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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    I really appreciate the time you put into that post. I don't actually contend much of it...though how we "see" certain scripture you cite is another thing. The one thing I would bring up is this...you have quoted the verse about the old covenant being done away with. I don't disagree, but it seems you lump the old covenant and the law together as one item, which "they" are not. It is two different word in English, Greek, or Hebrew, with two entirely different meanings. Like I wrote in the other thread a short time ago, Abraham kept BOTH the Torah AND the commandments...but he was not a part of the Sinai covenant. I am not picking on you Mark...I really like you. We see things differently but we are much alike in many ways. But to really understand the issues we are discussing, on both threads because they are indeed related, you have to learn to separate the covenant from the law.

    I am going to bed...today put some calouses on my fingers.

    Peace and blessings!
    Ken

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  • Brother Mark
    replied
    Originally posted by kenrank View Post
    The food laws have been followed (and sadly added to) by Judah since they were given. If they weren't about food my friend, why would the early Roman church pass a law to "not eat the food of the jews?" (punishable by ex-communication)
    Who knows why religious people do what they do...

    Paul uses a term he calls, "the law of sin." In context, his "law of sin" is the death and condemnation we inherited from Adam. So when he says we are dead to the law...is he saying we can make idols and bow to them, serve other gods, cheat on my wife....or is he saying we are dead to the curse of Adam's sin?

    Peace.
    Ken
    Some say that is what it means. But righteousness never came by the law. Now I am not to use my freedom to indulge the flesh. It seems to me that I am dead to the letter of the law and alive to the spirit of the law.

    To expound more... Duet. 8:2 tells us that God will lead us to the desert and make us hungry, so that he might feed us. Then he goes on to explain he is testing us and humbling us in order that we might learn "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God". A new Testament study of eating shows some interesting things. When Satan approached Jesus about food, Jesus spoke of spiritual food. When Jesus was speaking to the woman at the well, Jesus desciples spoke to him about food, and Jesus replied with a thought about spiritual food. After the miracle of feeding the thousands, Jesus spoke to beware of the leaven of the pharisees and again, the disciples though physical food but Jesus meant spiritual teachings. Another time, Jesus spoke of eating his flesh and drinking his blood, and many thought he was speaking of canibalism and were both appalled and fascinated. But when he said "The words I speak to you are spirit" they left him for then they understood he was speaking covenant and not about physical food.

    When I read the NT I see many warnings about my thought life and how I am not to eat these words (i.e. think on them) but instead I am to eat the words of God. I also see repeated references to believers being salt and having flavor indicating our words are to be such that others can eat them and find them flavorful and tasting of the grace of God.

    We can further see how this spiritual thing was revealed through types, shadows, parables, pictures, etc. in Hebrews. For the covenant had regulations. But the regulations pointed to a greater covenant.

    Heb 8:13-9:10

    13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

    9 Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary. 2 For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place. 3 And behind the second veil, there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies, 4 having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron's rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant. 5 And above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but of these things we cannot now speak in detail. 6 Now when these things have been thus prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle, performing the divine worship, 7 but into the second only the high priest enters, once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed, while the outer tabernacle is still standing, 9 which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, 10 since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.
    NASB

    We now look to the Spirit of the law and we learn how bad thinking can make us unclean. Just as Jesus taught in parables, i.e. word pictures, so God uses the OT to teach us in word pictures. But the new covenant is here and now we need to understand the spiritual basis behind the food laws and apply that to our lives.

    I give a deeper example... The food laws were about holiness. Peter even quoted the passage. Look at what God said about the food laws and holiness in the OT.

    Lev 11:41-45

    41 'Now every swarming thing that swarms on the earth is detestable, not to be eaten. 42 'Whatever crawls on its belly, and whatever walks on all fours, whatever has many feet, in respect to every swarming thing that swarms on the earth, you shall not eat them, for they are detestable. 43 'Do not render yourselves detestable through any of the swarming things that swarm; and you shall not make yourselves unclean with them so that you become unclean. 44 'For I am the Lord your God. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy; for I am holy. And you shall not make yourselves unclean with any of the swarming things that swarm on the earth. 45 'For I am the Lord, who brought you up from the land of Egypt, to be your God; thus you shall be holy for I am holy.'"
    NASB

    Now, often it is said that eating the unclean thing only made someone unclean. Yet, here God said it could make them detestable! Then he goes on to say "Be holy like I am holy".

    We see it repeated here again...

    Lev 20:25-26
    25 'You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26 'Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine.
    NASB

    So the food laws were meant to separate his people apart. They were about holiness.

    Now, we go to the new testament and we can see how Peter quoted these scriptures.

