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I never knew you - depart from Me [I][B]are Christians[/B][/I] (Matt.7:23)

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  • I never knew you - depart from Me [I][B]are Christians[/B][/I] (Matt.7:23)

    The text under consideration is Matthew 7:21-23;

    21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
    22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
    23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'"


    Because of the thousand years that the Roman Church hid the Bible and forbade the Laity of reading, studying and commenting on their studies, we still suffer from some Roman myths. One of the most devastating of these is the commonly taught doctrine that when men die they either land in heaven or in hell, and that the earth will be destroyed at length. Thus, salvation is not connected to God’s original plan with man in Genesis 1:26, “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.” But God’s councils are immutable and the TWO things that man is to be are still the main theme of the Bible;
    1. Which men get to be in the image of God?
    2. Which men get to be rulers of this earth and its environs of sea and sky?

    While vitally important, I will, for this treatise, not deal with point #1. What is clear from point #2 is that the Bible starts with God’s plan that man should be the ultimate rulers of the earth, and it ends with a City, New Jerusalem, made of men in resurrection and who rule the earth “forever” (Rev.22:5). In between these two verses lies a primeval battle for this earth. And if so, any man who does not end up ruling on this earth cannot claim to be fully saved. “Salvation” is not only to be saved from the Lake of Fire. It is, who will be in the image of Christ, and who will rule with Him. It includes the rebirth of the human spirit, possessing the divine nature, the salvation of the soul, the resurrection of the body, being conformed to the image of Christ AND being re-instated as ruler who replaces “the prince of this world” - Satan. Besides large portions of the New Testament dealing with this subject, prophets of old like Daniel predicted the great Governmental powers of this earth and their end in an everlasting Kingdom of God to be ruled according to heavenly precepts.

    The Book of Matthew introduces the Coming and Everlasting King - Jesus, Son Abraham for ruling the earth (Rom.4:13) and Son of David for ruling Israel. And in this Book, as it unfolds the Coming Kingdom of God that will be ruled according to the rules of Heaven, the co-kings of Jesus Christ are introduced. Also introduced is the rigorous training and behavior of these future co-kings. They are those who (1) are sons of God (by rebirth) - those who can call God “Father”, (2) learn to deny themselves and their souls, even unto death, (3) crucify their flesh daily, (4) are obedient to the will of their Head Jesus and their God Jehovah, even to the loss of everything, and (5) form an intimate bonding and relationship with their Coming Bridegroom, Jesus.

    In Matthew Chapters 5 to 7 the kind of behavior, NOT of the Jew whose behavior is regulated by Law, and NOT of the Gentile who is without Law, is set forth for the future co-king of Jesus. The seemingly strange set of rules for behavior in these three Chapters are there because the time of the training of these co-kings coincides with the time that God gives men to be reconciled with Him. Turning the other cheek is NOT justice, but God requires it of His future co-kings because God gives man TIME - 2,000 years, to be reconciled to Him. And during this TIME that the future co-kings have the “ministry of reconciliation” (2nd Cor.5:18-19), justice and judgment are delayed, but not forgotten. According to this same Book Matthew’s 25th Chapter, there is a judgment for all those who struck a blow at a Christian at the END of the age (vs.31-46). But in the mean time, the "disciple" of Jesus is to forego justice for the sake of God's plan.

    Now the Chapters on the behavior of the Christian during the time of reconciliation end in Matthew 7 with a judgment for the Christian. And the judgment is NOT about who goes to the Lake of Fire or not, IT IS ABOUT WHO GETS TO ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN when Christ sets it up on earth after His return. That is, WHO WILL BE QUALIFIED TO BE A CO-KING WITH JESUS?

