Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

[Trivalee]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

Sure it could be intrepreted a bunch of ways but the passages does not say this about the Kingdom of Heaven. The people who copied the bible did so faithfully, we don't find evidence of them just switching up the terms KoH and KoG arbitrarily. If they meant the same thing maybe some bible tranlations would just supstiture all KoH references for KoG but this just doesn't happen. The truth is there are clear discintions, for me my rubric on this subject is simple. Every time Matthew says KoH he refers to the KoH and whenever he says KoG he refers to the KoG.

If you say so....

[Trivalee]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

Here's another verse...

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

I don't see how the "kingdoms of this world" include the kingdom of heaven?

[Trivalee]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

Another.....
Assumed "parallel" parables of the talent in Matthew and Luke. In the koh parable in Matthew the slothful servant is cast into outer darkness. In the koG parable he is not, which is as Paul said....still 'saved', but lose reward.

The koG is said to have come upon someone when demons are cast out, healing, etc. It is not said the koh comes upon anyone.

Mentioned earlier is the consecutive verses..... Hard to enter the koh, impossible to enter the koG. Entrance in to koh is based on works - Matt 25. This is not born again believers. They are already with Christ and return with him. These are the surviving nations gathered to determine whether they stay in the koh ruled by Messiah or are cast out. This is determined by works. Note that those that remain because of what they did to Jesus, via how they treated his brother, did not know what they did to his brother they did to him. Believers know this basic principle. Entrance into the koG is not based on works, but faith. So what Jesus was saying it that it is hard, but possible, for a man to enter the koh ruled by Messiah by works, but impossible to enter the koG by works.

These are off the top of my head. I have a post somewhere that lists them all but despite several attempts to find it I have been unable to. There is a book called "The Eight Kingdoms" by Michael Pearl that lays all the similarities and differences out. I don't agree with some of it (not to mention a lot of he's teachings) but it's a good resource for laying it all out in front of you, making it easier to study this for yourself.

When Christ returns to start his millennial rule, the New Jerusalem will come down from heaven. At least you placed the timeline of your kingdom of heaven after the Lord has returned. As I pointed out, the NJ comes down to us at that time too. So your claim that the KOH is different from the KOG because it's presumably on earth NOW is not valid.

[Trivalee]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over [g]all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that [h]moves on the earth.”

The dominion of Man is clearly spelt out in these passages. I didn't say there was a throne in the garden they used it in the video to express the idea of dominion over the earth. I hope these passages clearly spell out for you "what" Adam and Eve Ruled.

Thanks for clarifying. The fact that the video you provided erred by claiming that Adam and Eve had a throne in the garden is a clear reminder of what we discussed yesterday about unvetted materials from sources whose provenance is dodgy. IOW, if there is an error in the material the one who is relying on it and who don't know better, will inadvertently promote the same lie and error. When God gave Adam and Eve dominion over every other creature, that dominion transcends time to every human on earth, so their argument makes no sense.

It's ok like i said, and i don't mean this to be offensive you personally seem have a really hard time understanding positions that are not your own so its difficult to debate you. The most you usually offer is your own position as a counter to those of others. Niether of these passages specifically mention the KoH but anyone who read the passages and watches the video should be able to get the drift of what i'm stating.

My apologies. Maybe it's my fault, I can't be dimwitted sometimes. But I read the passages you provided to support your case and found they say something else. I don't know how I'm supposed to accept what isn't there? Secondly, you said I usually "offer my own position as a counter to those of others"; why shouldn't I rely on my own position? I find it difficult to defend someone else's position, hence I'm comfortable with mine.

[Trivalee]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

Do you recall my listing the numerous "BLESSED" passages that relate to "the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom" (and their entrance into that time period upon His "RETURN" to the earth [not our Rapture])?

