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Does 'stars' represent angels? (Revelations12:4)

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  • #16
    Re: Does 'stars' represent angels? (Revelations12:4)

    Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Daniel 8:10 "10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heavens; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon [trampled] them." I don't believe this is referring to the heavenly bodies of "stars".



    ____________

    [see also, "And the God of peace shall crush Satan under your feet in quickness [noun]." Rom16:20 (same word in Rev1:1 and 22:6); see also 1Cor6:3a "know ye not that we [the Church which is His body] shall judge angels?"]
    Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    If this is the case i would refer you to a few Passages in Isaiah and Ezekiel.

    Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

    Isaiah 14:12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! 13 You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north;c 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ 15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit.

    Isaiah 24:21 On that day the Lord will punish the host of heaven, in heaven, and the kings of the earth, on the earth.
    22 They will be gathered together as prisoners in a pit; they will be shut up in a prison, and after many days they will be punished. 23 Then the moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, for the Lord of hosts reigns on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and his glory will be before his elders.

    Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

    Ezekiel 28:14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you;d you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you. 16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you,e O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.


    Think about the term *stone of Fire* (sounds like a star to me? )
    Yeah. Like I afore-metioned, sometimes, the bible makes use of symbolic languages and we would need to decipher its meaning.

    Therefore, stone of Fire does sounds like it, or what else do we use to classify 'stine of Fire?'.
    16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18. Wherefore comfort one another with this word. (1Thessalonians4:16-18)


    my worst fears in life is missing the Kingdom of God

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Does 'stars' represent angels? (Revelations12:4)

      Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
      If this is the case i would refer you to a few Passages in Isaiah and Ezekiel.

      Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

      Isaiah 14:12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! 13 You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north;c 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ 15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit.

      Isaiah 24:21 On that day the Lord will punish the host of heaven, in heaven, and the kings of the earth, on the earth.
      22 They will be gathered together as prisoners in a pit; they will be shut up in a prison, and after many days they will be punished. 23 Then the moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, for the Lord of hosts reigns on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and his glory will be before his elders.

      Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

      Ezekiel 28:14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you;d you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you. 16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you,e O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.


      Think about the term *stone of Fire* (sounds like a star to me? )

      Yeah. Like I afore-metioned, sometimes, the bible makes use of symbolic languages and we would need to decipher its meaning.

      Therefore, stone of Fire does sounds like it, or what else do we use to classify 'stone of Fire?'.
      16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
      17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
      18. Wherefore comfort one another with this word. (1Thessalonians4:16-18)


      my worst fears in life is missing the Kingdom of God

      Comment


      • #18
        Why all dancing around what is apparent?

        in Josephs dream, in Genesis, the stars in his dream represent his family. "People".
        Also, in Daniel 12:3 ?
        Obviously also, as with the angel Lucifer, stars represent the angels too.
        The Lord also refers to Himself as, "The bright and morning star".

        So, "stars", from Genesis to Revelation, represent both angels and people alike.

        When the Lord, also in Genesis, told Abraham that his offspring would be as numerous as the stars in the night sky, He was referring to people.

        What has been brought out with study, is that Revelation 12:4 is referring to the fall of humanity, related to the fall in the Garden. - Or, "Paradise".
        Which..?
        Also involves angelic origins of humanity.

        What did Jesus tell the thief hanging on the cross next to Him, when the thief asked, "Remember me..."?
        Can you say?

        Understand this.
        That the greater reality and truth involves the timeless... and eternity! Not that which is ensconced in, "space/time".

        Then what does that make of the organic, and material, "world", within time and space?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Iam_Joshua View Post

          What are your thoughts or opinions on this?
          Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

          Here a "star" came down from heaven and he was given a key to the pit.


          Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

          Here an angel comes down from heaven and he already possesses the key to the pit. Not only is a star an angel, but this is the same star/angel in both verses.

          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

            Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

            Here a "star" came down from heaven and he was given a key to the pit.


            Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

            Here an angel comes down from heaven and he already possesses the key to the pit. Not only is a star an angel, but this is the same star/angel in both verses.
            I would offer. It was the bright and morning star Christ. Bright as the source and morning in respect to the reflected glory. The key the gospel it as it is written . . . the binding and loosening power of God. This is unlike Satan the morning star as created and fell when God saw pride in the father of lies.heart .