    It my considered opinion that the “lawless” who were told to “depart” from the Lord in that day of judgment are Christians. My argument is thus;
    • The whole discourse of Matthew 5, 6 and 7 is aimed at the Christian. In Matthew 5:1-2 it reads; “And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying”. According to the grammar, although there was a “multitude”, the ones taught where His disciples. He taught “THEM” - the disciples.
    • Further proof of this is that throughout the discourse our Lord Jesus referred to God as “My Father”, “your Father” and “our Father”. One can only call God “Father” if one is born from Him (Jn.1:12-13). That is, the subjects of this discourse are all born-again disciples.
    • Concerning our text in Chapter 7, verse 21 starts by those who call, “LORD, LORD!” According to Acts 2:21, Romans 10:9 and 13, they are those “SAVED” who call upon the Lord. They knew Who He was and called Him “Lord”.
    • The QUALIFICATION here for entering the Kingdom of Heaven on earth when the Lord sets it up is NOT rebirth. That is already taken for granted as in point #2. The qualification for entering the Kingdom is, “… he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” It is OBEDIENCE to God.
    • These men and women who would enter the Kingdom “prophesied in His Name”. This is a twofold proof of being a Christian. First, prophecy comes from the Holy Spirit as we see in 1st Corinthians 12, and second, these men and women knew the name of Jesus and its power.
    • These men and women "cast out demons in Jesus’s Name". According to Mark 16:17 one of the signs that shall follow “them that believe” is that they, “… shall they cast out demons”. And it is not possible that Satan could counterfeit this for the Lord assured us in Mark 3:22-26 that Satan would “end” his kingdom and house if he cast out demons.
    • These men and women “did MANY wonders” in Jesus’ Name. Not only do the attach their miracles to Jesus and His Name, but they did “MANY”. In Egypt, Israel and against the Church Satan did “lying wonders”, but they were FEW compared to those of God. Only Christians could do MANY wonders and do them in Jesus’ Name.
    • Finally, the devastating judgment of our Lord Jesus says it all. The word is “DEPART!” These were COMPANIONS of Jesus. They were with Him! You cannot “depart” if you were not with a person in the first place. The Jew hates Christ, and the Gentile would never be with Him. Only those who were with Him can be ordered to “depart”.

    But the question we must now answer is, “how come these things of God and our Lord Jesus are works of LAWLESSNESS?” The answer lies in the first part of verse 21. Were they done at the command of God? That they were done by His power is not questioned. But did God, and the Head of the Church, Jesus, ask these men and women, at that specific moment, to do these things? We have an example of this in Acts 16:6-10. Paul was forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in both Asia and Bithynia. How come? Is not the great commission to preach the Word “to the uttermost parts of the earth”? YES! But as the Lord and head of the Church directs! There is no “doing your own thing” in the Church. Just like David in 2nd Samuel Chapter 5 when he repeatedly asks the Lord about battling the Philistines, God has a plan of the day. It is not the Christian who plans for the Lord! It is God Who makes the plans and we OBEY! Should you cast out a demon today? Who knows - ask God. It was not the acts that were Lawless, but the actors! It was not the things that were illegal but the “PRACTICES” of the servants. They did their own thing with their Talents. They did not inquire of the Master! They did NOT do the will of their Father!

    And the glaring reason is revealed in verse 23 - “I NEVER KNEW YOU!” The Greek word here for “know” is Strong’s #1097 γινώσκω, transliterated “ginōskō”. It does not mean that our Lord Jesus did not have intellectual knowledge of them. He is God and knows all things. The word means that He did not have an intimate knowledge or recognition or understanding that a man and wife have of each other. It is used for sexual intercourse in Matthew 1:25, for reading the minds of men in Matthew 12:15 and understanding a situation in Matthew 26:10. It denotes an intimate understanding of a person. These Christians had been so busy doing their own thing that they had had no time to get to know Jesus, to be intimate with Him or to develop an intimate relationship. This is the number 1 cause of “lawlessness” among Christians. Not outright evil, but doing their own things in what THEY think pleases the Lord. And we have another hint of how to “know” Jesus that Christians rather shy away from. The same Greek word is used by Paul in Philippians 3:10, “That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death”, to show that getting to know Jesus is to walk His road with Him. That road was fraught with danger, enemies, persecutions, rejections, sufferings, and finally death for taking His position. That is how to intimately know Jesus.

    And now, the most sobering of all. Verse 22 starts with the word “MANY”. That is, this phenomenon of Christians failing to enter the Kingdom when our Lord sets it up on earth is for the MANY. That is, MOST of Christianity, or the BULK of Christianity will fail to become co-kings with Jesus in the Millennium. And this comes from no other source THAN JESUS HIMSELF! How is your intimacy with Jesus? Have you walked His road? Have you “known” Him intimately? Have you suffered with Him? Have you been OBEDIENT to Him? THE KINGDOM IS AT STAKE!

