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  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
    My 'position' is backed by scripture. you have to be objective to see it. And what are these "other interpretations" you allude to?
    You used to have a different interpretation personally! Like i said i literally watched you switch your position on this to that of FHG and personally it saddened me a lot, this line or reasoning is very unessasary. Just ask yourself these question when reading this passage.

    And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven[b] and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
    Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Question 1. Did every single person who lived in the nations at the 4 corners of the Earth join Satans army?

    Question 2. Is there any mention of Any of those Nations being destroyed?

    Question 3. Is there any mention of the *Living* being judged during the GWTJ?

    Once you asnwer those questions its easy to understand that those other nations were not destroyed and who the people left outside of the NJ are.

    This is just 1 Altenative explanation.

    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
    I am satisfied and comforted that I present my cases in concise and unambiguous narratives and I leave it to the objective scholar to review, accept or reject. I can do no more.
    Good now let people Challenge it and defend it honestly, thats the point of the boards, to have your beliefs and positions challenged so we can all help each other grow.

    Comment


    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

      Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
      Sure it does.




      The NC has not ended yet, it will at the end of the world I would suppose. We are in the millennial Kingdom now, the Gospel age. The NC takes place on earth, now, and will be fulfilled at the end of time..

      Starting points matter, as does sound theology.
      I'm confused don't all members of the NC live peacfully in the promised land according to the article. Just trying make sure I get what you're saying, do you believe what is written in that article is an accurate representation of your views?

      Comment


      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

        My apologies, Trivalee, I had indeed overlooked this post (I'm not sure what that happens to me a lot ).

        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
        Very good question: the way I see it, the MK will be limited to Jerusalem. But the wicked unsaved mortals who survive the GT will dwell in the rest of the earth/world like today. They are called the "nations" (Rev 21:27). They will marry and reproduce, some of their offsprings may accept Christ and be saved while the majority will not. The unbelieving will be those referred to Gog and Magog whom Satan will convince after his release to surround the holy city (New Jerusalem) Rev 20:8-9.

        I should emphasis IMHO that when the MK is referenced, one should understand that it denotes the fenced 'holy city' that comes down from above Rev 21:10-24 where Christ reigns with his saints. It doesn't include anywhere else outside Jerusalem where unsaved mortals and reprobates live.

        That said, I also accept that there is a possibility that there will be saved mortals who will also live in the NJ and interact with the resurrected and raptured saints. In fact, I'm inclined to believe this is a FACT, especially those nurtured and protected in the desert until Jesus returns. How the saved mortals and those already in immortal and spiritual bodies will interact is a logistic not yet clear to me and many others, I suspect.
        Okay, so let me pose this question like this... Compare the following passages and let me know if you see it as parallel:

        --Revelation 19:19-21 / 16:14-16 / Rev20:5a (at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth [which, in your view is also "when" our Rapture takes place; not my view, for the readers]); parallel (time-wise) to...

        --Isaiah 24:21-22[23] with its TWO "PUNISH" words, separated by the time period labeled there as "and AFTER MANY DAYS"... So, "['SHALL PUNISH" v.21] 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and AFTER MANY DAYS shall they BE PUNISHED" (which phrase "and after MANY DAYS," I believe refers to the earthly MK TIME PERIOD which they will not be present to enjoy and thereafter at the GWTj the final sentence be carried out: "shall they BE PUNISHED" [I'm NOT suggesting that the first "PUNISH" word in verse 21 is not referring to "death," as is referred to in Rev19:21 "and the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse..."]). Who do you believe this speaks of, where it says "and the remnant were slain"? (do you believe this refers solely to one location on the earth, say, perhaps Jerusalem, and that all other areas of the earth will remain unaffected by His "return" to the earth?)

        Revelation 19:15b says "and he shall rule [/shepherd (same word as in Rev7:15-17, in v.17 translated as "feed" there [parallel Isa49:10 an earthly MK passage])] them [the nations] with a rod [sceptre] of iron [righteousness and strength]" [comp. also Heb1:8 "thy sceptre"; and 1Cor15:25-28 "For he must reign..."]


