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  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Originally posted by kyCyd View Post
    Noeb, I have been trying to follow what you are saying about both KG and KH. You are saying both have mostly the same features. Does this represent to you the difference between the two?:

    First, the KG only contains beings who willingly subject themselves to the rule of God—whether human or angelic.
    The koG is spiritual, so for humans yes, for angelic or otherwise is a gray area but I would say they too are part of the koG and here's why. They are spirit, we don't see them (usually), we war spiritually with them, and Jesus said the fowls of the air that live in the branches of the kingdom are Satan/devils. This of course doesn't mean they are 'saved' or anything they're just a part of the kingdom, for now.


    Originally posted by kyCyd View Post
    The KH, however, contains only earthly creatures who profess to be subject to God.
    All creatures and the earth.


    Originally posted by kyCyd View Post
    Thus, the KH contains both believers and unbelievers
    Yes, wheat and tare grow up together until his return.


    Originally posted by kyCyd View Post
    while the KG contains true believers.
    Yes. There are no tares in the koG.


    Originally posted by kyCyd View Post
    Second, the KG is eternal and spiritual in nature, while the KH is temporal and physical in nature.
    Yes.


    Originally posted by kyCyd View Post
    Also what kingdom to you are we asking to come in the Lords prayer?
    As it says thine is "the kingdom". The context is prayer for things needed now, so I don't think it's saying may your plan (koG in fulness on earth(koh) --koh/koG=The Kingdom) come to completion. Rather, I think it means, as we treat on another in the koh as we should (beatitudes) with koh principles as we will when you rule the earth, meet our needs with your power and authority (koG). Remember
    -the koh is for the poor in spirit: relief from oppression when Messiah rules the earth.
    -the koG is for the poor: needs met thru Providence
    In this way the two kingdoms are working together as God intended from the beginning.


    Originally posted by kyCyd View Post
    I follow what ewq posted in them being the same... you are saying though that both kingdoms have things in them that do represent truths of both kingdoms yet they represent two different kingdoms.
    Yes. Think about it. The theme of spirit/natural runs throughout scripture. How can we win this battle? The army of the Lord. What army? God open his eyes - and there's the army of the Lord, who can kill the natural with their spiritual sword. It's not a contrast, but they are compared. We are lower that the angels, yet so similar you can't tell the difference and both called sons of God, but they can do what we can't. When we are made spiritual we will be practically the same, minus blood and corruptible flesh. God wants the same behavior in the natural as he does in the spirit. So of course there are going to be similarities in the parables. A lot of them. The more Christians behave koh ruled by Messiah the more koG and the closer we are to displaying The Kingdom that is to come. This, is his will now. No need to wait. Just look at the first church/Acts.

    Comment


    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
      The earthly millennial kingdom is the New Jerusalem that comes down from HEAVEN. As far as it comes down from above, it proves my case that the KoH and KOG are synonymous!
      Well, let me put it to you like this: do you believe that everyone who will exist in the earthly MK will have "come down from Heaven" (having been previously raptured and, with that, also "changed/glorified/perfected")? Or do you believe ppl in mortal bodies will enter the time period of the MK (able to bear children/reproduce/have offspring)? And if so, of those still-living "mortals," do you believe some will be yet "unsaved" (upon entering that time period), or that only "saints" will enter that time period?

      Comment


      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

        Originally posted by kyCyd View Post
        Noeb, ok I just found this verse of Jesus talking, and He used both in this talking about the same thing... He even said “again I say unto you”

        Matthew 19:23-24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

        With this I have to ask myself, isn't Jesus using them as being synonymous? How would you explain this?
        Here's my previous posts
        https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...44#post3490744
        https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...87#post3490987
        https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...74#post3491074

        "Two consecutive verses that contrast heaven/God and hard/impossible cannot be describing two phrases that are interchangeable."

        "Mentioned earlier is the consecutive verses..... Hard to enter the koh, impossible to enter the koG. Entrance in to koh is based on works - Matt 25. This is not born again believers. They are already with Christ and return with him. These are the surviving nations gathered to determine whether they stay in the koh ruled by Messiah or are cast out. This is determined by works. Note that those that remain because of what they did to Jesus, via how they treated his brother, did not know what they did to his brother they did to him. Believers know this basic principle. Entrance into the koG is not based on works, but faith. So what Jesus was saying it that it is hard, but possible, for a man to enter the koh ruled by Messiah by works, but impossible to enter the koG by works."

        "You're defining them as being used interchangeably, but scripture does not. That there are differences means the two phrases cannot be used interchangeably. The two phrases are used to show similarities and differences so they are not interchangeable. The most obvious example is one you posted. Hard and impossible is not the same. God and heaven is not the same. And no, heaven was not used interchangeably in place of God. That's a lie. They didn't have any problem saying his name. Scripture and literature are filled with it. This is like you showing me 2 pictures, one black and one gray, or a perfect circle and an oval, and telling me they are the same. Absurd. Not only is this personal and created it denies language, logic, and reason. A car and automobile is the same thing. Hard and impossible, God and heaven are not."