    1 Peter 1:13-17

    13 Therefore, gird your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, 15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16 because it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy."
    NASB

    We are to eat the word of God and "think on these things" and then our behavior becomes holy. Or as Jesus said, it is not what goes into a man that defiles him, or makes him unclean, or makes him detestable, but rather, it is what comes out of the heart of man. Like Peter said and Jesus said 'lusts' will keep us from being holy.

    In summary, in the OT we see that God tied the food laws to holiness. In the NT I can't find that tie in one place. Yet, I see holiness spoken of often in the NT. Then I began to see how we are commanded to eat words, to think on these things, to meditate in the word of God. These are things that will make help us think like God. And the more we think like God, the more we are holy as He is holy.

    Blessings,

    Mark

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by keck553 View Post
    I'm sorry, that's just not a biblically sound paraphrase. God doesn't trick people like that, or create an entire list of food that just happens to be designed by Him to be either garbage eaters or carnivores
    Good point. There are non-Torah keeping Christians all over the internet that are eating the "bible diet." Why...because clams and other shellfish eat poop...you are what you eat. Scaleless fish sit on the bottom, and again, eat poop. Pigs have that bacteria in them that though it can be killed in the cooking process, leaves it's waste behind for us to eat. While eating clean is a sign of obediance to a command, it is also healthier.

    Peace.
    Ken

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Of course Peter's vision was about men. God just happened to use food to show it. In other words, the food laws were never really about food but to use an example for things God desired to teach.
    The food laws have been followed (and sadly added to) by Judah since they were given. If they weren't about food my friend, why would the early Roman church pass a law to "not eat the food of the jews?" (punishable by ex-communication)


    Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
    I popped over there. Don't know how long I'll stay because I have looked at this issue for around 15 years. Paul never taught the law was dead, just that we were dead to the law.
    Paul uses a term he calls, "the law of sin." In context, his "law of sin" is the death and condemnation we inherited from Adam. So when he says we are dead to the law...is he saying we can make idols and bow to them, serve other gods, cheat on my wife....or is he saying we are dead to the curse of Adam's sin?

    Peace.
    Ken

    Leave a comment:


  • keck553
    replied
    Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
    In other words, the food laws were never really about food but to use an example for things God desired to teach.
    I'm sorry, that's just not a biblically sound paraphrase. God doesn't trick people like that, or create an entire list of food that just happens to be designed by Him to be either garbage eaters or carnivores just so He could teach Peter a lesson about eating with Goyim. The truth of the matter is God NEVER said it was unclean to eat with Goyim and God was using the vision to separate His unfallable Word from human teachings. Are you really that confident that humans know more about the short or long term effects of certain kinds of food than God? Is this a trust issue?

    Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
    I popped over there. Don't know how long I'll stay because I have looked at this issue for around 15 years. Paul never taught the law was dead, just that we were dead to the law.
    Since we are no longer slaves to sin, our relationship to Torah has changed. We now have the liberty to live by God's righteous standards in fullness withoug condemnation. Praise God.

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  • Brother Mark
    replied
    Originally posted by kenrank View Post
    That's am opinion you have that I would love to explore. Mark, many have told me throughout the years that Peter's vision was about food. It was about unclean man. While Paul's words are inspired, he references not himself, but the Word of God in 1 Tim 4. It says all foods that are clean are to be received...so then must Paul be saying the same thing since this is his reference.
    Of course Peter's vision was about men. God just happened to use food to show it. In other words, the food laws were never really about food but to use an example for things God desired to teach.

    Acts 15 really deals, if you read the whole chapter for context and flow...with whether or not circumcision brings about salvation, which of course, it doesn't. So the letter goes out to the gentiles dealing with the issues raised at that time, but doesn't say anything about the law being dead. Why not join me when you have time in the Paul" a discussion on the Law thread and we can share some thoughts. I really believe there is a misunderstanding about Paul....but I also think our knowledge is increasing and things are being made clear. MHO.

    Ken
    I popped over there. Don't know how long I'll stay because I have looked at this issue for around 15 years. Paul never taught the law was dead, just that we were dead to the law.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
    The OT was and is the word of God. But even then, Paul's words were also considered inspired as we see in his passages to the Corinthian church.

    And with the OT written, Acts 15 still didn't require the clean and unclean separation of food for Gentiles as did the OT.
    That's am opinion you have that I would love to explore. Mark, many have told me throughout the years that Peter's vision was about food. It was about unclean man. While Paul's words are inspired, he references not himself, but the Word of God in 1 Tim 4. It says all foods that are clean are to be received...so then must Paul be saying the same thing since this is his reference.

    Acts 15 really deals, if you read the whole chapter for context and flow...with whether or not circumcision brings about salvation, which of course, it doesn't. So the letter goes out to the gentiles dealing with the issues raised at that time, but doesn't say anything about the law being dead. Why not join me when you have time in the Paul" a discussion on the Law thread and we can share some thoughts. I really believe there is a misunderstanding about Paul....but I also think our knowledge is increasing and things are being made clear. MHO.

