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  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-q...aven-the-same/

    Kingdoms Compared

    So what is the difference between the two phrases Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven? Matthew frequently exchanged the expression “Kingdom of God” for “Kingdom of Heaven.” This was a common practice among the Jews because they did not want to refer to God directly by using His name, so they would use heaven. The following table will reveal that there is actually no difference between the two phrases.


    Notice that Matthew used “Kingdom of Heaven” and Luke used “Kingdom of God” interchangeably in the same thought. Matthew also interchangeably used both expressions in two sentences.

    Another example occurs in the following table.

    Again we see that the expressions have the same sense. The only difference between the passages are the two expressions. This occurs in the Sermon on the Mount when Jesus says that the poor in spirit are blessed (Matt. 5:3 and Luke 6:20). It occurs again in Matt 8:11 and Luke 13:29 about “reclining with Abraham” and then in Matt. 11:11 and Luke 7:28 when Jesus was talking to His disciples about being the greatest in the kingdom. In Matthew 13, we discover that Jesus says that the kingdom currently includes true Christians and those who claim to be Christians since the kingdom is universal. But some day the false Christians will be removed from the kingdom.

    The following table lists the kingdom parables found in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

    The kingdom exists today both in heaven (Matthew 6:10) and here on earth in a spiritual sense in the hearts of Christians. Is there is a difference between the two expressions kingdom of God and the kingdom of Heaven? Some have concluded that the kingdom of heaven includes both true and false Christians, but the kingdom of God includes only true Christians. This conclusion is difficult to support since the parable of the sower of the seed includes four soils. Three of the soils represent false Christians, but only the fourth one represents true Christians. Then one must remember that the three synoptic gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke include the parable (Matthew 13:3-23; Mark 4:3-25; Luke 8:5-15). The phrase kingdom of God is used in Mark and Luke in the parable. Therefore, it not correct to say that the kingdom of God only includes true believers since Mark and Luke include the parable in describing the kingdom of God. Matthew includes the parable when describing the kingdom of Heaven. It should be noticed that within the parable, Matthew 13:11 refers to the kingdom of heaven while Mark 4:11 refers to the kingdom of God and so does Luke 8:10. This implies that both the kingdom of Heaven and the kingdom of God include false and true professors.
    Conclusion

    The solution to the question, is there a difference between the kingdom of Heaven and the kingdom of God is not that one expression has some unique meaning. Instead, the two kingdoms are identical and only those who believe in Jesus Christ will spend eternity with God.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

    Comment


    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

      As i said the problem with this argument is that they do not actually prove interchangeability. Luke and Mark neither of them Ever used the term Kingdom of Heaven. The Did NOT use both terms ever much less interchange them. At best your argument could prove is that the terms in Matthew are synonyms.

      Comment


      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

        Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
        At best your argument could prove is that the terms in Matthew are synonyms.
        That's good progress. I hope you do feel they are synonyms at least in that one example.
        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

        Comment


        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
          That's good progress. I hope you do feel they are synonyms at least in that one example.
          At least that claim can be supported. But maybe, you would agree that we don't have the right to go into every NT passage and change KoG into KoH, that's essentially what your interchangeable claim is, the fact is we have no evidence of any bible writer doing that in any instance. Every NT writer besides Matthew uniformly uses the term KoG. I don't think it's illogical to believe that when Matthew said Kingdom of Heaven he meant Kingdom of Heaven.

          Comment


          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

            Without actually getting into the middle of the KOH/KOG debate, there is a way to move forward with the discussion. We know that there are times when the two terms are seemingly used interchangeably. We also know that only Matthew used KOH. The key is to look at how Matthew used KOH that ISN'T used in a similar fashion (using KOG). Then formulate a definition that does not violate or disagree with when they are used in interchangeable fashion.

