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  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
    So, you agree that eternal inheritance is NOT referring to salvation?

    Blessings
    The PuP
    Unless explicitly stated to the contrary (when context says it's about land), otherwise 'eternal inheritance' is invariably the promised Eternal Life/Salvation. I'm really concerned about your understanding of scripture. How in God's name can you read the passages I quoted (Rom 8:29-30) and deduce that eternal inheritance is not referring to salvation?

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    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

      Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
      Why do you keep backtracking to say that I don't think that Gentiles are included? Truly there are numerous scriptures that state that the called are made up of Jews AND Gentiles. I have stated numerous times that the Gentiles who are called make up the multitude of nations whose are descendants of Ephraim. Don't lose sight of the fact that the eternal inheritance belongs only to the called.

      Blessings
      The PuP
      Backtracking...in what sense? It was you that claimed that the "called"denotes only Israel. So I used Rom 8:29-30 to debunk that. If you deny it, I'll dig it up your statement...

      Comment


      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

        Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
        Is that relevant? Do you believe the New Covenant has an ark? If yes then where is it?
        Why insist I answer a question I consider infantile while asking if mine (Did Jeremiah in his prophecy say the New Covenant will have an Ark?) is relevant?

        Please read Jermiah 31:35-37
        If the best you can do is one-liners, then I can safely assume you really have zero exegeses to put forward. I have taken time to post some really detailed arguments with scripture to explain my position. In contrast, what you have presented repeatedly are irrelevant one-line questions. The more I think about it, the more it looks like you're having a laugh at my expense

        Jermiah 31:33-34 Clearly states
        What's your point?

        Jermiah 31:33-34 Clearly states I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,”declares the Lord.“For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

        Are you saying that the Nation of Israel is now currently God's people and that from the Least to the Greatest they *ALL* Know him? Very intersting doctrine indeed. Guess there is no need to preach them the gospel anymore
        The indwelling Spirit of Christ in the lives of the faithful is today revealing the knowledge of God to believers, from the least to the greatest (John 14:16 + 26). Until you get round to the fact that the partakers of the NC are ALL that are in Christ, you'll never get it.

        None of what you are describing sounds like a fullfillment of Jeremiah 31:31-34, The people of Judah (the Jews) don't seem to believe that a New Covenant was made with them, Nor do the ones who get saved need no teaching because the least to the greatest of them (Messianic Jews) know the Lord?
        If you say so.

        So you believe the "Faithful" in Jermiah is what is meant when he says the House of Judah and the House of Israel, what he really meant to say was the faithful?
        Looks like you need to start from the rudiments of scripture and work your way up to enable you to properly understand the Bible.

        Comment


        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          Why insist I answer a question I consider infantile while asking if mine (Did Jeremiah in his prophecy say the New Covenant will have an Ark?) is relevant?
          You consider the topic of the Ark of the Covenant to be infantile?



          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          If the best you can do is one-liners, then I can safely assume you really have zero exegeses to put forward. I have taken time to post some really detailed arguments with scripture to explain my position. In contrast, what you have presented repeatedly are irrelevant one-line questions. The more I think about it, the more it looks like you're having a laugh at my expense
          Not sure what you mean, here those passages clearly outline what will happen if the New Covenant fails, pretty sure that's exactly what you asked for.



          [QUOTE=Trivalee;3484759]What's your point?[quote] That this isn't a reality...



          [QUOTE=Trivalee;3484759]The indwelling Spirit of Christ in the lives of the faithful is today revealing the knowledge of God to believers, from the least to the greatest (John 14:16 + 26). Until you get round to the fact that the partakers of the NC are ALL that are in Christ, you'll never get it. [quote] Sure, until i agree with you i will never get it, Great argument here.



          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          If you say so.


          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          Looks like you need to start from the rudiments of scripture and work your way up to enable you to properly understand the Bible.
          Do you understand that this is just a plain insult? You're just attacking me personally because i don't agree with you, very constructive.

          Comment


          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

            Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
            Sorry for all the questions but I was reading my bible to reply to you guys and I came across another passage that to me seemed really troublesome for the New Covenant is now Crowd. Sorry if you guys have already addressed it.

            It concerns Romans 11:25-27

            I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

            “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.

            What Covenant is he Refering to In Verse 27? And do you also include the Gentiles in that covenant also?
            When Elijah complained to God that Israel has killed his prophets and was trying to kill him (1 Kings 19:18) God told that him that he has reserved for himself, 7000 men that have not bowed to Baal. In Paul's exegesis to explain the present fate of Israel, rephrased (1 Kings 19:18) and typically gave more insight by explaining that those God has reserved (the elect) will be saved by grace alone, not by their works.

            Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

            3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
            4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
            5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
            6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
            7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.


            I take it the above are easily understood, so I'll just explain a couple of verses.