        So you are saying that at the time of His Second Coming to the earth (as in the above passages), which is when you believe the Rapture takes place, that there WILL be "unbelievers" who will proceed to "ENTER" into that time period (the earthly MK), have I grasped your view correctly?

        What about the parallel (time-wise) of Daniel 7:27 [following verse 25's very specific time frame (2nd half of future trib)] "...the greatness of the kingdom UNDER the whole heaven... whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and ALL dominions shall serve and obey him."

        Comment


        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

          Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
          I'm confused don't all members of the NC live peacfully in the promised land according to the article. Just trying make sure I get what you're saying, do you believe what is written in that article is an accurate representation of your views?
          Where do you see that in that article?

          Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
          I'm confused don't all members of the NC live peacfully in the promised land according to the article. Just trying make sure I get what you're saying, do you believe what is written in that article is an accurate representation of your views?
          Where do you see that in that article?
          “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

          מקום כניעה סך הכל

          Comment


          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

            Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
            Where do you see that in that article?
            quoted it before but I guess i'll bold it for you. Quote https://www.gotquestions.org/new-covenant.html The New Covenant was originally given to Israel and includes a promise of fruitfulness, blessing, and a peaceful existence in the Promised Land.

            Thanks, DWM for pointing out the correct link

            Comment


            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

              Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
              I quoted it before but I guess i'll bold it for you. Quote https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-scholar.html The New Covenant was originally given to Israel and includes a promise of fruitfulness, blessing, and a peaceful existence in the Promised Land.
              Yes, the sentence does state that (I see)... at the link, however here in your post you have provided the wrong link. . This is the earlier one that you mean: https://www.gotquestions.org/new-covenant.html

              Comment


              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                I'm confused don't all members of the NC live peacfully in the promised land according to the article. Just trying make sure I get what you're saying, do you believe what is written in that article is an accurate representation of your views?
                Firstly and foremost, we can’t overlook the context of when scripture was written and to whom. This regathering Ezekiel speaks of has already happened.

                https://www.ad70.com/writing/article...s/who_are.html

                Snip >>>>One of the most common assertions of the premillennial dispensationalist today is that the formation of the State of Israel in 1948 is proof that the Jews are still “God’s Chosen People,” and that He still has prophetic plans for them. (This has been asserted more vigorously than ever due to the recent hostilities in the Middle East). It is claimed that God was at work bringing the Jews back to their “ancient homeland,” and that they have a Biblical right to claim Palestine as their own.[9] Are these claims correct? Was the formation of the State of Israel evidence of God’s blessing? Of God’s election?

                Just what Scriptures do dispensationalists use to support these claims? How do they come to their conclusions? As you may know already, the dispensationalist uses what he calls a “literal hermeneutic.” That is, he claims to interpret the words of the Bible at face value, understanding them in their “normal,” everyday usage and meaning.[10] This extremely literal hermeneutic is then used to “interpret” the prophecies of the Old Testament that speak of the return of God’s people to the Holy Land. However, this literalism is also used as an excuse to ignore the plain reinterpretation by the New Testament writers of these very same prophecies. Even when the inspired writers of the N.T. give a meaning to the O.T. prophecies other than a “literal” one, the dispensationalist will say that this is not the complete meaning, and that these prophecies “remain to be realized for Israel.”[11]

                One of the Scriptures the dispensationalist claims was fulfilled by the 1948 formation of the State of Israel is found in Ezekiel 36-37. This prophecy was given to Ezekiel during the Babylonian captivity (Ezek. 1:1-2), and foretold the eventual return of Israel to their land. Tied in with this prophecy was the prediction of the coming Messiah (Ezek. 37:24), and the inauguration of the New Covenant (Ezek. 37:26-28).

