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  • Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    First, I apologize very much for being so brief. And I wish I could spend more time filling out the details. But the Lord has blessed me with boat load of work and I need to work hard and overtime in order to fulfill all my contracts on time. (smile)

    I accept the premise that salvation is conditional, but I don't agree that salvation is an offer that must be accepted or rejected. This picture of salvation, i.e.rewarded for making the right decision, is not Biblical from my perspective. Rather, the New Testament teaches us that salvation is a miracle of God, which is why it is without contingency. If God is saving an individual, God will not fail to save that individual. Whatever conditions that attend salvation, God satisfies all of them himself.
    Salvation is either accepted or rejected. There simply is no Salvation with out acceptance. If you believe in Christ you have accepted the truth of Him. We receive Christ which also demands acceptance. Grace always comes through faith. The truth is no Faith no Grace. Many claim they are saved to believe but scripture states we must believe to be saved Acts 16:32

    Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    If God is saving a man, God will create faith in that man; he will give that man a heart to repent and confess his sins; he will give that man the strength of will to persevere under trial. God will give that man full knowledge of Jesus Christ; he will give that man wisdom, and knowledge; he will give that man a vision and a hope to last into the next age.

    Salvation is not something we accept and then reject. Salvation is a miracle of God; creating in the beloved the necessary qualities and attributes necessary to produce a man or woman of God who will never rebel or reject him.

    (Lord willing, more later.)
    The Faith of every believer is tested and God has already given faith to every man. It's up to the man of who he places that faith in. We are created with a measure of faith

    Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
    Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    Sawyer

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sawyer View Post
      Salvation is either accepted or rejected.
      When I was a boy I jumped into the deep end of the pool. As I was going down, about to loose my life, salvation was not my choice. When they pulled me out of the water, I was glad to see my parents again. When is salvation EVER an offer to be accepted or rejected. The very notion is absurd on its face.

      If you believe in Christ you have accepted the truth of Him.
      Yes, I received Christ and now affirm his teaching. In retrospect, I discovered that God was already saving me, even before I made the choice to follow his son. We aren't "saved" past tense, we are "being saved", present participle i.e. continuous action.

      Grace always comes through faith.
      If you mean to say that grace is a response to belief, I disagree. The New Testament teaches that belief is in response to grace. Grace comes before faith.

      Many claim they are saved to believe but scripture states we must believe to be saved Acts 16:32
      Luke writes, "you shall be saved", placing salvation in the future. Nonetheless, we have evidence of prevenient grace in the same text, for how can someone believe unless a preacher is sent? Do you think it was a coincidence that Paul the apostle was put into jail, giving the jailer an opportunity to hear the gospel? Do you think God's work in the life of the jailer was opportunistic or planned? When does God ever leave anything to chance?

      The Faith of every believer is tested and God has already given faith to every man. It's up to the man of who he places that faith in. We are created with a measure of faith
      The testing of our faith brings us joy, according to James, because through testing, we learn something about our propensity to endure. And, as Paul says, we exult in our trials because we know that our endurance is predicated on the Holy Spirit being poured out in our hearts. (Romans 5)


      Comment


      • Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
        My contention is that not all are invited to the banquet. They could not accept or reject that what was offered.
        If salvation is not for all, the Jesus did not die for all. I don't have to remind you how wrong this is...

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
          If all would reject the offer (which could be possible according to free will) then none were saved.
          Evidently not all rejected or believed the gospel. This is true of humanity; in the exercise of free-will we are never going to have a consensus because some will accept and some will not. So claiming that Jesus Christ didn't save anyone again, is wrong.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
            Yes they are one. The Father will not judge without the Son and the Son without the Father. God said He will not give His honour to another and Jesus is God. I agree with you except that He paid the price for all. His atonement was only for the elect.
            Technically, you are arguing that Jesus didn't die for all? I am at a loss why you maintain this view.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
              His theology is. Jesus' work does not accomplish anything if man does not finish it.
              When you say "if man does not finish it", it suggests that man has to work to make Jesus Christ's sacrifice effective. I'm sure you know this is not true?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                As I have said previously it was not and is not even today. Many people today dies without even having heard of Jesus.
                It's debatable whether there's anyone in the whole wide world that has not heard about Jesus Christ. Hearing about Christ and not believing in him are two different things. All the tribes in the Amazon rain forest have heard the gospel. The Muslims, the Hindus and Buddhists also know about Jesus. The fact they reject the gospel doesn't mean they have not heard about Jesus.