            1. In v-6, Paul explains that the "elect" are saved by grace i.e. by faith in Jesus Christ, not by observing the Law.
            2. In v-7 Pauls says that Israel has not obtained what she's looking for, why? We find the answer in the preceding chapter.

            Rom 10:1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

            2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
            3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
            4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.


            The answer is in v-3. By rejecting Christ in favour of seeking salvation through "works" they continue to stumble. But in contrast, the elect, starting with the Apostles are finding their way to Christ to receive his salvation.

            Now, let's fast forward to your question regarding v-27. God has promised David (Israel + Judah) that his seed and throne shall be established forever (2 Samuel 7:16).

            a. With regards to David's throne, Jesus, a descendant of David, fulfilled this prophecy.
            b. Per David's seed being saved, Zechariah says:

            Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

            Notice that it says the house of David (Israel+Judah). God says he will pour the spirit of grace and supplication upon them. And what does this mean? It will mellow their hearts of stone, remove the blindness from their eyes that has inhibited them from seeing the TRUTH that Christ is their Messiah! And when this happens, they will mourn in bitterness and regret, for rejecting their Messiah. It will be an error to assume that Rom 11:27 is speaking about the NC because it's not. At any rate, what has been irrefutably established is that no Jew will be saved without accepting Jesus Christ. And those who have accepted him throughout the ages - from the Apostles to today's messianic Jews are in the New Covenant.

            See how I have painstakingly answered your questions? Hopefully, you'll give me more than one-liners in your agreement or rebuttal

            Comment


            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
              Unless explicitly stated to the contrary (when context says it's about land), otherwise 'eternal inheritance' is invariably the promised Eternal Life/Salvation. I'm really concerned about your understanding of scripture. How in God's name can you read the passages I quoted (Rom 8:29-30) and deduce that eternal inheritance is not referring to salvation?
              You will not find me saying that the Gentiles are excluded from the new covenant. You will find me saying that the new covenant is only with the whole house of Israel AND that (via Romans 9) that the "called" Gentiles are the multitude of nations that are descendants of Ephraim. Maybe(?) I didn't say it quite that clearly, but I don't believe I said that Gentiles were/ are excluded.

              Blessings
              The PuP

              Comment


              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                It will be an error to assume that Rom 11:27 is speaking about the NC because it's not.
                Just to Clarify you believe the Covenant in Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. is speaking of a Different covenant?

                Do you believe this covenant mentioned in Rom 11:27 also includes the gentiles?

                Comment


                • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  At any rate, what has been irrefutably established is that no Jew will be saved without accepting Jesus Christ. And those who have accepted him throughout the ages - from the Apostles to today's messianic Jews are in the New Covenant.

                  See how I have painstakingly answered your questions? Hopefully, you'll give me more than one-liners in your agreement or rebuttal
                  I'm not really one for agreeing or rebuttal, I've learned from these boards that it's almost impossible to change someone's opinions or views no matter how well crafted the argument, for me i'm content to just ask questions that challenge people to clarify their view and add passages I believe would be difficult for them to see how they fit them into their view.

                  In light of that my question regarding your statement above is? Are you claiming that the New Covenant Excludes all those Jews and members of the House of Israel that came before Christ?

                  Comment


                  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                    The prophecy NEVER said that the New Covenant will have an Ark. In Ex 25:10-22 Moses was instructed to prepare the Ark of the Covenant as the earthly presentation of God's throne in heaven. The Ark was kept in the inner sanctum to the temple, called the holy of holies which the high priest went in to once a year, with animal blood for the atonement of sin.

                    In Hebrews 9:10 we are told that this practice remained until the reformation i.e introduction of the New Covenant.

                    Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. 7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: 8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

                    Notice that v-8 says that the "holiest" of all was not yet manifest while the 1st covenant was still in place?

                    11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

                    But when Christ came, he replaced the (1) the services of the Levitical Priests (2) He became our eternal High Priest (3) And as the representation of the *holiest*, there was no more requirement for an Ark!

                    Comment


                    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                      The prophecy NEVER said that the New Covenant will have an Ark. In Ex 25:10-22 Moses was instructed to prepare the Ark of the Covenant as the earthly presentation of God's throne in heaven. The Ark was kept in the inner sanctum to the temple, called the holy of holies which the high priest went in to once a year, with animal blood for the atonement of sin.

                      In Hebrews 9:10 we are told that this practice remained until the reformation i.e introduction of the New Covenant.

                      Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. 7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: 8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

                      Notice that v-8 says that the "holiest" of all was not yet manifest while the 1st covenant was still in place?

                      11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

                      But when Christ came, he replaced the (1) the services of the Levitical Priests (2) He became our eternal High Priest (3) And as the representation of the *holiest*, there was no more requirement for an Ark!
                      If there is no requirement for an ark Why is there an Ark?

