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  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    If there is no requirement for an ark Why is there an Ark?
    I don't follow? Are you saying my post #175 didn't provide a satisfactory reason why an Ark was not necessary for the New Covenant?

    Did Jeremiah say there will be an Ark anyway?

    Comment


    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

      Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
      You misunderstand what I'm saying but i believe Noeb got it so no worries. If you do want to understand what i'm saying Consider what Sucess under the Old Covenant would have looked like. Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; 6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel.”


      Clearly under the Old Covenant Israel failed at this and thus only a Remnant Obtained salvation.


      God promises under the New Covenant that Israel will Not Fail, therefore since currently Israel, as a nation is not doing so my contention, is that the New Covenant is not in Effect.

      That's why i stated it as two different Statements the first one states that:

      1. Under the Old Covenant, only a Remnant obtained Salvation.

      2. Under the New Covenant, only a remnant Obtains Salvation.

      If I were to rewrite the second statement into one I agree with it would say.

      3. Under the New Covenant, All of Israel will Live and prosper and all the other things promised to them, the land, and the City in Jeremiah 31, will be a reality.

      Also i do not agree with your definition of how All Israel will be saved for the record, i will elaborate as to why if you wish.
      Please elaborate. I welcome every input.

      Comment


      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
        I don't follow? Are you saying my post #175 didn't provide a satisfactory reason why an Ark was not necessary for the New Covenant?

        Did Jeremiah say there will be an Ark anyway?
        I'm not hiding the passage, i'm not sure if you're aware of it but I gave it to Noeb when he answered the same questions as you did, Revelation 11:19a And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament,
        Unless you believe this is reffering to the Ark of the old Covenant then Clearly we do have an Ark in Heaven, I guess my question for you is what covenant do you believe this Ark is for?

        Comment


        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          The New Covenant was only ratified with the death of Jesus Christ so those [Jews} who came before Christ were under the Old Covenant.
          I'm sure you would agree that all the Jews even ones today that do not accept Christ are under the Old Covenant? If we do have agreement on that point then it stands to reason that we might also agree that The Old Covenant only Produces a Remnant. To rephrase it only a remnant by grace (Romans 11:5-6) comes out of the Old Covenant unto Salvation. To me this means they come under the blood, this to me does not mean they get enter into the New Covenant and Immediatly God's Laws are Written in their mind and on their Hearts. I also believe that if you where to speak to a Messiancic Jew they would agree that they're not currently in the New Covenant. They Will be, but not yet.

          See Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

          My Argument only works if we Agree that

          1. All Isrealites from Sianai to today where under the Old Covenant.
          2. That none of them even those who recieved Christ have yet to Recieve this "Eternal Inheritance".

          The clearest proof that this is not currently a Reality would be Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

          Unless you believe he already Appeared the second time, everyone who came out of the First Covenant is still waiting to Recieve the Eternal Inheritance.

          I'm going to Add some more passages to Drive home my point.

          Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

          Hebrews 11:39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

          Comment


          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

            Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
            I'm sure you would agree that all the Jews even ones today that do not accept Christ are under the Old Covenant?
            Oh I don't know, Israel broke it, God departed, the sacrificial system abandoned....what's the point? Is it ok to keep part of the law when you could be doing all of it? Or can you? Oh, that's right God departed so you can't.

            Comment


            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

              Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
              I'm not hiding the passage, i'm not sure if you're aware of it but I gave it to Noeb when he answered the same questions as you did, Revelation 11:19a And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament,
              Unless you believe this is reffering to the Ark of the old Covenant then Clearly we do have an Ark in Heaven, I guess my question for you is what covenant do you believe this Ark is for?
              I don't believe the Ark in heaven has anything to do with the New Covenant.

              Comment


              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                If there is no requirement for an ark Why is there an Ark?
                I've challenged you several times to show me where Jeremiah 31:31-34 mentioned an Ark in the prophecy. Until you show it to me in the text, I have no need to discuss the 'presence' of an Ark in the New Covenant.

