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  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
    My beloved brother, PuP, those "who are called" refer to those who believe (Jew and Gentile), not exclusively Israel and Judah as you think. See below:

    Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
    Why do you keep backtracking to say that I don't think that Gentiles are included? Truly there are numerous scriptures that state that the called are made up of Jews AND Gentiles. I have stated numerous times that the Gentiles who are called make up the multitude of nations whose are descendants of Ephraim. Don't lose sight of the fact that the eternal inheritance belongs only to the called.

    Blessings
    The PuP

    Comment


    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

      Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
      The mediatorial ministry of Christ over the New Covenant is really very simple.

      *[[Heb 9:15]] KJV* And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, THEY WHICH ARE CALLED might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

      Very few would argue against atoning death of Christ for the sins of the whole world. If Trivalee and Co. can show that "they which are called" means the whole world, then they will have taken a huge leap for mankind. But, on the contrary, if they can't show them to be representing the whole world, the debate should be over, and concessions made.
      Matthew 22:9-14 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
      So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
      And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
      And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
      Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
      For many are called, but few are chosen.

      Comment


      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

        Originally posted by Noeb View Post
        Matthew 22:9-14 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
        So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
        And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
        And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
        Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
        For many are called, but few are chosen.
        Sometimes "called" is used in the sense of giving an invitation. But the ones that are of importance are when it is used as a descriptive pronoun. Here is one of the better examples:

        *[[Rom 8:29]] KJV* For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
        30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

        Bottom line? Those who are called those who are saved and glorified. Excluding the wicked.

        Blessings
        The PuP

        Comment


        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

          Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
          Few questions for the New Covenant is Now Crowd, Please provide references when and where applicable.


          1. Where is the Ark of the New Covenant?


          2. Is it possible to Break the New Covenant? If so How?


          3. What is the Penalty for Breaking the New Covenant?


          4. Why is the Nation of Israel Currently Excluded from the New Covenant?


          5. Do you believe that Jews today would agree that the New Covenant excludes any provision for the land?


          6. At any point do you believe Jeremiah 31:34 was fulfilled and How?
          1. Did Jeremiah in his prophecy say the New Covenant will have an Ark?
          2. The Mosaic (Old) Covenant that had blessings for adherence/obedience and curses for disobedience. But the New Covenant is about the forgiveness of sin and eternal life, hence it is called "a better testament". Therefore those who believe will not break it, that's what it means to be SAVED.
          3. Show me where Jeremiah said it can be broken?

          4. The nation of Israel is NOT excluded from the New Covenant. The NC is for those who believe and starting from the Apostles who were Jews to today's messianic Jews, every Israeli who accepts Jesus as Lord and Saviour is automatically in the New Covenant.

          5. There are TWO categories of Jews: those that believe and the unbelieving. (a) Those who believe recognise that the essence of the NC is to facilitate their salvation and eternal life which in turn, will enable them to partake from the Land promised to their Fathers. I don't need to remind you that Jews who miss the kingdom of God (through disobedience and sin) will not share of the land promise? (Luke 13:28).

          (b) Those who remain in unbelief have themselves out the benefits of the NC. God's covenant always requires belief and obedience to him. God will never give a covenant of life to anyone who rejects him.

          6. Jeremiah 31:31-34 was fulfilled when Jesus died on the cross.

          a. His blood replaced the blood of bulls which served to atone the sins of the people (Heb 9:12-13).
          b. At Pentecost, his Spirit began t indwell the hearts and minds of the faithful (Acts 2, John 14:16 + 26)

          And the second part of the Bible is called the New Testament for the obvious reason that it is now in effect!

          Comment


          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

            Originally posted by Noeb View Post
            The following didn't apply to the apostles? "Christ's gospel" "in them that are saved" " savour of his knowledge" "savour of life" "speak we in Christ"