            Unlike other messengers sent with the gospel In the last days he spoke directly through his Son as a living parable of the Father and Son working to bring the peace of God that surpasses our understanding .. The peace that binds his love to the bride the church,

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Garee View Post

              I would offer. It was the bright and morning star Christ.
              Jesus is always properly identified in the NT. He is not called an angel. That is used solely for literal angels that do Christ's bidding.
              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Iam_Joshua View Post
                Brethren,

                *Could the stars represent angels?
                I agree with "old man", it depends on the context.

                Stars are luminaries that most everyone can see. And everyone living in the same city sees the same stars in the night sky. Thus, people that everyone knows, famous people, are called "stars." Everyone sees them and everyone seems to know them. Kings and queens, and other royalty are called "stars" because everyone in the nation knows them, or at least knows about them.

                Stars are also luminaries that guide sailors along courses at sea. Sailors chart courses using Polaris, the northern star. People in the Southern Hemisphere also have stars to guide them. For this reason, anyone who acts as a guide, a sage, a wise teacher, is also called a "luminary" like a star. These people are star-like because they are reliable sources of knowledge and wisdom.

                Stars never change, or at least they don't change noticeably over thousands of years. For this reason the heavens and those who dwell there, the stars, are considered eternal. Except for the planets, called "wandering stars", the stars never change their courses. And the constellations never change shape. For this reason, stars are used symbolically to represent immortal beings, such as the angels.

                According to ancient mythology, anyone who attains immortality is said to live "among the stars." Just like the stars, immortals exist beyond one lifetime, and are known to many generations down through history.

                Falling stars, what we now know as meteors, appear to fall from heaven. What we see is a very bright object that streaks across the sky, lasting only seconds A brief flash, and it's gone. Thus, anyone who loses immortality is said to have "fallen from heaven." Like the fiery meteor, the formerly immortal being has only a short time to live.

                This sort of symbolism is found in the book of Revelation.

                Revelation 12:
                9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

                In my opinion, this is telling us that Satan and his angels have lost their immortality. Notice what it says just a few verses later.

                Revelation 12:
                12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

                An immortal being has all the time he needs. But after Satan lost his battle with Michael, he lost his immortality, which is symbolized as his fall "from heaven" as if a star fell from the heavens no longer having a place in the night sky for all to see.

                Hopefully this helps.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post
                  Revelation 12:
                  9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

                  In my opinion, this is telling us that Satan and his angels have lost their immortality. Notice what it says just a few verses later.

                  Revelation 12:
                  12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

                  An immortal being has all the time he needs. But after Satan lost his battle with Michael, he lost his immortality, which is symbolized as his fall "from heaven" as if a star fell from the heavens no longer having a place in the night sky for all to see.

                  Hopefully this helps.
                  I think you are wrong here. I don't think spiritual beings can lose their immortality. Satan being cast down, I think, refers to his being cast out of the third heaven (where God lives), and being locked on Earth and the first and second heavens (first - earths atmosphere, second - the rest of space (the physical universe)). We know that Satan could, for a time, reenter the third heaven because he did so in Job, but I think that when Jesus triumphed at the cross He severely wounded Satan (He will crush your head, but You will wound his heel. some translations say bruise, others say strike). I think that this implies that when Jesus, being the Seed mentioned earlier in Gen 3:15, deals this crippling blow to Satan, after Satan delivers a "flesh wound" to Jesus, Satan would then be more limited in power and scope than he was before hand. And, because I don't believe that spiritual beings can ever lose their immortality, and Revelation both implies and states outright that Satan will burn in Hell forever, reference to only a short time implies that he is now trapped in time, and cannot leave time/space/the physical universe to reenter the third heaven. But I could be wrong about all of this.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Iam_Joshua View Post
                    Brethren,

                    I've been confused on this (question) lately.

                    I know Rev9:1 talks about a 'star' that fell from heaven and was given a key to open the bottomless pit.
                    Rev8:10 also talks of another star falling from heaven which also has a name.