"BLESSED" -

--Daniel 12:12 ("BLESSED is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days")

--Matthew 23:39

--Matthew 24:46 (Olivet Discourse covering His Second Coming to the earth, NOT our Rapture, per CONTEXT)

--Matthew 25:34 (ditto the above)

--[Mark 11:10]

--Luke 12:37,38,43 (verses 36-44; "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal [note also the "G347 - shall sit down" word, denoting "at a meal, around a table" in Matt8:11 and its parallel)

--Revelation 16:15-16 (timing: Armagedon [not our Rapture, btw])

--Revelation 19:9 (regarding the "INVITED guests [plural]" and "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [aka the earthly MK], in DISTINCTION FROM that of the verse 7 "Bride/Wife [singular]" regarding "the MARRIAGE" itself, which will have ALREADY taken place in Heaven by this point [aorist] in Rev19 [not so regarding "the FEAST/SUPPER," which the gospels' accounts show to be/commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth, where in said contexts no "BRIDE" is mentioned [but the "Bridegroom" will be returning as an "already-wed" Bridegroom... FOR the earthly MK, where the contexts explain who (then) will enter that time period with [G3326 - meta - accompanying] Him (in contrast to the "G4862 - syn - with/UNION" word used regarding our Rapture, elsewhere/in OTHER contexts)]).


IOW, the "BLESSED" passages that refer to the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (aka "the kingdom of the heavens" and its governance, or what have you).

The earthly millennial kingdom is the New Jerusalem that comes down from HEAVEN. As far as it comes down from above, it proves my case that the KoH and KOG are synonymous!

[Trivalee]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

It was specific to the chief priest and elders (v23) Jesus was speaking to.

Yeah right!

Let's say an important dignitary meets with a representative of the US govt and delivers a message. Would you say the message is for the people of the United States or exclusively for those representatives? Hope I don't need to remind you that a government is a representative of the people?

The Priest and Elders as you put it made up the Jewish Council (Sanhedrin) at the time which is as close to a governmental structure as there is. So when Jesus admonished them that the kingdom will be taken from them and given to others, how can you interpret it as anything else, but the nation/people of Israel?

[Trivalee]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

Scripture uses 'throne' descriptively. Many nations, principalities, powers, etc don't have actual thrones.

Another difference.....
-poor in spirit -koh, context Israel occupied by Rom, persecution, oppression. The koh ruled by Messiah would bring relief.
-poor -koG, context have your basic needs met.

My question is, did the Bible say Adam and Eve sat on a "throne" in the garden of Eden? The answer is NO!

[Trivalee]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

The kingdom under Solomon's rule is similar and the closest to the koh we have ever come. Jesus will take it to the next level and fulfill the promise to Abraham that his seed will inherit and rule the earth. How is it you don't think they had this in mind?

What I'm hearing here is purely conjecture. The kingdom of Solomon was neither perfect or anywhere close to the kingdom of heaven. If you understand that the KOH which Jesus spoke about is the MK then you'll also understand that it is made up of the New Jerusalem which comes down from above. So even though it is on earth, it is devoid of anything that offends (Rev 21:27).

You are arguing that the KoH is on earth, I get that. But what you are forgetting is that it is not this wicked and polluted earth we live in right now. As I have said in several places, the fact that it comes down from above makes it the SAME with the KOG.

[Trivalee]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

The problem is that this is not proof that these terms are Interchangeable. If you want to speak facts lets speak facts.

Fact - Matthew is the Only Book in the Bible that uses the term Kingdom of Heaven.

Fact- No biblical author (excluding Matthew) Ever Uses the term Kingdom of Heaven to Refer to the Kingdom of God.

Fact- There is No evidence from Mark - Revelation that the term Kingdom of Heaven can be used to refer to the Kingdom of God.

Fact- No modern tranlation of the Book of Matthew Interchanges these two kingdoms they all render KoG passages as KoG and KoH passages as KoH.

So to recap there is No evidence or examples from Mark- Revelation of the term KoH being used interchangeably to refer to the KoG.

There is No modern tranlation of the book of Matthew that arbitrarily places these kingdoms into passages.

Those are facts.

Let's say you are right. You have explained the "kingdom of heaven" as the earth we dwell in right now, correct? You even used the parable of the wheat and tare as proof. But in that parable, Jesus didn't say the koh is the earth, he said that "the koh can be likened/compared to" to a man who sowed good seed, etc. But what you overlooked is that the householder told his servants to leave the wheat and tares to grow together until the harvest [end of the age] when they are separated.

The key, therefore, is the "harvest/end time" that's when the koh is actually ushered in - not NOW. And if at the end times, then it refers to the MK/New Jerusalem which is from above. Hope this will shut this argument down at last?

