Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Nothing i Proffer is of value to you anyway, everytime I give my opinion or try to show you something you claim "its irrelevant" or that you simply cannot grasp the concept. Personally i'm fine with it because you seem to do it to everyone. For example you can't grasp the concept that the KoG and the KoH are different, you just ignore my position is possible as a form of argument. Then you offer your own position as a contrast and claim your personal position is a Fact and that you "proved it". Then you tell us to refer to where you offered your opinion as proof. Notice i never do this... I never claim what I personally believe is a Fact or that I have proved anything. I just try to show you what I believe, which you clearly believe is wrong on all accounts . When that is inadequate( which it usually is in your case) i try to offer you scholar level martieral and quotes from other sources to *support* my views. As i said my goal is simply to make you *understand* my position, whether you agree or not to me does not matter. Your goal here seems to be to *Prove* that you're right. Which is why you constantly say your opinions are *proofs*.

    Then you claim anyone who doesn't agree with what you believe - Lacks understanding, or needs more study, or that what they said "makes no sense" or that they're wrong. Now you're trotting out one of my favorites that you do the old - refer to what i said in the past like you're doing in post 497.

    Sorry but your proof is inadequete to me I do not believe the line of reasoning you present in post 497 is the message John is conveying in those passages. I do not agree with your proof or your reasoning.
    For me, the Koh and KoG are one and the same. That is my position and others can also take a stand too.

    Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    You have made this claim that I attack you in the past, but everytime you make this claim you are unable to show any examples or any proof. Just this one time show me one example of what you mean when you say I personally Attack you. You accused me of doing this and now i'm asking for proof, or withdraw this slander against me, please show me and example were I attack your person so that i may correct it.
    I have better things to do with my time and won't indulge you. If you're in doubt, read your posts to me.

    Comment


    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

      Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
      I'm pointing out the words "until it be fulfilled in..."

      What is this referring to?
      Until what is fulfilled, the New Covenant?
      If that's what you're referring to, then see:

      Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

      Comment


      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

        Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
        Of course He will rule, He rules now. Do you mean the literal throne of David that existed thousands of years ago or the spiritual throne of David that exists today? If you mean in a literal sense, as the dispensationalists do, ( Jesus actually living in the holy land for a thousand years as a ruler) no, I don’t think scripture teaches this.
        When did David have a Spiritual throne? What do you think is the purpose in the bible of the genealogy? Do you think Jesus was born in the line of David for a purpose?

        Comment


        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

          Originally posted by Noeb View Post
          OK. Why would the NC end?

          I don’t mean end per say, bad wording on my part. The NC is everlasting for sure from humanities perspective. What I am trying to say is that once the end of the world happens, judgement, sentencing, glorified bodies, Heaven, will we still be under the NC or will the new reality be fully reset?. At this point everything is finished and complete, fully fulfilled and eternity begins. Will we remember the former things or will there be a full reset? Hard to explain what I am thinking. Either way it’s not important what I think. The NC is everlasting. Does this clarify?
          “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

          מקום כניעה סך הכל

          Comment


          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

            Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
            For me, the Koh and KoG are one and the same. That is my position and others can also take a stand too.
            I never tried to change this position of yours, I even tried not to go down this rabbit hole, but you asked me specific questions which i believe i addressed honestly.






            Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
            I have better things to do with my time and won't indulge you. If you're in doubt, read your posts to me.

            The only thing I doubted was that you would actually come up with real proof( I do my best to be polite). But I shouldn't have doubted.

            Comment


            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

              Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
              When did David have a Spiritual throne? What do you think is the purpose in the bible of the genealogy? Do you think Jesus was born in the line of David for a purpose?

              Do you know what types and shadows are?
              “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

              מקום כניעה סך הכל

              Comment


              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                You used to have a different interpretation personally! Like i said i literally watched you switch your position on this to that of FHG and personally it saddened me a lot, this line or reasoning is very unessasary. Just ask yourself these question when reading this passage.