                    Jesus also spoke of stars as 'sign of the times' falling from heaven in the gospels. Take Matthew24:29 for example.

                    And I also read the book of Enoch talking about stars;

                    15.Then the angel said, This place, until the
                    consummation of heaven and earth, will be
                    the prison of the stars, and the host of
                    heaven.
                    16The stars which roll over fire are those
                    which transgressed the commandment of
                    God before their time arrived; for they came
                    not in their proper season. Therefore was He
                    offended with them, and bound them, until
                    the period of the consummation of their
                    crimes in the secret year.


                    *Could the stars represent angels?

                    *If the angels represent stars, how come the dr
                    agon just cast them down to the earth?

                    *What's going to happen to the stars that were casted down, given they were angels?



                    What are your thoughts or opinions on this?
                    Yes in Rev 9.1 a Star falling from Heaven represents an Angel sent down to the Earth.

                    I Rev 8:10, Doctrine would suggest this is an Angel.

                    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
                    This is Metaphor, this is Jesus talking to the Multitude,

                    Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

                    I have not read the book of Enoch, you think Enoch wrote the Book of Enoch?

                    It was not the Dr agon as you said, I think you meant dragon that cast them down to Earth.
                    It was GOD, they were SENT.

                    They were not CAST DOWN, the were sent.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Jp101 View Post

                      Yes in Rev 9.1 a Star falling from Heaven represents an Angel sent down to the Earth.
                      Yes, so many people assume "falling" means something like a fallen/evil angel but a falling star is just an angel traveling down to the Earth. It doesn't imply any negativity. It's the same star/angel seen in Revelation 20 coming down from heaven and the angel has the key because it was given back in Revelation 9.



                      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I can not agree it is the Same Angel, but I do agree they were Sent, not Cast down.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          So, seems stars represent both angels and people alike.

                          Consider something regarding Revelation 12:4.
                          That the origins of humanity lie in the angelic.
                          People who wander aren't necessarily "lost", such as if they are nomads. Nomads aren't lost.
                          Our true personage, and our actual situation, may involve a greater reality and truth of the eternal, or infinite, involving spirit.

                          Revelation 12:4 may be referring to the fall of the angelic, corresponding with the fall of Adam and Eve.
                          The related question is,
                          "Is the Garden of Eden, or Paradise, a heavenly situation?"
                          Think about it...
                          What were the conditions in Paradise, compared to the situation in, "the world", since the fall?
                          Last edited by Sirius18; Mar 23rd 2020, 01:40 AM. Reason: Clarity

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Hi I am-Joshua, You wrote:

                            "Brethren,

                            I've been confused on this (question) lately.

                            I know Rev9:1 talks about a 'star' that fell from heaven and was given a key to open the bottomless pit.
                            Rev8:10 also talks of another star falling from heaven which also has a name.

                            Jesus also spoke of stars as 'sign of the times' falling from heaven in the gospels. Take Matthew24:29 for example.

                            And I also read the book of Enoch talking about stars;

                            15.Then the angel said, This place, until the
                            consummation of heaven and earth, will be
                            the prison of the stars, and the host of
                            heaven.
                            16The stars which roll over fire are those
                            which transgressed the commandment of
                            God before their time arrived; for they came
                            not in their proper season. Therefore was He
                            offended with them, and bound them, until
                            the period of the consummation of their
                            crimes in the secret year.


                            *Could the stars represent angels?

                            *If the angels represent stars, how come the dr
                            agon just cast them down to the earth?

                            *What's going to happen to the stars that were casted down, given they were angels?



                            What are your thoughts or opinions on this?"