[Jesuslovesus]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

Let's say you are right. You have explained the "kingdom of heaven" as the earth we dwell in right now, correct? You even used the parable of the wheat and tare as proof. But in that parable, Jesus didn't say the koh is the earth, he said that "the koh can be likened/compared to" to a man who sowed good seed, etc. But what you overlooked is that the householder told his servants to leave the wheat and tares to grow together until the harvest [end of the age] when they are separated.

The key, therefore, is the "harvest/end time" that's when the koh is actually ushered in - not NOW. And if at the end times, then it refers to the MK/New Jerusalem which is from above. Hope this will shut this argument down at last?

Just for the record I didn't make the argument here that you attribute to me. Honestly you posted this reply on every single person, but from what i understand most people do Not believe that the NJ comes at the same time as Jesus, most who read Rev 19-21 Will see that Jesus comes first sets up his Rule for 1k Years (THis is the KoH), the NJ is not the Millenial Kingdom, the NJ comes after the MK and is a part of the NHNE when Heaven and Earth become one.

So none of the post where you claim the NJ = MK is gonna get any agreemnent sadly.

[Jesuslovesus]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

My question is, did the Bible say Adam and Eve sat on a "throne" in the garden of Eden? The answer is NO!

Like I, said the video didn't say that Adam and Eve sat on a throne, the throne in the video represented the idea of Dominion.

[Jesuslovesus]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

The earthly millennial kingdom is the New Jerusalem that comes down from HEAVEN. As far as it comes down from above, it proves my case that the KoH and KOG are synonymous!

Then it is clear your case is faulty, there is no mention in Rev 20 (when the Millenial Kingdom is set up) that the NJ comes also, clearly, the NJ comes after the GWTJ. So since none of us agree with the bolded portion of your argument we do not accept it as proof. This is why i say stop trying to offer proof of things, you're not here to offer proofs just your opinion.

Rev 20:2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Where do you see any mention of the NJ coming during this Thousand Years?

It is clear from Rev 21 that the NJ comes After the NHNE

Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.


I hope you see why these passages mean we cannot except your arguments as proof of anything.

The KoH = MK = The Establishment of Christ Reign on Earth. Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

[Jesuslovesus]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

Thanks for clarifying. The fact that the video you provided erred by claiming that Adam and Eve had a throne in the garden is a clear reminder of what we discussed yesterday about unvetted materials from sources whose provenance is dodgy. IOW, if there is an error in the material the one who is relying on it and who don't know better, will inadvertently promote the same lie and error. When God gave Adam and Eve dominion over every other creature, that dominion transcends time to every human on earth, so their argument makes no sense.

Sorry the video didn't claim Adam and Eve had a thone in the Garden, its sad that you can't understand how they used the throne to express dominion. Just like they used crowns to express rulership, as far as i can see there theolgy was not faulty. But actually it is all vetted and supported with scholar level material that has been peer-reviewed.

My apologies. Maybe it's my fault, I can't be dimwitted sometimes. But I read the passages you provided to support your case and found they say something else. I don't know how I'm supposed to accept what isn't there? Secondly, you said I usually "offer my own position as a counter to those of others"; why shouldn't I rely on my own position? I find it difficult to defend someone else's position, hence I'm comfortable with mine.

The only way that you can Debate with someone is to interact with thier position. Sometimes you get to the point where your argument will become if you don't agree with me position you need, more study,prayer, divine inspiration, or divine intervention. The fact is many of us can read these bible passages and come to different theolgy or views. Just because you personally believe something does not mean it's the truth, even if in your own head your agruments are "proof".

[Jesuslovesus]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

When the disciples asked Jesus whether he was going to restore the kingdom to Israel, they weren't talking about His Second Coming or His rulership over Israel.

I disagree, I believe this is exactly what they expected.

The Jews' idea of restoring their kingdom at that time was merely to restore their independence which they lost in 65 BC when Jerusalem fell to Pompey. From then to the time of Christ, they were oppressed and heavily taxed by Rome. They were looking for a time they would no longer be a Roman vassal, period.

So you believe all the Jews expected from Messiah was to free them from Rome is that the full extent of what the Jews believe about Messiah in your view?

[Noeb]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

Sorry but I rarely ever read your posts.

Then stop claiming things have not been done that have. Thanks for wasting everyone time.