            That they ministered what they had not lived and experienced and were living and experiencing is absurd. It plainly says "we all", not just you converts. It says "we have such hope" not just you converts. It says "we have this ministry, as we have received mercy". The plain language places the apostles as participants of the NC they ministered to others.
            OK. I humbly ask you to administer to me the New Covenant. You claim to possess the truth so I adjure you to share it with men. Lead with scripture that has plain language and show me;
            that I am a recipient of it
            1. when it came into force
            2. what are its conditions seeing it is a Contract
            3. what are God's Laws that are written on my heart, seeing as every reference but one in the whole Bible calls God's Law the Law of Moses
            4. why I must follow these Laws and not the leading of the Holy Spirit, since the Law will not pass till heaven and earth pass
            5. to be one of the House of Israel or the house of Judah whose fathers came out of Egypt
            6. why I can be Christian when God has concluded ALL Israel in unbelief until the fullness of the Gentiles
            7. why I am reckoned as Israel when I believe in Jesus Christ
            8. why, as a Christian, I need a Covenant promised to non Christians - Israel
            9. why, as a Christian, I need a Mediator when I partake of the Covenant of Promise by being Christ's (Gal.3:29)
            10. why the Lord will not partake of the Passover during the church age, but will when He sets up the Kingdom of God on earth in the Millennium
            11. why the Lord has given me a memorial in this age, the bread and cup, that is not in His Law
            12. why the Lord has taken away the Temple which would allow me to fulfill God's Law
            13. why Jeremiah 31 continues in verses 35-37 that He will blot me out if I don't keep the "ordinances" of His Law
            14. what are the "ordinances" of God's Law if they are not to be broken

            If you are not prepared to lead with scripture as plain as Jeremiah 31:31-33, I understand. Don't apply scriptures that are not plain. Save your typing fingers.

            Comment


            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

              Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
              Sometimes "called" is used in the sense of giving an invitation. But the ones that are of importance are when it is used as a descriptive pronoun. Here is one of the better examples:

              *[[Rom 8:29]] KJV* For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
              30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

              Bottom line? Those who are called those who are saved and glorified. Excluding the wicked.

              Blessings
              The PuP
              ain't buying it

              Comment


              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                Few questions for the New Covenant is Now Crowd, Please provide references when and where applicable.

                1. Where is the Ark of the New Covenant?

                2. Is it possible to Break the New Covenant? If so How?

                3. What is the Penalty for Breaking the New Covenant?

                4. Why is the Nation of Israel Currently Excluded from the New Covenant?

                5. Do you believe that Jews today would agree that the New Covenant excludes any provision for the land?

                6. At any point do you believe Jeremiah 31:34 was fulfilled and How?
                1. God no longer dwells in temples made of hands. He departed the ark before it disappeared BTW, and never returned. So maybe you should realize he wouldn't dwell in an ark any longer anyway.

                2. Yes. Follow the flesh - Rom 8. We just went over this.

                3. Death

                4. They're not.

                5. No. It was one of the promises to Abraham. The covenant God swore by himself and fulfilled in Christ.

                6. The Cross

                Comment


                • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                  Actually that was a different covenant.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                    Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                    Actually that was a different covenant.
                    No it wasn't. Shouldn't do this while I'm busy at work.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                      1. Did Jeremiah in his prophecy say the New Covenant will have an Ark?
                      Is that relevant? Do you believe the New Covenant has an ark? If yes then where is it?

                      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                      2. The Mosaic (Old) Covenant that had blessings for adherence/obedience and curses for disobedience. But the New Covenant is about the forgiveness of sin and eternal life, hence it is called "a better testament". Therefore those who believe will not break it, that's what it means to be SAVED.
                      You claim that they will not break it does that mean they cannot? Do you have any bible verses to back up this assertion.

                      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                      3. Show me where Jeremiah said it can be broken?
                      Please read Jermiah 31:35-37

                      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                      4. The nation of Israel is NOT excluded from the New Covenant. The NC is for those who believe and starting from the Apostles who were Jews to today's messianic Jews, every Israeli who accepts Jesus as Lord and Saviour is automatically in the New Covenant.
                      Jermiah 31:33-34 Clearly states
                      I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,”declares the Lord.“For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

                      Are you saying that the Nation of Israel is now currently God's people and that from the Least to the Greatest they *ALL* Know him? Very intersting doctrine indeed. Guess there is no need to preach them the gospel anymore

                      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                      5. There are TWO categories of Jews: those that believe and the unbelieving. (a) Those who believe recognise that the essence of the NC is to facilitate their salvation and eternal life which in turn, will enable them to partake from the Land promised to their Fathers. I don't need to remind you that Jews who miss the kingdom of God (through disobedience and sin) will not share of the land promise? (Luke 13:28).

                      (b) Those who remain in unbelief have themselves out the benefits of the NC. God's covenant always requires belief and obedience to him. God will never give a covenant of life to anyone who rejects him.
                      None of what you are describing sounds like a fullfillment of Jeremiah 31:31-34, The people of Judah (the Jews) don't seem to believe that a New Covenant was made with them, Nor do the ones who get saved need no teaching because the least to the greatest of them (Messianic Jews) know the Lord?

