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  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Sorry for all the questions but I was reading my bible to reply to you guys and I came across another passage that to me seemed really troublesome for the New Covenant is now Crowd. Sorry if you guys have already addressed it.

    It concerns Romans 11:25-27

    I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

    “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.

    What Covenant is he Refering to In Verse 27? And do you also include the Gentiles in that covenant also?

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    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

      Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
      I'm missing the message you seem to be sending me by quoting this passage. Is this how you believe Jeremiah 31:34 was fulfilled?
      Yes. Isaiah also said it.

      Comment


      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

        Originally posted by Noeb View Post
        Wasn't everything made here after what was in heaven?
        That's what the bible states, I was just curious if you considered that to be the Ark of the New Covenant or not.


        Originally posted by Noeb View Post
        You changed a statement of exclusion without support to a question of inclusion without fact.
        It was a new question all together since your answer "They're not" for me was confusing. Do you mind answering if you believe Israel as a Nation (like in the Old Covenant) are under the New Covenant?


        Originally posted by Noeb View Post
        Read 15:7-17 and 22:17.
        I believe I am correct about which convenant God Swore by himself was not the one conerning the land. Still none this addresses the question about whether or not you believe the New Covenant contains any provision for the Land similar to the one that was agreed at Sinai

        Comment


        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

          Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
          Sorry for all the questions but I was reading my bible to reply to you guys and I came across another passage that to me seemed really troublesome for the New Covenant is now Crowd. Sorry if you guys have already addressed it.

          It concerns Romans 11:25-27

          I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

          “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.

          What Covenant is he Refering to In Verse 27? And do you also include the Gentiles in that covenant also?
          This is from Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

          Paul also mentions vv9-10 in Romans 9. Isaiah 45 is about Cyrus who (brought salvation) freed Israel and allowed them to return to their land. It's also about Christ who brought salvation. Read the whole chapter and many things should pop out at you vv8, 9-10, 13, 22-25. As to your continued question....I don't know why it has to be complete and final before you'll count it true. The process started 2000 years ago and will be complete someday. Is that so hard?

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          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

            Originally posted by Noeb View Post
            This is from Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

            Paul also mentions vv9-10 in Romans 9. Isaiah 45 is about Cyrus who (brought salvation) freed Israel and allowed them to return to their land. It's also about Christ who brought salvation. Read the whole chapter and many things should pop out at you vv8, 9-10, 13, 22-25. As to your continued question....I don't know why it has to be complete and final before you'll count it true. The process started 2000 years ago and will be complete someday. Is that so hard?
            Sorry i'm having a really hard time understnading the bolded portion of your reply. None of this seems diffuclt at all besides your reply.

            Comment


            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

              Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
              That's what the bible states, I was just curious if you considered that to be the Ark of the New Covenant or not.
              I'd have to say what they text does, that it is his ark - that existed before man ever made one.


              Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
              It was a new question all together since your answer "They're not" for me was confusing. Do you mind answering if you believe Israel as a Nation (like in the Old Covenant) are under the New Covenant?
              You have to place yourself "under" it so obviously no.


              Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
              I believe I am correct about which convenant God Swore by himself was not the one conerning the land. Still none this addresses the question about whether or not you believe the New Covenant contains any provision for the Land similar to the one that was agreed at Sinai
              It clearly states the land, right there. Abraham asks how he can know he will inherit the land and God said prepare the sacrifice where God swore by himself. How then could you be correct?

              The NC is the fulfillment of the promises to Abraham.

              Comment


              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                Sorry i'm having a really hard time understnading the bolded portion of your reply. None of this seems diffuclt at all besides your reply.
                You say all Israel is not saved so no NC, but God started saving Israel 2000 years ago. How could he start doing that without the NC?

                Comment


                • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                  Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                  This is from Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

                  Paul also mentions vv9-10 in Romans 9. Isaiah 45 is about Cyrus who (brought salvation) freed Israel and allowed them to return to their land. It's also about Christ who brought salvation. Read the whole chapter and many things should pop out at you vv8, 9-10, 13, 22-25. As to your continued question....I don't know why it has to be complete and final before you'll count it true. The process started 2000 years ago and will be complete someday. Is that so hard?
                  Correction: v17 and
                  25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                    Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                    You say all Israel is not saved so no NC, but God started saving Israel 2000 years ago. How could he start doing that without the NC?
                    And what do you do with a chapter like Isaiah 45 that says all Israel will be save, is about Christ, and Paul quotes several times from several different verses? How do you separate Israel being saved from these verse quoted throughout the NT and say 'no NC yet'?