    Ken

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  • Brother Mark
    replied
    Originally posted by kenrank View Post
    BD...the point Paul was making in 1 Tim 4 was that the foods considered good and not to be refused and were sanctified by the Word of God were clean food. The "Word of God" being refered to here is the OT, the new was not complied yet. All foods that are "clean" are considered to be good in the OT, not the unclean.

    Peace.
    Ken
    The OT was and is the word of God. But even then, Paul's words were also considered inspired as we see in his passages to the Corinthian church.

    And with the OT written, Acts 15 still didn't require the clean and unclean separation of food for Gentiles as did the OT.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by theBelovedDisciple View Post
    Here is another verse found in the NT as Paul speaks to Timothy as he describes the false doctrine and commandments that will charazterize the last days...

    Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

    For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

    For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

    Jesus made it very clear that it was 'not' what into you that defiled you.. but what came out of your mouth.. for those issues proceed from heart.. for that which enters into you enter thru your mouth and into your stomach and is passed out as waste... this does not 'defile' you..

    God has created meat and the creatures that the meat is on... God says these creatures are 'good'...... Paul reaffirms that these are to be recieved with thanksgiving and are sanctified by the Word of God and prayer. Whether you eating your steak or hamburger a little on the rare side or well done.. is really a moot point...

    The Bible declares that in the last days you will find more of these man made doctrines or commandments by those in religion .. 'adding' more rules and regulations.. tying burdens on people like the Pharisees of old... instead of abiding in the Grace and Mercy and Faith of Jesus the Christ..

    Once again Jesus taught that its 'not what goes into you which defiles' you.. but what comes from you mouth.. for out of the mouth procedd the issues of the heart.. and from the heart come many different things... wicked or good...
    BD...the point Paul was making in 1 Tim 4 was that the foods considered good and not to be refused and were sanctified by the Word of God were clean food. The "Word of God" being refered to here is the OT, the new was not complied yet. All foods that are "clean" are considered to be good in the OT, not the unclean.

    Peace.
    Ken

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Studyin'2Show View Post
    Ken, did you state that backwards? The way I interpret it is that it is not sin, it merely makes one unclean until evening.
    Yes of course. The whole Mark 7 point I just contradicted eh??

    Thanks!!
    Ken

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  • Steve M
    replied
    Originally posted by Gregg View Post
    Crickets! I get Crickets! I actually was laughing out loud as I was typing the ( ). No one thought it was funny?
    Psst: this is a Christian board. You know better. You're not allowed to LAUGH.

    The elders will be swinging by your residence to have a discussion about surgically removing your sense of humor, too.

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  • diffangle
    replied
    Originally posted by theBelovedDisciple View Post
    Here is another verse found in the NT as Paul speaks to Timothy as he describes the false doctrine and commandments that will charazterize the last days...

    Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
    1Ti 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    Paul is obviously addressing something else going on here other than the Instructions of YHWH b/c His Word is not a "doctrine of devils".

    Leave a comment:


  • Gregg
    replied
    Originally posted by Gregg View Post
    All kidding aside, I have come to this conclusion as well. And since I agree with you...good post (ok, that last sentence I meant, but was tongue in cheek, I mean it was a good post, and I do agree with it, but I was also having a little fun at my own expense, sort of like I am doing now, as I cannot stop typing, ok I can stop typing but I don't want to, so I hope everybody finds the humor in this part of the post, except for the part where I wasn't kidding, then take that part seriously, if you know what I mean, so God Bless everyone).

    Crickets! I get Crickets! I actually was laughing out loud as I was typing the ( ). No one thought it was funny?

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  • Studyin'2Show
    replied
    Originally posted by kenrank View Post
    Even in the Torah BD, eating an unclean animal did not defile you, make you unclean. It was a sin.
    Ken, did you state that backwards? The way I interpret it is that it is not sin, it merely makes one unclean until evening.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by theBelovedDisciple View Post
    Jesus made it very clear that it was 'not' what into you that defiled you.. but what came out of your mouth.. for those issues proceed from heart.. for that which enters into you enter thru your mouth and into your stomach and is passed out as waste... this does not 'defile' you..
    Even in the Torah BD, eating an unclean animal did not defile you, make you unclean. It was a sin. There is a difference between being unclean and a sin. A woman during her cycle is unclean...but it is not a sin. So what Yahushua was saying in Mark 7 was that an unclean food will pass through you during the "elimination" process (the P word)...but what comes out of your mouth is from the heart, and if foul or evil...will make you defiled.

    Peace.
    Ken

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