                As we know from both secular history and the New Testament, the people did return to the land and the Messiah did come and establish the New Covenant (Mt. 26:28). Despite this, dispensationalists deny fulfillment of either of these prophecies, saying they found only a “partial fulfillment” in Israel’s return and Christ’s first advent.[12] They further allege that the regathering of Jews to form the current State of Israel is part of the final fulfillment. They say the blessings of the “Palestinian Covenant” are only now coming into existence. The promises of such passages as Deut. 30 are touted as “Scriptural basis” for Israel’s regathering.[13] How should we answer such claims?
                “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

                מקום כניעה סך הכל

                Comment


                • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                  Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
                  [forgot to add] ...and the parallels in Matthew 26:29 "UNTIL that day when I drink it NEW WITH [G3326 - meta - accompanying] YOU in my Father's kingdom."
                  ...and Matthew 19:28 "when [compare "when," in Matthew 25:31-34]… ye also shall sit upon 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel."
                  If you are arguing that the New Covenant is still in the future, you are wrong.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                    How about Ezekiel 39:7-13 [bsb] ? (was this in past history?) -

                    7 So I will make My holy name known among My people Israel and will no longer allow it to be profaned. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel. 8 Yes, it is coming, and it will surely happen, declares the Lord GOD. This is the day of which I have spoken.
                    9 Then those who dwell in the cities of Israel will go out, kindle fires, and burn the weapons—the bucklers and shields, the bows and arrows, the clubs and spears. For seven years they will use them for fuel. 10 They will not gather wood from the countryside or cut it from the forests, for they will use the weapons for fuel. They will loot those who looted them and plunder those who plundered them, declares the Lord GOD.
                    11 And on/IN THAT DAY I will give Gog a burial place in Israel, the Valley of the Travelers, east of the Sea. It will block those who travel through, because Gog and all his hordes will be buried there. So it will be called the Valley of Hamon-gog. 12 For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them in order to cleanse the land. 13 All the people of the land will bury them and will be renowned for it on the day I display My glory, declares the Lord GOD.



                    [my view is that this is part of the "Second SEAL Wars" in the future 7-yr tribulation period (AFTER our Rapture [which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body"]), and is pictured in "type" when in Genesis 45:1 states (of Joseph) in the second year of his "seven year famine," with "yet 5 years" remaining, "there STOOD NO MAN WITH HIM, while Joseph made himself known UNTO HIS BRETHREN"--"SO [in this way] WILL *I* make my holy name known in the midst of MY PEOPLE ISRAEL..." Ezek29:7 (note: "MY PEOPLE ISRAEL" as we see this very distinction between Romans 9:26/Hosea 1:10 [regarding Israel] and that of Romans 9:25/Hosea 2:23b [regarding the Gentiles], and the precise wording in verse 26 saying, "AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS, that in the place where it was SAID UNTO THEM, YE are NOT My people; there SHALL THEY be called the children of the living God" [this portion can only be speaking of the ones to whom it was actually "SAID UNTO THEM," which was "Israel" [not the Gentiles, which is the other set of verses]); note the distinctions among the phrases "the Jews, the Gentiles, and the church of God" (these 3, and their "correctly apportioned" applications...)]

                    Comment


                    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                      If you are arguing that the New Covenant is still in the future, you are wrong.
                      I'm asking you to comment (with your view) on all of the posts I recently made (with your explanations instead). Thanks.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                        Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
                        How about Ezekiel 39:7-13 [bsb] ? (was this in past history?) -

                        7 So I will make My holy name known among My people Israel and will no longer allow it to be profaned. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel. 8 Yes, it is coming, and it will surely happen, declares the Lord GOD. This is the day of which I have spoken.
                        9 Then those who dwell in the cities of Israel will go out, kindle fires, and burn the weapons—the bucklers and shields, the bows and arrows, the clubs and spears. For seven years they will use them for fuel. 10 They will not gather wood from the countryside or cut it from the forests, for they will use the weapons for fuel. They will loot those who looted them and plunder those who plundered them, declares the Lord GOD.
                        11 And on/IN THAT DAY I will give Gog a burial place in Israel, the Valley of the Travelers, east of the Sea. It will block those who travel through, because Gog and all his hordes will be buried there. So it will be called the Valley of Hamon-gog. 12 For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them in order to cleanse the land. 13 All the people of the land will bury them and will be renowned for it on the day I display My glory, declares the Lord GOD.