                    Comment


                    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                      Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                      You say all Israel is not saved so no NC, but God started saving Israel 2000 years ago. How could he start doing that without the NC?
                      Thats not my argument based on that passage, my argument is that if the NC is Israel being saved, then clearly the gentiles are excluded here. Second is that Paul clearly puts the making of the Covenant future not as a passive thing happening across 2000 years. I'll bold the portions i'm talking about

                      And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

                      “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; 27“and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

                      All of those bolded portions put these events Future not as present or past. https://biblehub.com/text/romans/11-26.htm

                      Check the tenses.

                      Second, this passage clearly says the Covenant is with Israel and excludes the Gentiles as it comes only after they have all come in.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                        Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                        You say all Israel is not saved so no NC, but God started saving Israel 2000 years ago. How could he start doing that without the NC?
                        Sorry I got confused about what passage we where talking about, to answer this question, I don't believe God saving individual members of the house of Israel requires the New Covenant they just like us can be redeemed by faith and the blood of Christ, however for the whole nation to be saved they all need to be freed from the Old Covenant.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                          Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                          Thats not my argument based on that passage, my argument is that if the NC is Israel being saved, then clearly the gentiles are excluded here.
                          Are they? Or or they just not mentioned because it was a mystery? The OT made it clear gentiles would be blessed but it did not make it clear they would be full participants. I don't know why some of you are having a hard time with that. Why would these passages include the Gentiles when the NT makes it clear it was a mystery? Therefore, the fact gentiles are not mentioned is not exclusion. Make sense?


                          Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                          Second is that Paul clearly puts the making of the Covenant future not as a passive thing happening across 2000 years. I'll bold the portions i'm talking about

                          And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

                          “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; 27“and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

                          All of those bolded portions put these events Future not as present or past. https://biblehub.com/text/romans/11-26.htm

                          Check the tenses.

                          Second, this passage clearly says the Covenant is with Israel and excludes the Gentiles as it comes only after they have all come in.
                          Over time is the clear and obvious meaning because if there is a remnant, the hardening is partial, he has not cast away Israel, and Israeli's were believing then clearly it's over time.

                          v27's And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins.”
                          is pointing forward to when Messiah comes, which already happened and so vv1-5 are included in v27

                          vv1-5So I ask, God has not rejected his people, has he? Absolutely not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew! Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars; I alone am left and they are seeking my life!” 4 But what was the divine response to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand people who have not bent the knee to Baal.” 5 So in the same way at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace

                          Comment


                          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                            Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                            Sorry I got confused about what passage we where talking about, to answer this question, I don't believe God saving individual members of the house of Israel requires the New Covenant they just like us can be redeemed by faith and the blood of Christ, however for the whole nation to be saved they all need to be freed from the Old Covenant.
                            His blood for the remission of sin is the new covenant.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                              Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                              Are they? Or or they just not mentioned because it was a mystery? The OT made it clear gentiles would be blessed but it did not make it clear they would be full participants. I don't know why some of you are having a hard time with that. Why would these passages include the Gentiles when the NT makes it clear it was a mystery? Therefore, the fact gentiles are not mentioned is not exclusion. Make sense?

                              Over time is the clear and obvious meaning because if there is a remnant, the hardening is partial, he has not cast away Israel, and Israeli's were believing then clearly it's over time.

                              v27's And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins.”
                              is pointing forward to when Messiah comes, which already happened and so vv1-5 are included in v27

                              vv1-5So I ask, God has not rejected his people, has he? Absolutely not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew! Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars; I alone am left and they are seeking my life!” 4 But what was the divine response to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand people who have not bent the knee to Baal.” 5 So in the same way at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace
                              I mean at this point we Seem to just be quoting the Words of Paul but not agreeing seeing eye to eye on what the text is saying, lets add the end of this discourse on the Israelites from this passage. I starting to understand some of what you're saying, at least I believe I am. For me when I examine this passage it shows to me that the Remnant is blessed but by grace same as us Gentiles but still this only produces a remant.

                              Paul as he finishes up this Discourse with

                              "Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, [B]how much more will their full inclusion mean!