            Blessings
            The PuP

            Comment


            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

              Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
              Without actually getting into the middle of the KOH/KOG debate, there is a way to move forward with the discussion. We know that there are times when the two terms are seemingly used interchangeably. We also know that only Matthew used KOH. The key is to look at how Matthew used KOH that ISN'T used in a similar fashion (using KOG). Then formulate a definition that does not violate or disagree with when they are used in interchangeable fashion.

              Blessings
              The PuP
              and you feel this hasn't been done? If every post and explanation of mine has shown the koh to be what takes place in the natural, what we can see, and the koG is what takes place in spirit, what we cant see, and these do not violate one another when they are used similarly, what am I missing?

              Comment


              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                It does
                No, you're confused. It shows them being used similarly, not interchangeably. There's a difference.


                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                and the difference here is that I showed it using scripture
                No, you posted verses you think show similarities. So what?


                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                but you provide only your opinion backed up by nothing.
                That is a lie. Go back and read my post again.


                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                Yet another post that claims this but doesn't offer proof.
                I've given a lot of commentary on this and all you have done is post verse. You're joke. Again. As usual.


                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                These are strawmen arguments since no one is arguing those things are equal.
                Words have meaning. That's not a strawman. You are arguing they are the same. If you're not then you have to admit an aspect to the kingdoms they are used to describe make them different. Which is it gonna be?


                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                The issue is how the KOH and KOG is used and they are used identically that's because they are the same things.

                Mat_19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.


                Mar_10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

                Here literally the same statement yet Mathew recalls heaven used and Mark recalls God being used but they are clearly equal according to the writers. Any supposed difference between the terms is man made and isn't backed by scripture.
                Again, similarity doesn't demand there be no differences. Those two automobiles are the same color blue. So what? One is electric the other is gas. One is a 4dr sedan the other is a truck.

                Try to start being intellectually honest or move along. You're not contributing to the discussion one bit.

                Comment


                • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                  Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                  Fact- No biblical author (excluding Matthew) Ever Uses the term Kingdom of Heaven to Refer to the Kingdom of God.
                  False. Matthew never uses koh to refer to koG.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                    I believe this type of thing is merely a red herring fallacy. No one suggests the Greek word for God should be replaced by the Greek for heaven in these passages. KOH and KOG are simply two names for the same exact thing.
                    *THAT* is a red herring!


                    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                    vThat's a proven fact here.
                    Just the opposite. The two phrases were used in back to back verses with a difference.


                    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                    On the same exact scripture in the gospels, Matthew can use KOH, and another writer can use KOG
                    The natural is a reflection of the spirit. Most things are similar. That the two phrases have a lot of similarities is no surprise.


                    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                    and there is no conflict because both are the same.
                    In a lot of instances yes. So?

                    Comment


                    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                      https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-q...aven-the-same/

                      Kingdoms Compared

                      So what is the difference between the two phrases Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven? Matthew frequently exchanged the expression “Kingdom of God” for “Kingdom of Heaven.” This was a common practice among the Jews because they did not want to refer to God directly by using His name, so they would use heaven.
                      Saddest comment made every time this is discussed. Why? Because Matthew also used God. Why? You can't answer. Why? All you can do is read a website to tell you what to think and say. Very sad.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                        https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-q...aven-the-same/

                        Kingdoms Compared

                        So what is the difference between the two phrases Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven? Matthew frequently exchanged the expression “Kingdom of God” for “Kingdom of Heaven.” This was a common practice among the Jews because they did not want to refer to God directly by using His name, so they would use heaven. The following table will reveal that there is actually no difference between the two phrases.


                        Notice that Matthew used “Kingdom of Heaven” and Luke used “Kingdom of God” interchangeably in the same thought. Matthew also interchangeably used both expressions in two sentences.

                        Another example occurs in the following table.

                        Again we see that the expressions have the same sense. The only difference between the passages are the two expressions. This occurs in the Sermon on the Mount when Jesus says that the poor in spirit are blessed (Matt. 5:3 and Luke 6:20). It occurs again in Matt 8:11 and Luke 13:29 about “reclining with Abraham” and then in Matt. 11:11 and Luke 7:28 when Jesus was talking to His disciples about being the greatest in the kingdom. In Matthew 13, we discover that Jesus says that the kingdom currently includes true Christians and those who claim to be Christians since the kingdom is universal. But some day the false Christians will be removed from the kingdom.