        Please read those first and let me know what you think and if you need more.

        Comment


        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          When the disciples asked Jesus whether he was going to restore the kingdom to Israel, they weren't talking about His Second Coming or His rulership over Israel. The Jews' idea of restoring their kingdom at that time was merely to restore their independence which they lost in 65 BC when Jerusalem fell to Pompey. From then to the time of Christ, they were oppressed and heavily taxed by Rome. They were looking for a time they would no longer be a Roman vassal, period.
          and you know this how? Didn't we go over this already? The promise to Abraham was to inherit and rule the earth. How do you know this isn't what they had in mind?

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          I don't see how the "kingdoms of this world" include the kingdom of heaven?
          the koh is this world and all in it

          Comment


          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

            Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
            When Christ returns to start his millennial rule, the New Jerusalem will come down from heaven.
            No, that's after the millennium and GWTJ, with the new heaven and earth.


            Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
            At least you placed the timeline of your kingdom of heaven after the Lord has returned. As I pointed out, the NJ comes down to us at that time too. So your claim that the KOH is different from the KOG because it's presumably on earth NOW is not valid.
            I did not. I have said repeatedly -koh under Messiah's rule. The koh is past, present, and future, proven by the fact that Jesus said let the wheat and tares grow up together until I return, so it is your view that is not valid.

            Comment


            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
              Yeah right!

              Let's say an important dignitary meets with a representative of the US govt and delivers a message. Would you say the message is for the people of the United States or exclusively for those representatives? Hope I don't need to remind you that a government is a representative of the people?

              The Priest and Elders as you put it made up the Jewish Council (Sanhedrin) at the time which is as close to a governmental structure as there is. So when Jesus admonished them that the kingdom will be taken from them and given to others, how can you interpret it as anything else, but the nation/people of Israel?
              LOL
              How do you explain the first church being Israeli if the koG was taken from them?
              LOL

              It's astounding, the things people believe. What this does is introduce a lot of false doctrine, like replacement theology. Shame, shame!

              Comment


              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                Yeah right!

                Let's say an important dignitary meets with a representative of the US govt and delivers a message. Would you say the message is for the people of the United States or exclusively for those representatives? Hope I don't need to remind you that a government is a representative of the people?

                The Priest and Elders as you put it made up the Jewish Council (Sanhedrin) at the time which is as close to a governmental structure as there is. So when Jesus admonished them that the kingdom will be taken from them and given to others, how can you interpret it as anything else, but the nation/people of Israel?
                Not to mention the nation that had fruit was Israel. Not all that are of Israel are Israel though, remember? Who is a jew? Blood, or behavior? It was taken from the leaders and given to the believers. Anything else is false doctrine. TO the Jew first, then Gentile. You have nothing to stand on.

                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                My question is, did the Bible say Adam and Eve sat on a "throne" in the garden of Eden? The answer is NO!
                It's an unnecessary, useless question.

                Comment


                • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  What I'm hearing here is purely conjecture. The kingdom of Solomon was neither perfect or anywhere close to the kingdom of heaven. If you understand that the KOH which Jesus spoke about is the MK then you'll also understand that it is made up of the New Jerusalem which comes down from above. So even though it is on earth, it is devoid of anything that offends (Rev 21:27).

                  You are arguing that the KoH is on earth, I get that. But what you are forgetting is that it is not this wicked and polluted earth we live in right now. As I have said in several places, the fact that it comes down from above makes it the SAME with the KOG.
                  You have little understanding of the MK. There will still be sinners. Still be those that rebel. Still those that perish because of disobedience. Still those that come against the great city and are devoured. The MK is not all peaches and cream. Your timeline is messed up. Back to the scriptures you go.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                    Let's say you are right. You have explained the "kingdom of heaven" as the earth we dwell in right now, correct? You even used the parable of the wheat and tare as proof. But in that parable, Jesus didn't say the koh is the earth, he said that "the koh can be likened/compared to" to a man who sowed good seed, etc. But what you overlooked is that the householder told his servants to leave the wheat and tares to grow together until the harvest [end of the age] when they are separated.

                    The key, therefore, is the "harvest/end time" that's when the koh is actually ushered in - not NOW. And if at the end times, then it refers to the MK/New Jerusalem which is from above. Hope this will shut this argument down at last?
                    Why are you ignoring all the other aspects of the parable? Like the seed is sown in the field and Jesus said the field is the world. Everything that takes place, takes place in the world for a very long period of time. You can't just jump to the end. Try to apply this nonsense to the next four parables. You can't.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                      Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                      Here's my previous posts
                      https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...44#post3490744
                      https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...87#post3490987
                      https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...74#post3491074

                      "Two consecutive verses that contrast heaven/God and hard/impossible cannot be describing two phrases that are interchangeable."