                              For me the New Covenant is that Full Inclusion, everyone one gets to be a part of it not just "The Remnant" clearly only a "Remnant" came out of the Old Covenant. I don't believe any will fail in the New Covenant since God promises he will "put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people."

                              Therefore i believe Israel(The people) and the Land(Israel) promised in Genisis 15:7-17

                              Would you agree with these either of these staments?

                              1.Only a Remnant came out of the Old Covenant.

                              2.Only a Remnant will come out of the new Covenant.

                              For me i don't believe the second statement is true, I believe the New Covenant involves the Full inclusion of Israel, and all the land promises declared in chapter Jeremiah 31 and the Rest mentioned in all the Old Testament. That to me would be what I imagine the New Covenant looks like.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                                Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                                I mean at this point we Seem to just be quoting the Words of Paul but not agreeing seeing eye to eye on what the text is saying, lets add the end of this discourse on the Israelites from this passage. I starting to understand some of what you're saying, at least I believe I am. For me when I examine this passage it shows to me that the Remnant is blessed but by grace same as us Gentiles but still this only produces a remant.

                                Paul as he finishes up this Discourse with

                                "Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, [B]how much more will their full inclusion mean!

                                For me the New Covenant is that Full Inclusion, everyone one gets to be a part of it not just "The Remnant" clearly only a "Remnant" came out of the Old Covenant. I don't believe any will fail in the New Covenant since God promises he will "put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people."

                                Therefore i believe Israel(The people) and the Land(Israel) promised in Genisis 15:7-17

                                Would you agree with these either of these staments?

                                1.Only a Remnant came out of the Old Covenant.

                                2.Only a Remnant will come out of the new Covenant.

                                For me i don't believe the second statement is true, I believe the New Covenant involves the Full inclusion of Israel, and all the land promises declared in chapter Jeremiah 31 and the Rest mentioned in all the Old Testament. That to me would be what I imagine the New Covenant looks like.
                                I get what you are saying but I don't know why you think Israel believing precedes the NC. The NC involves their fullness, it's not excluded until it occurs. With the remnant/partial blinding and all/fullness contrast, it seems clear Paul believed Israel as a whole would believe someday. So he magnified his office to the gentiles to win Jews through provocation who would then do the same, working towards that goal. Verses 26-27 is an OT quote that points to the current remnant under the NC that God is using to show mercy to gentiles. That mercy received provokes them to jealously and saves some. God concluded both Jew and Gentile in unbelief that he may have mercy on both Jew and Gentile through the NC.

                                Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                                I mean at this point we Seem to just be quoting the Words of Paul but not agreeing seeing eye to eye on what the text is saying, lets add the end of this discourse on the Israelites from this passage. I starting to understand some of what you're saying, at least I believe I am. For me when I examine this passage it shows to me that the Remnant is blessed but by grace same as us Gentiles but still this only produces a remant.

                                Paul as he finishes up this Discourse with

                                "Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, [B]how much more will their full inclusion mean!

                                For me the New Covenant is that Full Inclusion, everyone one gets to be a part of it not just "The Remnant" clearly only a "Remnant" came out of the Old Covenant. I don't believe any will fail in the New Covenant since God promises he will "put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people."

                                Therefore i believe Israel(The people) and the Land(Israel) promised in Genisis 15:7-17

                                Would you agree with these either of these staments?

                                1.Only a Remnant came out of the Old Covenant.

                                2.Only a Remnant will come out of the new Covenant.

                                For me i don't believe the second statement is true, I believe the New Covenant involves the Full inclusion of Israel, and all the land promises declared in chapter Jeremiah 31 and the Rest mentioned in all the Old Testament. That to me would be what I imagine the New Covenant looks like.
                                I get what you are saying but I don't know why you think Israel believing precedes the NC. The NC involves their fullness, it's not excluded until it occurs. With the remnant/partial blinding and all/fullness contrast, it seems clear Paul believed Israel as a whole would believe someday. So he magnified his office to the gentiles to win Jews through provocation who would then do the same, working towards that goal. Verses 26-27 is an OT quote that points to the current remnant under the NC that God is using to show mercy to gentiles. That mercy received provokes them to jealously and saves some. God concluded both Jew and Gentile in unbelief that he may have mercy on both Jew and Gentile through the NC.

                                Comment

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