    P.S. Please excuse the Title. It cannot be edited.

  • #2
    Re: I never knew you - depart from Me are Christians (Matt.7:23)

    Originally posted by kyCyd
    Walls it is a serious matter for sure. I can tell you from personal experience...that most Christians don't know Jesus or His words...they study and quote Paul. I will say but Jesus said... they will come back with Paul and then usually quote this scripture to me:
    2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    I then say, Jesus said this:
    Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

    Mt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    What words are more important? It even says this about the Holy Spirit:
    John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    The Holy Spirit has a purpose.... it is for what Jesus said, no one else. Personally I see Christians when face to face with Jesus doing the same thing...quoting something other than what God or Jesus says. Would then Jesus say depart from me? For me that is my fear...so I stay in the gospels, the law, the prophets and the psalms that Jesus mentioned. The other books are history to me. There are probably not many that would feel that way, but that is me.
    I think you are on the right path. We have His WRITTEN WORD. We have His spoken word via the Prophets in the Church ( and I don't mean those who predict the future like soothsayers). I mean those of 1st Corinthians 14:3. And we have the INDWELLING Spirit of God in our spirits (Jn.14:20, 23) which we are bound to let LEAD US (Rom.8:14). Woe to the Christian who thinks he/she knows better than God and tries to lead God. Let us be spoken to in that still small voice and obey.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: I never knew you - depart from Me are Christians (Matt.7:23)

      If they are Christians, how do you deal with the part where Jesus said "... I never knew you..."? Once Jesus knows someone, His seed is in them and He is in them and He knows them and calls them by name. Or do you mean they are cultural Christians who have never been born again?
      Matt 9:13
      13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
      NASU

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: I never knew you - depart from Me are Christians (Matt.7:23)

        Originally posted by kyCyd
        Walls it is a serious matter for sure. I can tell you from personal experience...that most Christians don't know Jesus or His words...they study and quote Paul. I will say but Jesus said... they will come back with Paul and then usually quote this scripture to me:
        2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
        Paul taught what Christ taught to him. Paul is an Apostle of Christ.
        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: I never knew you - depart from Me are Christians (Matt.7:23)

          Originally posted by Walls View Post
          The text under consideration is Matthew 7:21-23;

          21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
          22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
          23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'"


          Because of the thousand years that the Roman Church hid the Bible and forbade the Laity of reading, studying and commenting on their studies, we still suffer from some Roman myths. One of the most devastating of these is the commonly taught doctrine that when men die they either land in heaven or in hell, and that the earth will be destroyed at length. Thus, salvation is not connected to God’s original plan with man in Genesis 1:26, “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.” But God’s councils are immutable and the TWO things that man is to be are still the main theme of the Bible;
          1. Which men get to be in the image of God?
          2. Which men get to be rulers of this earth and its environs of sea and sky?

          While vitally important, I will, for this treatise, not deal with point #1. What is clear from point #2 is that the Bible starts with God’s plan that man should be the ultimate rulers of the earth, and it ends with a City, New Jerusalem, made of men in resurrection and who rule the earth “forever” (Rev.22:5). In between these two verses lies a primeval battle for this earth. And if so, any man who does not end up ruling on this earth cannot claim to be fully saved. “Salvation” is not only to be saved from the Lake of Fire. It is, who will be in the image of Christ, and who will rule with Him. It includes the rebirth of the human spirit, possessing the divine nature, the salvation of the soul, the resurrection of the body, being conformed to the image of Christ AND being re-instated as ruler who replaces “the prince of this world” - Satan. Besides large portions of the New Testament dealing with this subject, prophets of old like Daniel predicted the great Governmental powers of this earth and their end in an everlasting Kingdom of God to be ruled according to heavenly precepts.