                        [my view is that this is part of the "Second SEAL Wars" in the future 7-yr tribulation period (AFTER our Rapture [which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body"]), and is pictured in "type" when in Genesis 45:1 states (of Joseph) in the second year of his "seven year famine," with "yet 5 years" remaining, "there STOOD NO MAN WITH HIM, while Joseph made himself known UNTO HIS BRETHREN"--"SO [in this way] WILL *I* make my holy name known in the midst of MY PEOPLE ISRAEL..." Ezek29:7 (note: "MY PEOPLE ISRAEL" as we see this very distinction between Romans 9:26/Hosea 1:10 [regarding Israel] and that of Romans 9:25/Hosea 2:23b [regarding the Gentiles], and the precise wording in verse 26 saying, "AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS, that in the place where it was SAID UNTO THEM, YE are NOT My people; there SHALL THEY be called the children of the living God" [this portion can only be speaking of the ones to whom it was actually "SAID UNTO THEM," which was "Israel" [not the Gentiles, which is the other set of verses]); note the distinctions among the phrases "the Jews, the Gentiles, and the church of God" (these 3, and their "correctly apportioned" applications...)]
                        Yes past, using apocalyptic language. ( which contain hyperbole ) same as the BOR.

                        Here is a really neat article showing a different side of things, ( how this connects to the time period when written.

                        As a pp ( partial preterest ) this makes much sense to me. Even the abstract is neat. Check it out with a open heart.

                        https://revelationrevolution.org/eze...st-commentary/
                        “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

                        מקום כניעה סך הכל

                        Comment


                        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                          3. But verses 26-27 speak of the abominable nations who will not be allowed in.
                          Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
                          Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

                          That doesn't equate to wicked people still being alive on the earth. All the wicked are cast into the LOF before the NJ even comes down. They cannot enter NJ because they are in the LOF.

                          Rev 21-22 is LONG after the end of the Millennium.
                          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                            Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                            You are making the wrong assumption that Revelation is in chronology where chapter 21 comes after 20 and vice versa. But this is not the case. Note that the GWTJ takes place in Rev 20:11-14? v-15 "And whosoever is not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" ? If your chronology is right, then the wicked called the "nations" will no longer be on earth, right?
                            The LOF is "in" the Earth according to scripture...perhaps that's a dimensional thing, but it is located Earthward.

                            But they are clearly still present after the NJ has come down to earth.

                            Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
                            Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
                            This doesn't say they are freely wandering around. All it says is they are not in the city. Rev 20 tells us where they are.

                            Remember that I'm just responding to your timeline where the wicked and the nations who reject God are judged in the GWT and ceases to exist from Rev 20:15. So if chronology is in place, then explain the verses above (outside Rev 20:15) that reference the wicked that supposedly doesn't exist anymore?
                            Rev 21, 22 do not state where the wicked are. They state where they aren't. Neither state they exist either. It's just a statement to assure the readers that this city will not be like normal cities with filth and wicked people. To assume wicked people are alive and doing wicked things like normal outside the walls of the NJ is reading into the verse what it doesn't say. Rev 19-22 are chronological in nature
                            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              You are making the wrong assumption that Revelation is in chronology where chapter 21 comes after 20 and vice versa.
                              I have another way to prove you wrong. Try to keep an open mind on this:

                              Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
                              Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

                              If this is at the timeframe of the MK then there are no more seas.

                              Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
                              Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
                              Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
                              Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
                              Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
                              Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
                              Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


                              So how is the sea giving up the dead if there are no seas? This proves Chronology that seas existed at the GWTJ then afterward in the new Earth John tells us seas no longer exist. That also proves that Rev 21-22 cannot be during the MK timeframe since seas still exist in that timeframe.

                              It's these little details that are usually not noticed but as tiny as they are, they are sometimes the most important parts of scripture.
                              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                                Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
                                Sure it does.




                                The NC has not ended yet, it will at the end of the world I would suppose.
                                No, it is everlasting.

                                Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

                                We are in the millennial Kingdom now, the Gospel age.
                                The MK hasn't started yet and is not the gospel age. Rev 19-20 prove the MK doesn't start until Jesus has returned and he hasn't returned yet.
                                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                                Comment

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