                            Matthew 10:29 speaks of a sparrow falling to the ground but the verse says that the father knows that sparrow. The sparrow is a picture of a true believer and God knows that sparrow, meaning that the person is saved. It is very likely that the verse you are wondering about is very similar. The dragon casts stars to the earth with its tail. The stars are pictures of true believers and the dragon is Satan. Although Satan can destroy the body, he cannot destroy the soul (Matthew 10:28). Did you know that Jesus is called the day star which arises in people's hearts? (2 Peter 1:19) Yet Jesus is also "The Angel which redeemed me from all evil"(Genesis 48:16). If Jesus the only redeemer is an angel and if he is also a star we must realize that the Bible is talking about Jesus (who is a person) in both cases. The term 'angel' simply means 'messenger'. God's messengers are his saved persons, including Jesus (the chief messenger), not some other kind of being as people imagine angels. If you look at the woman clothed with the sun in the chapter of Revelation you are interested in, she is a picture of the Jerusalem above, of those who are true believers. She is clothed with the sun, meaning that she is clothed with Christ. The true believers are clothed with Christ righteousness, not their own. The woman has the moon under her feet, meaning that she has achieved victory over the penalty of the law (the moon is a picture of the law in the Bible). She has a crown of 12 stars, which shows that she is reigning as spiritual Israel. The 12 tribes of Israel are a picture of all true believers.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post
                              I agree with "old man", it depends on the context.

                              Stars are luminaries that most everyone can see. And everyone living in the same city sees the same stars in the night sky. Thus, people that everyone knows, famous people, are called "stars." Everyone sees them and everyone seems to know them. Kings and queens, and other royalty are called "stars" because everyone in the nation knows them, or at least knows about them.

                              Stars are also luminaries that guide sailors along courses at sea. Sailors chart courses using Polaris, the northern star. People in the Southern Hemisphere also have stars to guide them. For this reason, anyone who acts as a guide, a sage, a wise teacher, is also called a "luminary" like a star. These people are star-like because they are reliable sources of knowledge and wisdom.

                              Stars never change, or at least they don't change noticeably over thousands of years. For this reason the heavens and those who dwell there, the stars, are considered eternal. Except for the planets, called "wandering stars", the stars never change their courses. And the constellations never change shape. For this reason, stars are used symbolically to represent immortal beings, such as the angels.

                              According to ancient mythology, anyone who attains immortality is said to live "among the stars." Just like the stars, immortals exist beyond one lifetime, and are known to many generations down through history.

                              Falling stars, what we now know as meteors, appear to fall from heaven. What we see is a very bright object that streaks across the sky, lasting only seconds A brief flash, and it's gone. Thus, anyone who loses immortality is said to have "fallen from heaven." Like the fiery meteor, the formerly immortal being has only a short time to live.

                              This sort of symbolism is found in the book of Revelation.

                              Revelation 12:
                              9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

                              In my opinion, this is telling us that Satan and his angels have lost their immortality. Notice what it says just a few verses later.

                              Revelation 12:
                              12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

                              An immortal being has all the time he needs. But after Satan lost his battle with Michael, he lost his immortality, which is symbolized as his fall "from heaven" as if a star fell from the heavens no longer having a place in the night sky for all to see.

                              Hopefully this helps.
                              This is very interesting, you're showing me things I hadn't considered before. What you say about the immortality of Satan, and losing that does make sense.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post

                                I think you are wrong here. I don't think spiritual beings can lose their immortality. Satan being cast down, I think, refers to his being cast out of the third heaven (where God lives), and being locked on Earth and the first and second heavens (first - earths atmosphere, second - the rest of space (the physical universe)). We know that Satan could, for a time, reenter the third heaven because he did so in Job, but I think that when Jesus triumphed at the cross He severely wounded Satan (He will crush your head, but You will wound his heel. some translations say bruise, others say strike). I think that this implies that when Jesus, being the Seed mentioned earlier in Gen 3:15, deals this crippling blow to Satan, after Satan delivers a "flesh wound" to Jesus, Satan would then be more limited in power and scope than he was before hand. And, because I don't believe that spiritual beings can ever lose their immortality, and Revelation both implies and states outright that Satan will burn in Hell forever, reference to only a short time implies that he is now trapped in time, and cannot leave time/space/the physical universe to reenter the third heaven. But I could be wrong about all of this.
                                I also find agreement here. You make a very good point regarding the lessening of Satan's powers. We see that when Christ went about casting out devils/demons. Satan could no longer hold these people in his power. Perhaps they were seed that hear the word but did not understand it, so Satan indwells them, taking the word that was sown, keeping them from hearing, believing and being saved (see parable of seeds). Satan had this power before the cross, but after the cross, Christ and His Word, through His Spirit casts him out.

                                Comment

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