Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

[ewq1938]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

That's what I thought. To claim that the Kingdom of heaven is different from the Kingdom of God doesn't make sense.

Right and the difference here is I use biblical evidence not my personal opinion yet the opposite has been claimed.

[TheDivineWatermark]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

It was specific to the chief priest and elders (v23) Jesus was speaking to.

Agree. [need more characters so this will post... how's that ]

[Noeb]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

Adam and Eve were the first humans on earth, so when you say they "ruled" the earth, who did they rule?

Subdue is used. Also we are told they were given dominion over ALL the works of his hands. The most obvious is the serpent. Had they used their dominion properly they would not have disobeyed.

Neither did the Bible say they sat on a "throne" in the garden.

Scripture uses 'throne' descriptively. Many nations, principalities, powers, etc don't have actual thrones.


Another difference.....
-poor in spirit -koh, context Israel occupied by Rom, persecution, oppression. The koh ruled by Messiah would bring relief.
-poor -koG, context have your basic needs met.

[Noeb]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

Would it have been according to, foreordained before the foundation of the world, for his own to have received him?

Maybe I should have asked that another way.

Would it have been according to, foreordained before the foundation of the world, for Adam to not have eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Had Adam not eaten how would all coming after him have been brought forth and conceived, rather than being, Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,And in sin my mother conceived me Ps 51:5?

Why was redemption foreordained before the foundation of the world, before man, before man brought sin and death to all men?

Is those thoughts relative to the kingdom of the heavens and or the kingdom of God?

I realize I/we have corrupted the OP and I apologize. But to be honest I have no idea how a thread relative to this, could be started. Would not know what to ask.

God is not a calvinist. He doesn't control everything. God knew man would sin, and not because he looked in a crystal ball and saw the future. I'm not sure why you ask if it's relative to the kingdom of the heavens and or the kingdom of God? Could you explain?

[Noeb]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

Somehow I believe my previous post is relative to the devil and his sin which I believe to have preceded Adam and maybe even, Let there be light.

What kingdom did he lust for?

Dominion over earth. Yes, he had it before man.

[Noeb]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

OK, let's deal with the disciples' question to Jesus in Acts 1:6. When they asked Jesus whether he would at that time restore the "kingdom" to Israel, they weren't talking about the kingdom of heaven. Rather they were referring to Judaea without the oppressive Romans as overlords. Israel never claimed to be the kingdom of heaven. NEVER!

The kingdom under Solomon's rule is similar and the closest to the koh we have ever come. Jesus will take it to the next level and fulfill the promise to Abraham that his seed will inherit and rule the earth. How is it you don't think they had this in mind?

[Noeb]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

Right and the difference here is I use biblical evidence not my personal opinion yet the opposite has been claimed.

Again, posting a few similarities is not evidence there are no differences

[ewq1938]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

Again, posting a few similarities is not evidence there are no differences

It isn't mere similarities but the two terms being used interchangeably which means there are no differences and none have been provided. All I have read is unscriptural, personally created doctrines for each term. Scripturally speaking, there is no difference between the two. It's two ways of saying the same thing like car and automobile.

the kingdom of heaven=the kingdom of God

[Noeb]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

It isn't mere similarities but the two terms being used interchangeably which means there are no differences and none have been provided. All I have read is unscriptural, personally created doctrines for each term. Scripturally speaking, there is no difference between the two. It's two ways of saying the same thing like car and automobile.

You're defining them as being used interchangeably, but scripture does not. That there are differences means the two phrases cannot be used interchangeably. The two phrases are used to show similarities and differences so they are not interchangeable. The most obvious example is one you posted. Hard and impossible is not the same. God and heaven is not the same. And no, heaven was not used interchangeably in place of God. That's a lie. They didn't have any problem saying his name. Scripture and literature are filled with it. This is like you showing me 2 pictures, one black and one gray, or a perfect circle and an oval, and telling me they are the same. Absurd. Not only is this personal and created it denies language, logic, and reason. A car and automobile is the same thing. Hard and impossible, God and heaven are not.

[Noeb]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

Car and automobile are general terms for the same thing. An Accord EX and Accord LX are specific terms and are not the same thing. There are differences, though similar. EX and LX apply condition. An Accord and it's designer are very different things. Heaven and God are not general terms to describe the same thing, in fact they describe extremely different things like Accord and designer, and hard and impossible used to apply condition are not the same thing either.

[ewq1938]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

You're defining them as being used interchangeably, but scripture does not.