                      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                      6. Jeremiah 31:31-34 was fulfilled when Jesus died on the cross.

                      a. His blood replaced the blood of bulls which served to atone the sins of the people (Heb 9:12-13).
                      b. At Pentecost, his Spirit began t indwell the hearts and minds of the faithful (Acts 2, John 14:16 + 26)

                      And the second part of the Bible is called the New Testament for the obvious reason that it is now in effect!
                      So you believe the "Faithful" in Jermiah is what is meant when he says the House of Judah and the House of Israel, what he really meant to say was the faithful?

                      Comment


                      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                        Originally posted by Walls View Post
                        OK. I humbly ask you to administer to me the New Covenant. You claim to possess the truth so I adjure you to share it with men. Lead with scripture that has plain language and show me;
                        that I am a recipient of it
                        1. when it came into force
                        2. what are its conditions seeing it is a Contract
                        3. what are God's Laws that are written on my heart, seeing as every reference but one in the whole Bible calls God's Law the Law of Moses
                        4. why I must follow these Laws and not the leading of the Holy Spirit, since the Law will not pass till heaven and earth pass
                        5. to be one of the House of Israel or the house of Judah whose fathers came out of Egypt
                        6. why I can be Christian when God has concluded ALL Israel in unbelief until the fullness of the Gentiles
                        7. why I am reckoned as Israel when I believe in Jesus Christ
                        8. why, as a Christian, I need a Covenant promised to non Christians - Israel
                        9. why, as a Christian, I need a Mediator when I partake of the Covenant of Promise by being Christ's (Gal.3:29)
                        10. why the Lord will not partake of the Passover during the church age, but will when He sets up the Kingdom of God on earth in the Millennium
                        11. why the Lord has given me a memorial in this age, the bread and cup, that is not in His Law
                        12. why the Lord has taken away the Temple which would allow me to fulfill God's Law
                        13. why Jeremiah 31 continues in verses 35-37 that He will blot me out if I don't keep the "ordinances" of His Law
                        14. what are the "ordinances" of God's Law if they are not to be broken

                        If you are not prepared to lead with scripture as plain as Jeremiah 31:31-33, I understand. Don't apply scriptures that are not plain. Save your typing fingers.
                        You've been shown more than enough that meets your criteria of plain language, but your lists are in left field and the more plain language passages you are given the longer and out of the ball park your lists get. Nothing anyone says or shows you would make a difference. Your mind is made up.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                          Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                          Jermiah 31:33-34 Clearly states
                          I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,”
                          John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                            Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                            1. God no longer dwells in temples made of hands. He departed the ark before it disappeared BTW, and never returned. So maybe you should realize he wouldn't dwell in an ark any longer anyway.
                            Just curios what then are your thoughts on Revelation 11:19?

                            Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                            2. Yes. Follow the flesh - Rom 8. We just went over this.
                            So following the flesh is how you break the New Covenant this is interesting. Is there a point of no return, or does repenting allow me to get back into the New Covenant?

                            Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                            3. Death
                            So just like the old Covenant the New one also leads to death? Just to make sure i understand you correctly, if I break the New Covenant the Holy Spirit will leave me, is this an accurate represention of your beliefs?

                            Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                            4. They're not.
                            So Israel as a Nation (not individuals) is Currently under the New Covenant?

                            Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                            5. No. It was one of the promises to Abraham. The covenant God swore by himself and fulfilled in Christ.
                            The one you are referring to the land promise was not the one where God swore by himself See Genesis 15:18-21 and Genesis 22:17-18.

                            Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                            6. The Cross
                            You believe after the Cross this was fullfilled for the All the people of the House of Judah and Israel?

                            “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,”

                            Why did the people of Israel all then forget who the Lord is?

                            Comment


                            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                              Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                              John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
                              I'm missing the message you seem to be sending me by quoting this passage. Is this how you believe Jeremiah 31:34 was fulfilled?

                              Comment


                              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                                Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                                Just curios what then are your thoughts on Revelation 11:19?
                                Wasn't everything made here after what was in heaven?


                                Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                                So Israel as a Nation (not individuals) is Currently under the New Covenant?
                                You changed a statement of exclusion without support to a question of inclusion without fact.


                                Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                                The one you are referring to the land promise was not the one where God swore by himself See Genesis 15:18-21 and Genesis 22:17-18.
                                Read 15:7-17 and 22:17.

                                Comment

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