          The Book of Matthew introduces the Coming and Everlasting King - Jesus, Son Abraham for ruling the earth (Rom.4:13) and Son of David for ruling Israel. And in this Book, as it unfolds the Coming Kingdom of God that will be ruled according to the rules of Heaven, the co-kings of Jesus Christ are introduced. Also introduced is the rigorous training and behavior of these future co-kings. They are those who (1) are sons of God (by rebirth) - those who can call God “Father”, (2) learn to deny themselves and their souls, even unto death, (3) crucify their flesh daily, (4) are obedient to the will of their Head Jesus and their God Jehovah, even to the loss of everything, and (5) form an intimate bonding and relationship with their Coming Bridegroom, Jesus.

          In Matthew Chapters 5 to 7 the kind of behavior, NOT of the Jew whose behavior is regulated by Law, and NOT of the Gentile who is without Law, is set forth for the future co-king of Jesus. The seemingly strange set of rules for behavior in these three Chapters are there because the time of the training of these co-kings coincides with the time that God gives men to be reconciled with Him. Turning the other cheek is NOT justice, but God requires it of His future co-kings because God gives man TIME - 2,000 years, to be reconciled to Him. And during this TIME that the future co-kings have the “ministry of reconciliation” (2nd Cor.5:18-19), justice and judgment are delayed, but not forgotten. According to this same Book Matthew’s 25th Chapter, there is a judgment for all those who struck a blow at a Christian at the END of the age (vs.31-46). But in the mean time, the "disciple" of Jesus is to forego justice for the sake of God's plan.

          Now the Chapters on the behavior of the Christian during the time of reconciliation end in Matthew 7 with a judgment for the Christian. And the judgment is NOT about who goes to the Lake of Fire or not, IT IS ABOUT WHO GETS TO ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN when Christ sets it up on earth after His return. That is, WHO WILL BE QUALIFIED TO BE A CO-KING WITH JESUS?

          It my considered opinion that the “lawless” who were told to “depart” from the Lord in that day of judgment are Christians. My argument is thus;
          • The whole discourse of Matthew 5, 6 and 7 is aimed at the Christian. In Matthew 5:1-2 it reads; “And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying”. According to the grammar, although there was a “multitude”, the ones taught where His disciples. He taught “THEM” - the disciples.
          • Further proof of this is that throughout the discourse our Lord Jesus referred to God as “My Father”, “your Father” and “our Father”. One can only call God “Father” if one is born from Him (Jn.1:12-13). That is, the subjects of this discourse are all born-again disciples.
          • Concerning our text in Chapter 7, verse 21 starts by those who call, “LORD, LORD!” According to Acts 2:21, Romans 10:9 and 13, they are those “SAVED” who call upon the Lord. They knew Who He was and called Him “Lord”.
          • The QUALIFICATION here for entering the Kingdom of Heaven on earth when the Lord sets it up is NOT rebirth. That is already taken for granted as in point #2. The qualification for entering the Kingdom is, “… he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” It is OBEDIENCE to God.
          • These men and women who would enter the Kingdom “prophesied in His Name”. This is a twofold proof of being a Christian. First, prophecy comes from the Holy Spirit as we see in 1st Corinthians 12, and second, these men and women knew the name of Jesus and its power.
          • These men and women "cast out demons in Jesus’s Name". According to Mark 16:17 one of the signs that shall follow “them that believe” is that they, “… shall they cast out demons”. And it is not possible that Satan could counterfeit this for the Lord assured us in Mark 3:22-26 that Satan would “end” his kingdom and house if he cast out demons.
          • These men and women “did MANY wonders” in Jesus’ Name. Not only do the attach their miracles to Jesus and His Name, but they did “MANY”. In Egypt, Israel and against the Church Satan did “lying wonders”, but they were FEW compared to those of God. Only Christians could do MANY wonders and do them in Jesus’ Name.
          • Finally, the devastating judgment of our Lord Jesus says it all. The word is “DEPART!” These were COMPANIONS of Jesus. They were with Him! You cannot “depart” if you were not with a person in the first place. The Jew hates Christ, and the Gentile would never be with Him. Only those who were with Him can be ordered to “depart”.