                Jesus said that the gospel will be preached to every part of the world for a witness and then the end will come. The gospel has now reached every corner of the world, hence we are on the count down to the coming of the Messiah.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                  This is my problem with this. He was then not a complete Saviour, because they still need to hear the Gospel to be saved. As I have said it then would be possible that He saved no one.
                  Jesus died for all and is a complete saviour according to Paul in 2 Cor 5:17And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sawyer View Post
                    We are a purchased possession. would you give up Christ? I know the answer. Neither would I. Why do you suppose someone would. Many sit in Churches for a lot of reasons other than Christ. Some just want to be seen as righteous. Others think it gives them prestige. I met a preacher once that told me it was a living to preach. All the man cared about was money and he made a lot of it.He up and left the church high and dry. After he got out of prison about 5 years latter I ran into him on whiskey row where the drunks hung out. He said that he was a preacher because it was his parents wishes. Said he didn't believe in God or Jesus. He said it was just a bunch of xxxxx
                    I was shocked. I tried to lead him to Christ. Though he was ahead of me on every step. then he cursed me out and left. Saddly this is the condition of a lot of people in churches they're only there for another reason and Not Christ or Salvation.

                    I believe when a person falls away it's because they are like the hard ground where at fist they spring up but because they have no root they wilt away never saved in the first placed.
                    Myself I come to Love the Lord which is why I went forward and prayed for Salvation. This wasn't the kind of love you have for your wife or even your children. This love I have makes me die every day to sin. People do not leave Jesus if they love Him.
                    That some professing Christians in the church are not for Christ and not really saved, is not news. Paul said so in 2 Timothy 2:20-21. The preacher you spoke about fits the description of those Paul described as the "enemies of the cross" Phil 3:18-19. However, it is possible for a saved person to fall back and reject Christ if they fail to endure hardship for Christ

                    Originally posted by Sawyer View Post
                    I read everyone of the scriptures you posted and not one says man can loose there Salvation. I love Paul for His epistels. However as good as He was. Paul is not Christ. Being cut off from the root still boils down to the seed that fell on stoney Hard ground
                    Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
                    Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
                    Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
                    Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

                    All these examples received the word in the hearts but only one was saved. Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.Sawyer
                    To say that the passages I cited didn't show that the saved can lose their salvation, suggest you didn't understand what Paul said in the texts. Rom 11:21-22 is not about those that received the gospel but didn't believe it. So your doctrine is simply flawed.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                      How do you reconcile the following with what you had said?

                      Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, Are you saying He won't keep you from falling? I know that all men could and will fall if not for the promise of God.
                      Jude 1:24 does not stop a believer who of his own free will chooses to abandon his faith in Christ. See what Paul said below:

                      1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

                      Just in case KJV isn't clearly understood, below is the Amplified Version - with clarity of language of the texts.

                      1 Tim 4:1 But the [Holy] Spirit explicitly and unmistakably declares that in later times some will turn away from the faith, paying attention instead to deceitful and seductive spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 [misled] by the hypocrisy of liars whose consciences are seared as with a branding iron [leaving them incapable of ethical functioning]

                      Here, the Holy Spirit warned that in the end time/latter times (hope you agree that we are in the end times now?) some believers will depart from faith in Christ! Since it is impossible to depart from faith if you never had it, it is clear the passage is referring to saved believers as those of faith. This is just one of a zillion warnings in the Bible that if we fail to abide in Christ to the end, we will not receive eternal life (loss of salvation). You may interpret the Bible as you please and deny what is plainly stated i.e. that salvation can be lost, but it won't change what God has expressly declared through his Apostles.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                        Am I understanding you that the payment is conditional?
                        Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
                        How do you understand this verse? If we are reconciled, how much more will we be saved by Christ. Where is the condition?
                        Again if He paid the price we are reconciled. Why would He not finish that which He had begun for you?
                        Perhaps you should try answering some of your questions yourself? Jesus died for ALL so that as many as believe in him might be saved. Are you saying he didn't also die for those who reject him? And yes, he paid the price with his life that we might be reconciled with him, but he can't save anyone that rejects him. So your question "why would He not finish that which He had begun for you" only pertains to those who believe. The scripture can't be more clearer on this.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post
                          First, I apologize very much for being so brief. And I wish I could spend more time filling out the details. But the Lord has blessed me with boat load of work and I need to work hard and overtime in order to fulfill all my contracts on time. (smile)