                Comment


                • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                  Who do you think is the antitype of the ark? If He is in heaven, why aren't your focus on Him and not on the type?

                  Comment


                  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                    I've challenged you several times to show me where Jeremiah 31:31-34 mentioned an Ark in the prophecy. Until you show it to me in the text, I have no need to discuss the 'presence' of an Ark in the New Covenant.
                    I aleady said it previously asking people to show you stuff in a specific text that you know is not there is not a "Challenge" or a even question, and using it as a basis to stop discussion just makes it a blatent form of Deflection. It's much easier just to state, I see no mention of a Ark in Jermiah 31:31-34. Also You don't have to discuss the Ark at all if you don't wish to. My question orginially didn't pertain specifically to Jeremiah 31:31-34 and you making it a precondition for or discussion on this topic overall baffles me.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                      Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                      Who do you think is the antitype of the ark? If He is in heaven, why aren't your focus on Him and not on the type?
                      No idea what you mean here, I do not believe a person is the antitype of the Ark. So i don't know who you think I should be focusing on.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                        Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                        I'm sure you would agree that all the Jews even ones today that do not accept Christ are under the Old Covenant? If we do have agreement on that point then it stands to reason that we might also agree that The Old Covenant only Produces a Remnant. To rephrase it only a remnant by grace (Romans 11:5-6) comes out of the Old Covenant unto Salvation. To me this means they come under the blood, this to me does not mean they get enter into the New Covenant and Immediatly God's Laws are Written in their mind and on their Hearts. I also believe that if you where to speak to a Messiancic Jew they would agree that they're not currently in the New Covenant. They Will be, but not yet.

                        See Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

                        My Argument only works if we Agree that

                        1. All Isrealites from Sianai to today where under the Old Covenant.
                        2. That none of them even those who recieved Christ have yet to Recieve this "Eternal Inheritance".

                        The clearest proof that this is not currently a Reality would be Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

                        Unless you believe he already Appeared the second time, everyone who came out of the First Covenant is still waiting to Recieve the Eternal Inheritance.

                        I'm going to Add some more passages to Drive home my point.

                        Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

                        Hebrews 11:39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.
                        1. The Jews who reject Christ and seek eternal life through work (Rom 10:1-4) have by choice, placed themselves under the old covenant that is now obsolete. Let me clarify, the Old Covenant is no more in place!

                        2. There is no such thing as the OT producing a remnant because ultimately, the remnant is them that are saved for eternal life. It includes Jews from the Old and New Testaments. In the NT Paul described them as those saved by grace and not because of their personal efforts "work".

                        3. Every Christian, Jew or Gentile is under the New Covenant. So your assertion that the Messianic Jews are not the NC is incorrect.

                        4. The OC has long been replaced by the New Covenant and Israel, starting with the Apostles, are now under the NC.
                        5. Nobody (Jew or Gentile) has yet received the "eternal inheritance" which will be redeemed after the resurrection/rapture.
                        6. What you are overlooking is the fact that the *eternal inheritance* here denote eternal life, not land. Proof can be found in v-40 which you quoted: "God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us."

                        What stands out is the statement, that they [OT saints] will not be made perfect i.e. to receive eternal life, immortality, etc before US - NT saints.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                          Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                          Who do you think is the antitype of the ark? If He is in heaven, why aren't your focus on Him and not on the type?
                          Thank you for articulating it better than I could. I have pointed time and again to our brother that Moses was instructed to construct the Ark which served as a representation of God's heavenly sanctuary, that's why it was kept in the holy of holies. But when Jesus came, being an embodiment of the "holiest", there was, therefore, no need for an earthly Ark.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                            Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                            I aleady said it previously asking people to show you stuff in a specific text that you know is not there is not a "Challenge" or a even question, and using it as a basis to stop discussion just makes it a blatent form of Deflection. It's much easier just to state, I see no mention of a Ark in Jermiah 31:31-34. Also You don't have to discuss the Ark at all if you don't wish to. My question orginially didn't pertain specifically to Jeremiah 31:31-34 and you making it a precondition for or discussion on this topic overall baffles me.
                            1. God made several covenants with Israel and not every one of them had an Ark.
                            2. I have told you several times that it is not mentioned in Jer 31:31 which spoke about the New Covenant.
                            3. It is therefore exasperating that you keep bringing it up since it is irrelevant to the NC.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              1. The Jews who reject Christ and seek eternal life through work (Rom 10:1-4) have by choice, placed themselves under the old covenant that is now obsolete. Let me clarify, the Old Covenant is no more in place!