          But the question we must now answer is, “how come these things of God and our Lord Jesus are works of LAWLESSNESS?” The answer lies in the first part of verse 21. Were they done at the command of God? That they were done by His power is not questioned. But did God, and the Head of the Church, Jesus, ask these men and women, at that specific moment, to do these things? We have an example of this in Acts 16:6-10. Paul was forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in both Asia and Bithynia. How come? Is not the great commission to preach the Word “to the uttermost parts of the earth”? YES! But as the Lord and head of the Church directs! There is no “doing your own thing” in the Church. Just like David in 2nd Samuel Chapter 5 when he repeatedly asks the Lord about battling the Philistines, God has a plan of the day. It is not the Christian who plans for the Lord! It is God Who makes the plans and we OBEY! Should you cast out a demon today? Who knows - ask God. It was not the acts that were Lawless, but the actors! It was not the things that were illegal but the “PRACTICES” of the servants. They did their own thing with their Talents. They did not inquire of the Master! They did NOT do the will of their Father!

          And the glaring reason is revealed in verse 23 - “I NEVER KNEW YOU!” The Greek word here for “know” is Strong’s #1097 γινώσκω, transliterated “ginōskō”. It does not mean that our Lord Jesus did not have intellectual knowledge of them. He is God and knows all things. The word means that He did not have an intimate knowledge or recognition or understanding that a man and wife have of each other. It is used for sexual intercourse in Matthew 1:25, for reading the minds of men in Matthew 12:15 and understanding a situation in Matthew 26:10. It denotes an intimate understanding of a person. These Christians had been so busy doing their own thing that they had had no time to get to know Jesus, to be intimate with Him or to develop an intimate relationship. This is the number 1 cause of “lawlessness” among Christians. Not outright evil, but doing their own things in what THEY think pleases the Lord. And we have another hint of how to “know” Jesus that Christians rather shy away from. The same Greek word is used by Paul in Philippians 3:10, “That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death”, to show that getting to know Jesus is to walk His road with Him. That road was fraught with danger, enemies, persecutions, rejections, sufferings, and finally death for taking His position. That is how to intimately know Jesus.

          And now, the most sobering of all. Verse 22 starts with the word “MANY”. That is, this phenomenon of Christians failing to enter the Kingdom when our Lord sets it up on earth is for the MANY. That is, MOST of Christianity, or the BULK of Christianity will fail to become co-kings with Jesus in the Millennium. And this comes from no other source THAN JESUS HIMSELF! How is your intimacy with Jesus? Have you walked His road? Have you “known” Him intimately? Have you suffered with Him? Have you been OBEDIENT to Him? THE KINGDOM IS AT STAKE!

          P.S. Please excuse the Title. It cannot be edited.
          There are many churches who advertise on their websites and their bulletins that they accept sin. It screams, go ahead and come to our church, we openingly encourage and support your sin. Speaking of all the churches here who support same sex marriages and homosexuality in my area and their parking lots are full.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: I never knew you - depart from Me are Christians (Matt.7:23)

            I can't say I agree with all that, but certainly some of it is good stuff. For one, it isn't enough to do good. We have to obey God. That's true.

            But the material about who gets to be in the Kingdom of Christ is a little difficult for me. For me, it's just a matter of being born again. To rule with Christ means to rule over the earth as God's people. Even the most backslidden, born again Christian can rule in the Kingdom of God. There is no backsliding there!

            The "many" who do works for God, including miracles, refer to those, like the Jews, who have claimed to be "God's People," attend church, and profess belief in God's word. And yet, they aren't really born again. They just use God for gain in this world.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: I never knew you - depart from Me are Christians (Matt.7:23)

              Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
              If they are Christians, how do you deal with the part where Jesus said "... I never knew you..."? Once Jesus knows someone, His seed is in them and He is in them and He knows them and calls them by name. Or do you mean they are cultural Christians who have never been born again?
              May I refer you to the second last paragraph of the OP. If you still have questions I am happy to answer them.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: I never knew you - depart from Me are Christians (Matt.7:23)

                Originally posted by DavidC View Post
                There are many churches who advertise on their websites and their bulletins that they accept sin. It screams, go ahead and come to our church, we openingly encourage and support your sin. Speaking of all the churches here who support same sex marriages and homosexuality in my area and their parking lots are full.
                Exactly. Do apostate Christians, who have thrown out God's testimony in favor of the flesh and worldly appetites, expect to me named co-kings with Christ in the next age? I think not.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: I never knew you - depart from Me are Christians (Matt.7:23)

                  Originally posted by randyk View Post
                  I can't say I agree with all that, but certainly some of it is good stuff. For one, it isn't enough to do good. We have to obey God. That's true.