                        The following table lists the kingdom parables found in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

                        The kingdom exists today both in heaven (Matthew 6:10) and here on earth in a spiritual sense in the hearts of Christians. Is there is a difference between the two expressions kingdom of God and the kingdom of Heaven? Some have concluded that the kingdom of heaven includes both true and false Christians, but the kingdom of God includes only true Christians. This conclusion is difficult to support since the parable of the sower of the seed includes four soils. Three of the soils represent false Christians, but only the fourth one represents true Christians. Then one must remember that the three synoptic gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke include the parable (Matthew 13:3-23; Mark 4:3-25; Luke 8:5-15). The phrase kingdom of God is used in Mark and Luke in the parable. Therefore, it not correct to say that the kingdom of God only includes true believers since Mark and Luke include the parable in describing the kingdom of God. Matthew includes the parable when describing the kingdom of Heaven. It should be noticed that within the parable, Matthew 13:11 refers to the kingdom of heaven while Mark 4:11 refers to the kingdom of God and so does Luke 8:10. This implies that both the kingdom of Heaven and the kingdom of God include false and true professors.
                        Conclusion

                        The solution to the question, is there a difference between the kingdom of Heaven and the kingdom of God is not that one expression has some unique meaning. Instead, the two kingdoms are identical and only those who believe in Jesus Christ will spend eternity with God.
                        I didn't go through these, but as pointed out earlier with a few examples, sometimes almost everything matches but then there's that one little difference between the two "assumed parallel parables", and if we applied the principle from koh version we would be violating NT koG principle. I've give a few examples of this and in typical fashion you've said nothing.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                          Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                          I've give a few examples of this and in typical fashion you've said nothing.
                          Sorry but I rarely ever read your posts.
                          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                            Noeb, I have been trying to follow what you are saying about both KG and KH. You are saying both have mostly the same features. Does this represent to you the difference between the two?:

                            First, the KG only contains beings who willingly subject themselves to the rule of God—whether human or angelic. The KH, however, contains only earthly creatures who profess to be subject to God. Thus, the KH contains both believers and unbelievers, while the KG contains true believers. Second, the KG is eternal and spiritual in nature, while the KH is temporal and physical in nature.

                            Also what kingdom to you are we asking to come in the Lords prayer?

                            I follow what ewq posted in them being the same... you are saying though that both kingdoms have things in them that do represent truths of both kingdoms yet they represent two different kingdoms.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                              Noeb, ok I just found this verse of Jesus talking, and He used both in this talking about the same thing... He even said “again I say unto you”

                              Matthew 19:23-24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

                              With this I have to ask myself, isn't Jesus using them as being synonymous? How would you explain this?

                              Noeb, ok I just found this verse of Jesus talking, and He used both in this talking about the same thing... He even said “again I say unto you”

                              Matthew 19:23-24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

                              With this I have to ask myself, isn't Jesus using them as being synonymous? How would you explain this?

                              Comment


                              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                                Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                                Honestly, I doubt you will find any evidence to support the claim in bold at best it can be considered incomplete, the Messiah is to be the "King of Israel". The Messiah will rule on the Throne of David, a bunch of passages that support this claim and Jesus himself said it. “Truly I tell you, in the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for the sake of My name will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life.

                                Second who is "Israel" (in regards to the idea Israel never claimed this or that)?
                                When the disciples asked Jesus whether he was going to restore the kingdom to Israel, they weren't talking about His Second Coming or His rulership over Israel. The Jews' idea of restoring their kingdom at that time was merely to restore their independence which they lost in 65 BC when Jerusalem fell to Pompey. From then to the time of Christ, they were oppressed and heavily taxed by Rome. They were looking for a time they would no longer be a Roman vassal, period.

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