It does and the difference here is that I showed it using scripture but you provide only your opinion backed up by nothing.

That there are differences means the two phrases cannot be used interchangeably.

Yet another post that claims this but doesn't offer proof.

Hard and impossible, God and heaven are not.

These are strawmen arguments since no one is arguing those things are equal.. The issue is how the KOH and KOG is used and they are used identically that's because they are the same things.

Mat_19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.


Mar_10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Here literally the same statement yet Mathew recalls heaven used and Mark recalls God being used but they are clearly equal according to the writers. Any supposed difference between the terms is man made and isn't backed by scripture.

[Jesuslovesus]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

It does and the difference here is that I showed it using scripture but you provide only your opinion backed up by nothing.
Yet another post that claims this but doesn't offer proof. These are strawmen arguments since no one is arguing those things are equal.. The issue is how the KOH and KOG is used and they are used identically that's because they are the same things.

Mat_19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.


Mar_10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Here literally the same statement yet Mathew recalls heaven used and Mark recalls God being used but they are clearly equal according to the writers. Any supposed difference between the terms is man made and isn't backed by scripture.

The problem is that this is not proof that these terms are Interchangeable. If you want to speak facts lets speak facts.

Fact - Matthew is the Only Book in the Bible that uses the term Kingdom of Heaven.

Fact- No biblical author (excluding Matthew) Ever Uses the term Kingdom of Heaven to Refer to the Kingdom of God.

Fact- There is No evidence from Mark - Revelation that the term Kingdom of Heaven can be used to refer to the Kingdom of God.

Fact- No modern tranlation of the Book of Matthew Interchanges these two kingdoms they all render KoG passages as KoG and KoH passages as KoH.

So to recap there is No evidence or examples from Mark- Revelation of the term KoH being used interchangeably to refer to the KoG.

There is No modern tranlation of the book of Matthew that arbitrarily places these kingdoms into passages.

Those are facts.

[Noeb]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

I'm pretty sure there are translations that change heaven to God. If my memory serves me well, shame on them.

[Jesuslovesus]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

I'm pretty sure there are translations that change heaven to God. If my memory serves me well, shame on them.

I would be interested to see translations of Matthew that swap around the placements, of the KoG & Koh passages if you know/come across of any you should send if you get the chance.

[ewq1938]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

The problem is that this is not proof that these terms are Interchangeable.

Obviously I and other will disagree.

If you want to speak facts lets speak facts.

Fact - Matthew is the Only Book in the Bible that uses the term Kingdom of Heaven.

Sure but this isn't important to the discussion. We are comparing similar/identical verses that use the terms interchangeably. That is what proves they are the same.

Fact- No biblical author (excluding Matthew) Ever Uses the term Kingdom of Heaven to Refer to the Kingdom of God.

And Mathew proves the terms mean the same thing.

Fact- There is No evidence from Mark - Revelation that the term Kingdom of Heaven can be used to refer to the Kingdom of God.

That has already been proven by comparing other scriptures that use KOH for the same scriptural topic.

Fact- No modern tranlation of the Book of Matthew Interchanges these two kingdoms they all render KoG passages as KoG and KoH passages as KoH.

Yeah that's because they follow what word is used in the manuscripts. There is nothing shocking here.

So to recap there is No evidence or examples from Mark- Revelation of the term KoH being used interchangeably to refer to the KoG.

That's incorrect. I have proven it using scripture. Your entire post is devoid of scripture to support your claims so the readers can make up their own minds.

There is No modern tranlation of the book of Matthew that arbitrarily places these kingdoms into passages.

I believe this type of thing is merely a red herring fallacy. No one suggests the Greek word for God should be replaced by the Greek for heaven in these passages. KOH and KOG are simply two names for the same exact thing. That's a proven fact here. On the same exact scripture in the gospels, Matthew can use KOH, and another writer can use KOG and there is no conflict because both are the same. Reply if you wish but I have provided the scriptural evidence and continuing to counter your opinions with the scriptures is no further needed.

I'll end with the original post:

Mat_19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat_19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

The kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are the same thing because they are used interchangeably.

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The kingdom of heaven AND the kingdom of God is at hand

Mat_3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat_10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat_4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mar_1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Luk_21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.


Least in the kingdom of heaven AND least in the kingdom of God

Mat_11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Luk_7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.


Mysteries of the kingdom of heaven AND mysteries of the kingdom of God

Mat_13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Luk_8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.


Suffer little children: the kingdom of heaven AND the kingdom of God

Mat_19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.


Mar_10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Luk_18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.