                              2. There is no such thing as the OT producing a remnant because ultimately, the remnant is them that are saved for eternal life. It includes Jews from the Old and New Testaments. In the NT Paul described them as those saved by grace and not because of their personal efforts "work".

                              3. Every Christian, Jew or Gentile is under the New Covenant. So your assertion that the Messianic Jews are not the NC is incorrect.

                              4. The OC has long been replaced by the New Covenant and Israel, starting with the Apostles, are now under the NC.
                              5. Nobody (Jew or Gentile) has yet received the "eternal inheritance" which will be redeemed after the resurrection/rapture.
                              6. What you are overlooking is the fact that the *eternal inheritance* here denote eternal life, not land. Proof can be found in v-40 which you quoted: "God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us."

                              What stands out is the statement, that they [OT saints] will not be made perfect i.e. to receive eternal life, immortality, etc before US - NT saints.
                              I have 2 questions regarding your last answer to JLU.

                              1. If the "eternal inheritance" is the redemption of our bodies [NT saints] and them [OT saints], how can you say that the New Covenant is being implemented now, if nobody has yet to receive their reward?
                              2. If the reward of the NC is the redemption of both NT saints AND OT saints, how is that a better covenant?

                              [The identity of what constitutes the reward/ implementation(?) of the NC is a moot point, when you consider the timing of the eternal inheritance].

                              Blessings
                              The PuP

                              Comment


                              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                                1. The Jews who reject Christ and seek eternal life through work (Rom 10:1-4) have by choice, placed themselves under the old covenant that is now obsolete. Let me clarify, the Old Covenant is no more in place!

                                2. There is no such thing as the OT producing a remnant because ultimately, the remnant is them that are saved for eternal life. It includes Jews from the Old and New Testaments. In the NT Paul described them as those saved by grace and not because of their personal efforts "work".

                                3. Every Christian, Jew or Gentile is under the New Covenant. So your assertion that the Messianic Jews are not the NC is incorrect.

                                4. The OC has long been replaced by the New Covenant and Israel, starting with the Apostles, are now under the NC.
                                5. Nobody (Jew or Gentile) has yet received the "eternal inheritance" which will be redeemed after the resurrection/rapture.
                                6. What you are overlooking is the fact that the *eternal inheritance* here denote eternal life, not land. Proof can be found in v-40 which you quoted: "God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us."

                                What stands out is the statement, that they [OT saints] will not be made perfect i.e. to receive eternal life, immortality, etc before US - NT saints.
                                I don't know how you can deny that God promised Arbham the *Land* as an eternal inheritance. The fact that you're changing the Inheritnce to one of Eternal life seems nessarcy in your doctrine but overall has no biblical proof. However i Challenge you to submit one passage in the Old Testement that names Eternal life as the "Eternal Inheritnace". To help i will tell you that the only passages in the OT that mention Eternal life are Isiah 25-26 and Daniel 12. Go to them see if you find any mention of Eternal life as an "Eternal inheritance".

                                Even Verse 40 which you quoted is a continuation of the Land promises mentioned in Hebrews 11:8-10

                                Here is Genisis 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. 8And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.”

                                How you can read the Clear and unambiguous words of God, and still change the Everlasting inhertiance into sometime else to me shows that your view is not currently in line with the word of God. For that reason and many others I currently reject your position as valid.

                                I look forward to proof from the OT showing that Eternal life was promised to Abrham.

                                Comment

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