                  But the material about who gets to be in the Kingdom of Christ is a little difficult for me. For me, it's just a matter of being born again. To rule with Christ means to rule over the earth as God's people. Even the most backslidden, born again Christian can rule in the Kingdom of God. There is no backsliding there!

                  The "many" who do works for God, including miracles, refer to those, like the Jews, who have claimed to be "God's People," attend church, and profess belief in God's word. And yet, they aren't really born again. They just use God for gain in this world.
                  I can imagine that the thought of being rejected for so high a job is not pleasant. So the immediate human reaction is usually what you have written. But consider this. Even in the world today, when a certain job needs to be filled, there is a selection process. And if it is a job with implications to the state, health and reputation of the company, the boss will look very carefully at the character, qualifications and reputation of the applicant. So too the Lord. Before Pilate, Caesar's representative, He condemned the present world system of rule. The Greek for "world" there is "kosmos" meaning "the adornment" or "the orderly arrangement of things". That is, our Lord's Kingdom is NOT managed like today's system of rule. Do you really think that the Christians around you, who you perceive to be corrupt, liars and servers of self, are qualified to uphold the heavenly rule that MUST take place on earth in the Millennium? Why, king Saul, for the SINGLE DISOBEDIENCE in regard to Agag in 1st Samuel 15, the Lord says this in verse 23; "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king."

                  To the rest of your answer, I have carefully laid down the proofs that those who (1) were "workers of iniquity" (KJV), (2) the Lord "did not know" intimately, and (3) who must "depart" from Him, ARE CHRISTIANS. I'm sure you know some of these in your Assembly. Not only do I know many such Christians, but must constantly "watch" that I am not one of them. Even now I find myself in battle between my own will and OBEDIENCE to the Lord's will. Will I be found worthy to be made co-king with Jesus? I think at this point of time it still hangs in the balance. Paul was no different. A mere three years before his martyrdom he writes in Philippians 3:12-14;

                  12 "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, IF that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
                  13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
                  14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."


                  Here we find him STRIVING for "that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus". What are we apprehended for? "IMAGE AND DOMINION"! If rebirth was a guarantee for kingship, is Paul MAD to strive so much? Our salvation is not to escape hell and to walk through the Pearly Gates. It is that we may be conformed to the image of Christ (Rom.8:29), and that we gain the REWARD of the Lord's Kingdom on earth. So Paul, after his misgivings three years before his death, can now change his tune in 2nd Timothy 4:6-8, and with FULL ASSURANCE, say;

                  6 "For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
                  7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
                  8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."


                  The result of having fought a good fight, having finished his course, and having kept the faith is "A CROWN". A "crown" is for ruling as a king. AND THIS CROWN IS TO EARNED. It is not guaranteed.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: I never knew you - depart from Me are Christians (Matt.7:23)

                    Originally posted by kyCyd
                    Walls it is a serious matter for sure. I can tell you from personal experience...that most Christians don't know Jesus or His words...they study and quote Paul. I will say but Jesus said... they will come back with Paul and then usually quote this scripture to me:
                    2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
                    Please note that posts claiming Paul's writings as uninspired and not on par with the rest of the scripture are not allowed in Bible Chat.
                    Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: I never knew you - depart from Me are Christians (Matt.7:23)

                      Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                      If they are Christians, how do you deal with the part where Jesus said "... I never knew you..."? Once Jesus knows someone, His seed is in them and He is in them and He knows them and calls them by name. Or do you mean they are cultural Christians who have never been born again?
                      In regards to Matthew 7:21-23, I'll never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I read Matthew 7:22 and thought to myself, wow! These many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" Such is the mindset of someone who believes that salvation is by works.

                      Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

                      John 6:40 - For my Fathers will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

                      These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was stained with sin. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.

                      John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people were not true converts.
                      Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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                      • #12
                        Re: I never knew you - depart from Me are Christians (Matt.7:23)

                        Originally posted by mailmandan View Post
                        In regards to Matthew 7:21-23, I'll never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I read Matthew 7:22 and thought to myself, wow! These many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" Such is the mindset of someone who believes that salvation is by works.