                And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven[b] and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
                Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

                Question 1. Did every single person who lived in the nations at the 4 corners of the Earth join Satans army?

                Question 2. Is there any mention of Any of those Nations being destroyed?

                Question 3. Is there any mention of the *Living* being judged during the GWTJ?

                Once you asnwer those questions its easy to understand that those other nations were not destroyed and who the people left outside of the NJ are.

                This is just 1 Altenative explanation.
                With regards to when the NHNE will be ushered in, I don't agree with FHG. We have different timelines for its fulfilment. You've obviously been away for a while and only just got back and consequently not sure of what's what anymore, hence your false claim that supposedly "saddens you".

                We are clearly arguing at cross purposes because I can't figure out your questions 1-3 above?

                Comment


                • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                  Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
                  My apologies, Trivalee, I had indeed overlooked this post (I'm not sure what that happens to me a lot ).

                  Okay, so let me pose this question like this... Compare the following passages and let me know if you see it as parallel:

                  --Revelation 19:19-21 / 16:14-16 / Rev20:5a (at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth [which, in your view is also "when" our Rapture takes place; not my view, for the readers]); parallel (time-wise) to...

                  --Isaiah 24:21-22[23] with its TWO "PUNISH" words, separated by the time period labeled there as "and AFTER MANY DAYS"... So, "['SHALL PUNISH" v.21] 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and AFTER MANY DAYS shall they BE PUNISHED" (which phrase "and after MANY DAYS," I believe refers to the earthly MK TIME PERIOD which they will not be present to enjoy and thereafter at the GWTj the final sentence be carried out: "shall they BE PUNISHED" [I'm NOT suggesting that the first "PUNISH" word in verse 21 is not referring to "death," as is referred to in Rev19:21 "and the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse..."]). Who do you believe this speaks of, where it says "and the remnant were slain"? (do you believe this refers solely to one location on the earth, say, perhaps Jerusalem, and that all other areas of the earth will remain unaffected by His "return" to the earth?)

                  Revelation 19:15b says "and he shall rule [/shepherd (same word as in Rev7:15-17, in v.17 translated as "feed" there [parallel Isa49:10 an earthly MK passage])] them [the nations] with a rod [sceptre] of iron [righteousness and strength]" [comp. also Heb1:8 "thy sceptre"; and 1Cor15:25-28 "For he must reign..."]


                  So you are saying that at the time of His Second Coming to the earth (as in the above passages), which is when you believe the Rapture takes place, that there WILL be "unbelievers" who will proceed to "ENTER" into that time period (the earthly MK), have I grasped your view correctly?

                  What about the parallel (time-wise) of Daniel 7:27 [following verse 25's very specific time frame (2nd half of future trib)] "...the greatness of the kingdom UNDER the whole heaven... whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and ALL dominions shall serve and obey him."
                  1. If you are arguing that only the saved will enter the MK, then you have to explain who the "nations" are whom we are told in Zech 14:16-17 are mandated to come to Jerusalem once a year to worship the Lord and should any fail, they will suffer drought as punishment?

                  2. If you are arguing that only the saved will survive to enter the MK, then explain who the "nations" are that are barred from entering the New Jerusalem Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without/outside the city are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

                  3. I do hope you are not confusing the holy city where the Lord reigns with his saints with the rest of the world where the unsaved live?

                  Comment


                  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                    Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
                    Do you know what types and shadows are?
                    Yes, i do. I just wonder why you don't believe it is possible that Jesus would physically Rule on Earth as King personally i just think that this world is a Shadow of what that would like.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                      Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
                      Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

                      That doesn't equate to wicked people still being alive on the earth. All the wicked are cast into the LOF before the NJ even comes down. They cannot enter NJ because they are in the LOF.

                      Rev 21-22 is LONG after the end of the Millennium.
                      I made a mistake on Rev 21:21-26. But if the NJ comes down after the GWTJ when all the wicked have been judged and cast into the lake of fire, who then are the "dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers and idolaters who are *outside* the city, ie. NJ?

