, and abhor those who rise up against you?

            Esau I have hated

            Oh, wait...

            Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you

            Shouldn't we be telling them to repent?
            Only if we loved them.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by divaD View Post
              Before anyone misunderstands me, I'm not saying that we shouldn't love anyone. I can't nor will argue with any Scripture that you just presentented. Those Scriptures truly speak for themselves. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of where this quote originated, and what it really means, and why Christians use it, and if it originated from Christians.
              Christians say it because scripture teaches it. The scriptures I quoted clearly show that we are expected to love everyone, including our enemies. So, what about sin?

              Rom 10:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

              So, the concept of loving the sinner and hating the sin is quite biblical.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by divaD View Post
                Before anyone misunderstands me, I'm not saying that we shouldn't love anyone. I can't nor will argue with any Scripture that you just presentented. Those Scriptures truly speak for themselves. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of where this quote originated, and what it really means, and why Christians use it, and if it originated from Christians.
                Well you might be right in that it may have come from Gandhi..as I keep finding that in a few places on the net...people saying it and even a coffee cup for sale with that saying on it.. quoted by him. I think we have to remember that the bible does say God puts the knowledge of Him in all of us...and even those not of our faith may have a little of the truth...

                The question is, can this concept be found in Scriptures? If we are loving the sinner, yet hating the sin, aren't we basically telling them they can do whatever they want, yet we still love you? Shouldn't we be telling them to repent?
                We are still hating the sin though...so I don't see how that tells them its ok to keep sinning. Repenting does no good if they don't believe in God in the first place. People cannot even see their sins until they find God...so yes, we do what we always have been doing...leading them to Christ.

                God bless
                "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

                Comment


                • #9
                  It's generally assumed to be taken from Augustine of Hippo (4th century) - Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum, "With love for mankind and hatred of sins."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
                    The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong.

                    The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates.

                    Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD, and abhor those who rise up against you?

                    Esau I have hated

                    Oh, wait...

                    Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you



                    Only if we loved them.
                    Excellent post Yukerboy. It demonstrates clearly, that the "God hates the sin not the sinner" thing is fully in error.
                    "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." - Revelation 20:6

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks, all, for your participation so far.

                      Okay. So we have a few ideas coming up....

                      1. Is the idea of "hate the sin, love the sinner" actually a CHRISTIAN idea?
                      2. IF it's an idea that Christians generally hold, is there scriptural reference/support for it?
                      3. What is that support?

                      I started this thread because regardless of who said the quote originally, the sentiment itself seems to have been adopted by Christians. I can't count the number of people I've spoken to who, being Christians, have said it. Essentially, it's the idea of loving someone because they are precious and created by God, but at the same time, hating sin because sin is NOT of God. I'd argue that only GOD can fully love US while at the same time hating our sin -- we can't do so fully because we sin, ourselves.

                      And yet... there seems to be this notion a lot of Christians hold that this attitude is a good one to take. Moonglow mentioned loving her son despite the things he does. I've often seen people on the board in several threads say "I have a family member I LOVE dearly, but he/she does "X" which is what I hate/disagree with".

                      So.... trying to figure out how scriptural this notion we have is, and which scriptures are available. GENERALLY, thinking of the gospel, I can recall that Jesus often looked at individual sinners and loved them, despite their sin, which they needed forgiveness for -- so the idea seems to fit. But I'm trying to look for specifics.

                      Thanks for your help, guys/gals.
                      -- Your ~sister~ in Christ.... a "Kaffinated Kittykat"!!

                      ROMANS 5:8. Forgiven. Freed. Humbled. Amazed. Grateful. Relying on Christ.

                      Love is not a place to come and go as we please
                      It's a house we enter in, then commit to never leave
                      So lock the door behind you, and throw away the key
                      We'll work it out together, let it bring us to our knees.....
                      Warren Barfield



                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Jesus loved His enemies. "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." It would have been a good opportunity to tell them they were going to hell for what they had done. Yet he prayed for their forgiveness. I think that's what's meant by loving the sinner. We love sinners everyday and don't even consider their sin. We are all sinners. I'm glad I'm loved anyway.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          You have to love people sinners and saints alike, I dont really think we should be telling people to repent unless you know all the details and they are your bother and sister in christ.

                          Galatians 6:1
                          Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

                          The sinners are an entirely different story you cant just go around telling them to repent because they will automatically block you out once you have offended them. You just have to show people love true love, love conquers all. I have this girl in my church named lavern she is 14. She is on the fence one foot in the church one foot in the world, her father will not allow her to get baptized so she dosent claim salvation, also her family situation is crazy. I have taken her under my wing and I just love her so dearly, I take her out and just spend quality time with because she is usually home alone I worry. Dont get me wrong I do correct her when she messes up or gets out of line but always in love. Because of the love and concern Jesus has given me for her the true love in my heart for my little sister in christ slowly you can see Jesus just molding her more and more she even comes out to service during the week and she is genuinly excited to come to church. I give all the glory to God because before I took her under my wing she would be missing for months at a time Although I dont agree with the things she does or her not father not allowing her to be baptised I still love her.
                          I will sing of your works & your mighty ways
                          My Rock & My Salvation
                          Who will hide me in the time of trouble?
                          Who is like the lord, so full of gace and truth!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JesusReignsForever View Post
                            You have to love people sinners and saints alike, I dont really think we should be telling people to repent unless you know all the details and they are your bother and sister in christ.

                            Galatians 6:1
                            Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

                            The sinners are an entirely different story you cant just go around telling them to repent because they will automatically block you out once you have offended them. You just have to show people love true love, love conquers all. I have this girl in my church named lavern she is 14. She is on the fence one foot in the church one foot in the world, her father will not allow her to get baptized so she dosent claim salvation, also her family situation is crazy. I have taken her under my wing and I just love her so dearly, I take her out and just spend quality time with because she is usually home alone I worry. Dont get me wrong I do correct her when she messes up or gets out of line but always in love. Because of the love and concern Jesus has given me for her the true love in my heart for my little sister in christ slowly you can see Jesus just molding her more and more she even comes out to service during the week and she is genuinly excited to come to church. I give all the glory to God because before I took her under my wing she would be missing for months at a time Although I dont agree with the things she does or her not father not allowing her to be baptised I still love her.
                            This is a great anticdote to explain the concept. Another example not mentioned yet is that of Jesus and Mary Magdalene. He loved her.
                            As far as Ghandi being the orginator of the quote, who cares? At least
                            I don't. A person shouldn't be discredited as a human being becuse they are not Christian. No, his religion will not save us, but every one has inspired moments. In any event, the concept can be backed scripturally, so it's all good in my opinion.
                            Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.
                            Proverbs 3:5

                            My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgements come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.
                            Isaiah 26:9

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by mikebr View Post
                              Jesus loved His enemies. "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." It would have been a good opportunity to tell them they were going to hell for what they had done. Yet he prayed for their forgiveness. I think that's what's meant by loving the sinner. We love sinners everyday and don't even consider their sin. We are all sinners. I'm glad I'm loved anyway.
                              Another Excellent Point
                              Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.
                              Proverbs 3:5

                              My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgements come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.
                              Isaiah 26:9

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X