                      "Mentioned earlier is the consecutive verses..... Hard to enter the koh, impossible to enter the koG. Entrance in to koh is based on works - Matt 25. This is not born again believers. They are already with Christ and return with him. These are the surviving nations gathered to determine whether they stay in the koh ruled by Messiah or are cast out. This is determined by works. Note that those that remain because of what they did to Jesus, via how they treated his brother, did not know what they did to his brother they did to him. Believers know this basic principle. Entrance into the koG is not based on works, but faith. So what Jesus was saying it that it is hard, but possible, for a man to enter the koh ruled by Messiah by works, but impossible to enter the koG by works."

                      "You're defining them as being used interchangeably, but scripture does not. That there are differences means the two phrases cannot be used interchangeably. The two phrases are used to show similarities and differences so they are not interchangeable. The most obvious example is one you posted. Hard and impossible is not the same. God and heaven is not the same. And no, heaven was not used interchangeably in place of God. That's a lie. They didn't have any problem saying his name. Scripture and literature are filled with it. This is like you showing me 2 pictures, one black and one gray, or a perfect circle and an oval, and telling me they are the same. Absurd. Not only is this personal and created it denies language, logic, and reason. A car and automobile is the same thing. Hard and impossible, God and heaven are not."

                      Please read those first and let me know what you think and if you need more.
                      Thanks for the explanations and the links. I brought this topic up a year or so ago as I questioned it and started a thread on it. With all the explaining I still came away with them being the same thing.

                      Now I am beginning to see the difference, so thank you for taking the time to answer my questions, it has really help me to see a difference in the two now. For me I always think there is a reason for how things are written in the Bible even when I don't understand it at the time. If Matthew had of been consistent in just using KofH it would be one thing, but he did refer to both terms which always made it puzzling to me. I think I understand the difference now.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                        Originally posted by kyCyd View Post
                        Thanks for the explanations and the links. I brought this topic up a year or so ago as I questioned it and started a thread on it. With all the explaining I still came away with them being the same thing.

                        Now I am beginning to see the difference, so thank you for taking the time to answer my questions, it has really help me to see a difference in the two now. For me I always think there is a reason for how things are written in the Bible even when I don't understand it at the time. If Matthew had of been consistent in just using KofH it would be one thing, but he did refer to both terms which always made it puzzling to me. I think I understand the difference now.
                        You're welcome and I'm glad.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                          Originally posted by kyCyd View Post
                          Thanks for the explanations and the links. I brought this topic up a year or so ago as I questioned it and started a thread on it. With all the explaining I still came away with them being the same thing.

                          Now I am beginning to see the difference, so thank you for taking the time to answer my questions, it has really help me to see a difference in the two now. For me I always think there is a reason for how things are written in the Bible even when I don't understand it at the time. If Matthew had of been consistent in just using KofH it would be one thing, but he did refer to both terms which always made it puzzling to me. I think I understand the difference now.
                          I found this post of mine from 7/2018
                          https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...97#post3453597
                          "They are phrases used to describe The Kingdom. The Kingdom is physical and spiritual, what we see and don't see. God decided the physical kingdom would be here, on earth. That is the kingdom of heaven, or as Daniel puts it, the kingdom under the whole heaven. This is why Matthew states the implementation of the physical kingdom provides relief to the oppressed and persecuted. This is not said of the kingdom of God. It provides relief through God's spiritual provision. It does not say seek the kingdom of heaven first and your needs will be provided, and it doesn't say the implementation of the kingdom of God relieves you of your oppressors.

                          There are similarities and differences found in the spiritual and physical. There are earthy bodies and spiritual bodies that when put side by side it would be said they are similar, but they are also different. You wouldn't see the difference with your natural eye, but the differences are there none the less. So it is with The Kingdom. When you read about the kingdom of heaven you are reading about what is taking place in the natural on earth, where God decided to have his kingdom, which is both natural and spiritual. When you read about the kingdom of God you are reading about what is taking place in a spiritual sense. Things can effect the spiritual and the natural at the same time.

                          It's easy to see why some think the phrases are synonymous and others don't. A closer look yields balance, and allows for both similarities and differences in the natural and spiritual kingdom in which we live. The different phrases help us understand The Kingdom in which we live and desire to live for eternity."

                          Comment


                          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                            Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                            When Christ returns to start his millennial rule, the New Jerusalem will come down from heaven.
                            That doesn't happen until chp21, after all the events of chp 20. It comes down only after the GWTJ and the beginning of the NHNE.

                            Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
                            Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
                            Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
                            Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
                            Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
                            Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
                            Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
                            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                              Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                              Just for the record I didn't make the argument here that you attribute to me. Honestly you posted this reply on every single person, but from what i understand most people do Not believe that the NJ comes at the same time as Jesus, most who read Rev 19-21 Will see that Jesus comes first sets up his Rule for 1k Years (THis is the KoH), the NJ is not the Millenial Kingdom, the NJ comes after the MK and is a part of the NHNE when Heaven and Earth become one.

                              So none of the post where you claim the NJ = MK is gonna get any agreemnent sadly.
                              Yes, all this is true.
                              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                                Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                                Like I, said the video didn't say that Adam and Eve sat on a throne, the throne in the video represented the idea of Dominion.


                                Right. He wasn't a king with a throne, he was a farmer that also took care of a garden...a gardener.
                                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                                Comment

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