                      Comment


                      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                        I made a mistake on Rev 21:21-26. But if the NJ comes down after the GWTJ when all the wicked have been judged and cast into the lake of fire, who then are the "dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers and idolaters who are *outside* the city, ie. NJ?
                        Why do you think they must be outside the city in/on the new earth? Why can they not be outside in the pool of fire?

                        Comment


                        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                          Trivalee, the "saints" who ENTER the MK time period will be mortals (having endured unto the end of the trib) capable of bearing children. Their children will not be "born automatically righteous/saved" (and over the course of that 1000 years, I should think many children and grandchildren will be "born" to them). So this in Zechariah 14 is supplying the "rule" for the entire time period. Verse 16 says "every one who is left of all the nations" (meaning, like the Sheep of the nations who will enter that time period [i.e. "the righteous"/"saints"]), but verse 16 is covering all who will ever come to exist within that time period (meaning, all those born to them, throughout). ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come [etc]" passages refer to His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly MK age [not our Rapture, per context], so in even just those passages we can see what will take place at that point in the chronology (Matthew 25:31-34, for example; Matthew 13:30,39,40,49-50 for another example [which passage takes place in the EXACT OPPOSITE SEQUENCE as that of our Rapture, by the way]… many more, like Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" THEN the meal; and Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN" etc...)

                          Comment


                          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                            ^ Sorry, forgot to use the quoting feature (my post was in response to this):

                            Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                            1. If you are arguing that only the saved will enter the MK, then you have to explain who the "nations" are whom we are told in Zech 14:16-17 are mandated to come to Jerusalem once a year to worship the Lord and should any fail, they will suffer drought as punishment?

                            Comment


                            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                              Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                              The LOF is "in" the Earth according to scripture...perhaps that's a dimensional thing, but it is located Earthward.
                              And your point is? Have you forgotten that even the Godhead will come to earth, so where do want the LoF to be?

                              This doesn't say they are freely wandering around. All it says is they are not in the city. Rev 20 tells us where they are.
                              If they are safely contained in the LoF, then Rev 22:15 would be superfluous, don't you agree?

                              Rev 21, 22 do not state where the wicked are. They state where they aren't. Neither state they exist either. It's just a statement to assure the readers that this city will not be like normal cities with filth and wicked people. To assume wicked people are alive and doing wicked things like normal outside the walls of the NJ is reading into the verse what it doesn't say. Rev 19-22 are chronological in nature
                              The wicked are obviously not yet judged on the GWTJ and you'll have serious problems proving they are. I just pointed out that if they "didn't exist" as you claim, the scripture wouldn't have warned in Rev 22:15 that they are OUTSIDE the city. This is not me making an assumption, it is what the Bible says. On the other hand, you're claiming the text doesn't say what it says because it doesn't agree with you.

                              If Rev 19-22 are chronological, then the rest of Revelation should equally be assumed as the same.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                                I have another way to prove you wrong. Try to keep an open mind on this:

                                Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
                                Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

                                If this is at the timeframe of the MK then there are no more seas.

                                Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
                                Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
                                Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
                                Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
                                Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
                                Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
                                Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


                                So how is the sea giving up the dead if there are no seas? This proves Chronology that seas existed at the GWTJ then afterward in the new Earth John tells us seas no longer exist. That also proves that Rev 21-22 cannot be during the MK timeframe since seas still exist in that timeframe.

                                It's these little details that are usually not noticed but as tiny as they are, they are sometimes the most important parts of scripture.
                                1. First, the holy city is not the same as the NHNE. Hope you agree?
                                2. The holy city comes down at the beginning of the 1000 year rule.
                                3. At the end of the MK, the GWTJ takes place. After that, the NHNE replaces the old.

                                Throughout Revelation, John's account goes back and forth, it makes zero sense to claim that this tradition is suddenly broken from chapters 19-22 with passages referring to the wicked clearly available. You asked me to keep an open mind, I did. But can you?

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X