                          I accept the premise that salvation is conditional, but I don't agree that salvation is an offer that must be accepted or rejected. This picture of salvation, i.e.rewarded for making the right decision, is not Biblical from my perspective. Rather, the New Testament teaches us that salvation is a miracle of God, which is why it is without contingency. If God is saving an individual, God will not fail to save that individual. Whatever conditions that attend salvation, God satisfies all of them himself.

                          If God is saving a man, God will create faith in that man; he will give that man a heart to repent and confess his sins; he will give that man the strength of will to persevere under trial. God will give that man full knowledge of Jesus Christ; he will give that man wisdom, and knowledge; he will give that man a vision and a hope to last into the next age.

                          Salvation is not something we accept and then reject. Salvation is a miracle of God; creating in the beloved the necessary qualities and attributes necessary to produce a man or woman of God who will never rebel or reject him. (Lord willing, more later.)
                          Your position posits that God is biased and partial - choosing some to save and leaving others to perish. Unless and you and I are serving different Gods, but your view is NOT a true picture of the God I serve.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post
                            When I was a boy I jumped into the deep end of the pool. As I was going down, about to loose my life, salvation was not my choice. When they pulled me out of the water, I was glad to see my parents again. When is salvation EVER an offer to be accepted or rejected. The very notion is absurd on its face.
                            You described salvation as "a miracle of God". I agree. But it's more than that. You said it's not an offer that can be accepted or rejected, yet many receive the gospel and still refuse to believe. Below is a notable example: Acts 26:27King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest. 28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

                            King Agrippa was unable to fault Paul's gospel and yet could not bring himself to accept it. Would you say in all sincerity that by rejecting the gospel, he also rejected the salvation that comes with belief and acceptance? You seem to separate being saved from salvation. Because if you agree that once a heathen is saved, he also receives salvation, then it's impossible to deny that one cannot accept or reject salvation. There is nothing absurd about it.

                            Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post
                            Yes, I received Christ and now affirm his teaching. In retrospect, I discovered that God was already saving me, even before I made the choice to follow his son. We aren't "saved" past tense, we are "being saved", present participle i.e. continuous action.
                            The view that we are continuously "being saved" is wrong and contrary to scripture.

                            Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
                            Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?


                            You are a smart guy, so I don't have to copy and paste a bunch of scriptures to drive the point home. Notice that both texts above say we "are saved" (past tense), why? Because we are saved at the point we accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. This idea that we're continuously being saved is unscriptural. We are incapable of perfection in holiness while we are in the flesh, hence the need for continued prayer for forgiveness. I hope this isn't what you're confusing for being continuously saved?

                            Think about it, God doesn't need a lifetime to save one who has accepted him as Saviour, does he?

                            Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post
                            Luke writes, "you shall be saved", placing salvation in the future. Nonetheless, we have evidence of prevenient grace in the same text, for how can someone believe unless a preacher is sent? Do you think it was a coincidence that Paul the apostle was put into jail, giving the jailer an opportunity to hear the gospel? Do you think God's work in the life of the jailer was opportunistic or planned? When does God ever leave anything to chance?
                            We all know that nobody can claim to have God all figured out on how he saves. You have cited a good example above, but allow me to throw in another that goes against the grain. In Acts 10, Cornelius, a gentile, had already believed God without prior knowledge of the gospel. Attesting to his belief, God sent an angel to tell him that his prayers and alms have come up before him for a memorial (v3-6). How is this possible you might ask?

                            Paul argued in Rom 2: 14:15 that those without the Mosaic law can also by nature, do the things that are in the law. Thus by obedience to the inherent spirit in them, such people do acts of righteousness. Some call it the law of common sense or the law of knowing right from wrong. In Cornelius' case, he just figured that there must be a God in heaven that put the whole creation together! Thus, praying earnestly to that God whom he didn't fully understand, God received his prayers and sent Peter to reveal Him (through the gospel) to Cornelius.