                      Comment


                      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                        Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                        I mean at this point we Seem to just be quoting the Words of Paul but not agreeing seeing eye to eye on what the text is saying, lets add the end of this discourse on the Israelites from this passage. I starting to understand some of what you're saying, at least I believe I am. For me when I examine this passage it shows to me that the Remnant is blessed but by grace same as us Gentiles but still this only produces a remant.

                        Paul as he finishes up this Discourse with

                        "Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, [B]how much more will their full inclusion mean!

                        For me the New Covenant is that Full Inclusion, everyone one gets to be a part of it not just "The Remnant" clearly only a "Remnant" came out of the Old Covenant. I don't believe any will fail in the New Covenant since God promises he will "put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people."

                        Therefore i believe Israel(The people) and the Land(Israel) promised in Genisis 15:7-17

                        Would you agree with these either of these staments?

                        1.Only a Remnant came out of the Old Covenant.

                        2.Only a Remnant will come out of the new Covenant.

                        For me i don't believe the second statement is true, I believe the New Covenant involves the Full inclusion of Israel, and all the land promises declared in chapter Jeremiah 31 and the Rest mentioned in all the Old Testament. That to me would be what I imagine the New Covenant looks like.
                        If you are arguing that every Jew will be saved, then you are wrong. The scriptures repeatedly say that although Isreal is as the sand on the seashore for a number, yet a remnant shall be saved. So when Rom 11:26 says that all Israel shall be saved, does it mean that Isaiah's prophecy is voided, of course not!

                        Even in the end times, when God shows them mercy, many will still throw his grace back on his face! Therefore, ALL Israel that will be saved refers to those "elect" who will accept God's grace and supplication (Zech 12:10) offered to them and turn to Christ. Jesus cannot lie or contradict himself, there's no way a Jew who continues to reject him will be saved. If you understand this - then you will understand what all Israel will be saved means.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                          Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                          You will not find me saying that the Gentiles are excluded from the new covenant. You will find me saying that the new covenant is only with the whole house of Israel AND that (via Romans 9) that the "called" Gentiles are the multitude of nations that are descendants of Ephraim. Maybe(?) I didn't say it quite that clearly, but I don't believe I said that Gentiles were/ are excluded.

                          Blessings
                          The PuP
                          Thank you for clarifying. When one's position is not very clear, it leaves room for speculation and innuendo. My apologies for quoting you out of context.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                            Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                            Just to Clarify you believe the Covenant in Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. is speaking of a Different covenant?

                            Do you believe this covenant mentioned in Rom 11:27 also includes the gentiles?
                            1. When Paul made the statement, the new covenant was already in place.
                            2. Rom 11:27 is not a new covenant. Paul was referring to God's promise to forgive their sins if they repent.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              If you are arguing that every Jew will be saved, then you are wrong. The scriptures repeatedly say that although Isreal is as the sand on the seashore for a number, yet a remnant shall be saved. So when Rom 11:26 says that all Israel shall be saved, does it mean that Isaiah's prophecy is voided, of course not!


                              Even in the end times, when God shows them mercy, many will still throw his grace back on his face! Therefore, ALL Israel that will be saved refers to those "elect" who will accept God's grace and supplication (Zech 12:10) offered to them and turn to Christ. Jesus cannot lie or contradict himself, there's no way a Jew who continues to reject him will be saved. If you understand this - then you will understand what all Israel will be saved means.
                              You misunderstand what I'm saying but i believe Noeb got it so no worries. If you do want to understand what i'm saying Consider what Sucess under the Old Covenant would have looked like. Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; 6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel.”


                              Clearly under the Old Covenant Israel failed at this and thus only a Remnant Obtained salvation.


                              God promises under the New Covenant that Israel will Not Fail, therefore since currently Israel, as a nation is not doing so my contention, is that the New Covenant is not in Effect.

                              That's why i stated it as two different Statements the first one states that:

                              1. Under the Old Covenant, only a Remnant obtained Salvation.

                              2. Under the New Covenant, only a remnant Obtains Salvation.

                              If I were to rewrite the second statement into one I agree with it would say.

                              3. Under the New Covenant, All of Israel will Live and prosper and all the other things promised to them, the land, and the City in Jeremiah 31, will be a reality.

                              Also i do not agree with your definition of how All Israel will be saved for the record, i will elaborate as to why if you wish.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                                Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                                I'm not really one for agreeing or rebuttal, I've learned from these boards that it's almost impossible to change someone's opinions or views no matter how well crafted the argument, for me i'm content to just ask questions that challenge people to clarify their view and add passages I believe would be difficult for them to see how they fit them into their view.

                                In light of that my question regarding your statement above is? Are you claiming that the New Covenant Excludes all those Jews and members of the House of Israel that came before Christ?
                                The New Covenant was only ratified with the death of Jesus Christ so those [Jews} who came before Christ were under the Old Covenant.

                                Comment

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