                        Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

                        John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

                        These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was stained with sin. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.

                        John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people were not true converts.
                        One of the points in the scriptures from Mt 7 is concerning the work of casting out demons in "your name." Based on other verses, those without the Holy Spirit, but still using Jesus' name (Acts 19:14-16) cannot cast out demons. So, were these people (Mt 7) once at a time actually had cast out demons by the power of the Holy Spirit in using Christ's name, or were they not casting out demons, but are deceived into thinking they were
                        Slug1--out

                        ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

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                        • #13
                          Re: I never knew you - depart from Me are Christians (Matt.7:23)

                          Originally posted by Walls View Post
                          May I refer you to the second last paragraph of the OP. If you still have questions I am happy to answer them.
                          IMO, those you describe in that paragraph are not true believers. You call them Christians, but then say that Jesus hasn't known them intimately. Ones Jesus has known intimately, will be like Mary, and have Jesus inside of them. Eventually, in the fullness of time, Jesus will come out of them too.

                          So... why do you say they are Christians if Jesus hasn't intimately known them? Or are you saying they are cultural Christians with a mental assent of Christ but not a heart change?
                          Matt 9:13
                          13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                          NASU

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                          • #14
                            Re: I never knew you - depart from Me are Christians (Matt.7:23)

                            Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                            One of the points in the scriptures from Mt 7 is concerning the work of casting out demons in "your name." Based on other verses, those without the Holy Spirit, but still using Jesus' name (Acts 19:14-16) cannot cast out demons. So, were these people (Mt 7) once at a time actually had cast out demons by the power of the Holy Spirit in using Christ's name, or were they not casting out demons, but are deceived into thinking they were
                            There are false prophets who prophecy in the name of Jesus and even make false prophecies. I've seen of few of those on TBN. Also, Satan may grant the power to one of his agents to cast out demons from another of his agents in order to gain attention and loyalty from an audience for his own evil agenda. False teachers and false prophets have long demonstrated supernatural power granted by Satan, including the power to control the demonic realm. The enemy could easily use this deception to win an audience for his claims.

                            Also, in Matthew 10:1, we also see that Jesus gave His 12 disciples power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. This would include Judas Iscariot, yet Jesus referred to Judas Iscariot as an unclean devil who would betray Him! (John 6:71; 13:10-11). Apparently, Judas believed that Jesus' name has the power to cast out demons but did not truly believe in His name (John 1:12) and become a child of God, but instead was the son of perdition (John 17:12).

                            I personally used to know a woman who is a Mormon that "allegedly" cast a demon out of a teenage boy. She claims the demon came out of the boy, began to attack her, then stopped and with an eerie voice said, "oohhh, you're a child a God" then left. She then boasted about how that demon knew better than to mess with her! Of course, she was a devout Mormon and not a believer, yet the demon convinced her that she was through this experience. This made her all the more convinced that she was perfectly fine right where she was, lost in her Mormon faith. I once tried to share the gospel with her, but she was not interested at all and continued to trust in her works for salvation.
                            Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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                            • #15
                              Re: I never knew you - depart from Me are Christians (Matt.7:23)

                              KyCyd:

                              What words are more important? It even says this about the Holy Spirit:

                              John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

                              The Holy Spirit has a purpose.... it is for what Jesus said, no one else. Personally I see Christians when face to face with Jesus doing the same thing...quoting something other than what God or Jesus says.
                              John 16:

                              12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

                              13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

                              14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

                              15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


                              [said by Jesus shortly before He would go to the Cross]

                              I agree also with ewq1938 saying Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ.


                              Are we thinking only the things said by Him before, say, 32ad "count"/are legit?? Just remember that He said this ^



                              Keep in mind also that which Acts 3:21-26 says [speaking specifically to Israel, per context]:

                              21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
                              22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up [to a position of prominence, DURING His earthly ministry] unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
                              23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
                              24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
                              25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
                              26 Unto you first God, having raised up [to a position of prominence, DURING His earthly ministry] his Servant Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. [that is, during His earthly ministry, before the Cross (as Prophet; as Servant)]

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