                            Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post
                            The testing of our faith brings us joy, according to James, because through testing, we learn something about our propensity to endure. And, as Paul says, we exult in our trials because we know that our endurance is predicated on the Holy Spirit being poured out in our hearts. (Romans 5)
                            True. But sad to say, some believers fail to see that their trial of faith is intended to make them stronger and grow in spirit. Hopefully, you've read of believers and Apostles that turned back from faith when trials and tribulations for Christ came upon them? So not every believer comes out of his trial smelling of roses, unfortunately.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

                              Your position posits that God is biased and partial - choosing some to save and leaving others to perish. Unless and you and I are serving different Gods, but your view is NOT a true picture of the God I serve.
                              The Bible draws a distinction between "elect" and "partiality." The difference between these two concepts is twofold: 1) the person chosen, 2) and the reason for choosing him or her.

                              The person:
                              election - The person whom God chooses is no different than any other person.
                              partiality - The biased elector chooses a person based on some quality, state or distinction found in the person elected.

                              Peter argues that God is not biased or partial, and in that context, he means to say that the basis of God's election is not inherent in the person. That is, God is not saving Jews alone, or men alone or rich people alone. He is saving people from wall walks of life, every family line, every station, every nation, and every age of history. In God, there is no partiality.

                              The reason - (the purpose it serves)

                              But to say that God is impartial is not to suggest that God is not an elector of persons. (Isaiah 42:1) God sets aside various people to serve special purposes. The Biblical term for that choice is "holy"; to be consecrated for a special purpose is to be "sanctified". (From the Latin: sanctus = holy) Holy bread, for instance, is no different than regular bread. There is no chemical or physical difference between holy bread and regular bread. One is set aside for a holy purpose, and the other is eaten for lunch. What makes it "holy" is the purpose it serves.

                              For instance, God chose the people of Israel to be his holy people. Was Israel taken by preference based on some unique quality she possessed? Not according to God. According to him, his choice was not predicated on her unique qualities. (Deuteronomy 7:7, Isaiah 43:25, Ezekiel 36:22, 32)

                              We are not being saved because of some special quality we possess. We are being saved in order to serve his purpose and plans.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post

                                The Bible draws a distinction between "elect" and "partiality." The difference between these two concepts is twofold: 1) the person chosen, 2) and the reason for choosing him or her.

                                The person:
                                election - The person whom God chooses is no different than any other person.
                                partiality - The biased elector chooses a person based on some quality, state or distinction found in the person elected.

                                Peter argues that God is not biased or partial, and in that context, he means to say that the basis of God's election is not inherent in the person. That is, God is not saving Jews alone, or men alone or rich people alone. He is saving people from wall walks of life, every family line, every station, every nation, and every age of history. In God, there is no partiality.

                                The reason - (the purpose it serves)

                                But to say that God is impartial is not to suggest that God is not an elector of persons. (Isaiah 42:1) God sets aside various people to serve special purposes. The Biblical term for that choice is "holy"; to be consecrated for a special purpose is to be "sanctified". (From the Latin: sanctus = holy) Holy bread, for instance, is no different than regular bread. There is no chemical or physical difference between holy bread and regular bread. One is set aside for a holy purpose, and the other is eaten for lunch. What makes it "holy" is the purpose it serves.

                                For instance, God chose the people of Israel to be his holy people. Was Israel taken by preference based on some unique quality she possessed? Not according to God. According to him, his choice was not predicated on her unique qualities. (Deuteronomy 7:7, Isaiah 43:25, Ezekiel 36:22, 32)

                                We are not being saved because of some special quality we possess. We are being saved in order to serve his purpose and plans.
                                Hmm. Please consider Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

                                Is the "us" in the above the Elect? Is love toward the Elect alone not showing partiality? Yes, all are sinners, but does God only love some of them? The quality of the elector choosing would be that of "loving them". I'm sorry, but if God does not love all, then this would show some kind of partiality. If I were to tell my wife that I selected her from among all women and saw her as no different than any one of them, I might experience a colder winter. Of course we are partial, but is God? John 3:16 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. We have the same thing in John 3:16 where Jesus says that because God so loved the world, the purpose of His begotten Son is stated. Love is the motive. Does God love all, or is God partial? Was Jesus given to all because God loved us all and all His creation? Or was Jesus given to just those God loved?
                                Watchinginawe

                                I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

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