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Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

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  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    That's what I want to know? If the bible doesn't teach that the Messiah is the King of Israel what exactly does it teach? When the Jews say they expected "Messiah" were they all confused about him being the King?
    Jesus IS the King of Israel, but we need to define what exactly “Israel” is.... I don’t believe that scripture teaches that all “Israel” is actually “Israel”. Spiritual Israel is His true quarry ( those who believe by faith in all He’s done ) the genetics no longer play a role that they once did... even in the OT, God defined what “True Israel” is.

    New American Standard Bible
    Then the Lord said, "Because this people draw near with their words And honor Me with their lip service, But they remove their hearts far from Me, And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote
    They were confused because they were not seeking what God was providing/wanting.

    They wanted physical, He wanted spiritual.
    They wanted a return to the glory days, when God was actually seeking a contrite heart, not merely lips that honour....

    Does any of this make sense or is it completely foreign?

    Dispensationalists have put too much weight in the physical aspec at the expense of the spiritual, when Christ sees the spiritual.

    Even the NT confirms this. Do people really know the LORD? As we know, many say they do, but many do not.
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

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    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

      Matthew 19:28 -

      And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory [compare Mt25:31-34 "when"], ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judgING the twelve tribes of Israel.


      Luke 22:30 -

      That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judgING the twelve tribes of Israel.

      Comment


      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
        Read the parable again and note the grammar "the kingdom of heaven is likened to". The text didn't say the earth is the Koh, it is a comparison.
        Very good. God uses natural, to teach the supernatural. It's like in John 15 when Jesus spoke of the vine and the branches. We are branches, but not literally.
        Matt 9:13
        13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
        NASU

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        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

          Romans 11:25-29 -

          25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in [G1525 - eiselthē ].
          26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
          27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
          28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
          29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance [/irrevocable].


          [see also Romans 11:15 "...what shall the receiving of them be but LIFE FROM THE DEAD," compare with the parallels of Hosea 5:15-6:3; Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23; Daniel 12:1-4 (distinct from that of Dan12:13); Isaiah 26:16-21 (note the "birth PANGS"); John 6:39 (distinct from verse 40!); etc... where that which pertain to "Israel" and their future... as LIKENED UNTO a "resurrection" (but this is not referring to a physical resurrection from a previously-physically-dead place, but from "the graveyard of nations" where SCATTERED (Lk21:24a, and other OT passages like "I will sow her unto me in the earth" and other "scatter" passages; etc...)]

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          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

            ^ meant to add a portion of the Hosea 5:15 verse I mentioned (so will place it here instead, lacking the EDIT feature):

            Berean Study Bible
            Then I will return to My place until they admit their guilt and seek My face; in their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”

            New American Standard Bible
            I will go away and return to My place Until they acknowledge their guilt and seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.

            King James Bible
            I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

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            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
              you claim that the nation that will be bear fruit is Israel?
              Of course. John 15:16 ...."that your fruit remain" ....the House of God is built on the foundation of the apostles......The first church was Israeli.

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              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                I made a mistake on Rev 21:21-26. But if the NJ comes down after the GWTJ when all the wicked have been judged and cast into the lake of fire, who then are the "dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers and idolaters who are *outside* the city, ie. NJ?
                They are the ones in the LOF, which is outside of the city.
                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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                • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  Spiritualism? You lost me...
                  Never had you. You can't pick and choose which parts of a parable the kingdom is like. It is like every part of the parable. There's no question. People that spiritualize scripture have a habit of picking and choosing like you did. It leads to very bad theology. They might say....the NJ comes down during the MK because it fits their spiritualized pick and choose theology, even though we have scripture that makes it abundantly clear the NJ does not come for the MK.

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                  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                    And your point is? Have you forgotten that even the Godhead will come to earth, so where do want the LoF to be?
                    The LOF is within the Earth and yes the Godhead will be here as well.


                    If they are safely contained in the LoF, then Rev 22:15 would be superfluous, don't you agree?
                    No. I find it very important to assure the readers that this city will not contain anything evil unlike all cities people knew of previously.


                    The wicked are obviously not yet judged on the GWTJ and you'll have serious problems proving they are.
                    I can't believe you just said that. The wicked are judged at the GWTJ that's the whole purpose of it.

                    I just pointed out that if they "didn't exist" as you claim, the scripture wouldn't have warned in Rev 22:15 that they are OUTSIDE the city.
                    I only meant they don't exist like regular people will...you act as if the wicked live in camps outside the walls of the NJ but that isn't true. They all are in the LOF.

                    This is not me making an assumption, it is what the Bible says. On the other hand, you're claiming the text doesn't say what it says because it doesn't agree with you.
                    There is no disagreement. You are merely misunderstanding what it means to be outside of the city.

                    If Rev 19-22 are chronological, then the rest of Revelation should equally be assumed as the same.
                    That's very bad logic. Chronology can be proven not just assumed. Rev is not very chronological but in places it is like the last 4 chapters and it's easy to prove. The beast and FP being in the LOF already in Rev 20 shows that Rev 19 is before rev 20 because in 19 they are cast into the LOF. Then we know Rev 21 is after Rev 20 because in Rev 20 seas still exist yet in Rev 21 we are told they no longer exist...and I shouldn't have to prove that Rev 22 comes after Rev 21 since it is the ending chapter and the wording supports that.
                    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                      Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
                      Ya, me to.
                      Because you spiritualize just about everything.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                        Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                        Very good. God uses natural, to teach the supernatural. It's like in John 15 when Jesus spoke of the vine and the branches. We are branches, but not literally.
                        Where did Jesus say we are likened to branches? You have no premise. Since Jesus is describing where God decided to have his kingdom with man, that is what he is describing. There's nothing supernatural about wheat and tare growing up together on earth.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                          1. First, the holy city is not the same as the NHNE. Hope you agree?
                          Of course but why even bring up something so obvious? The city simply comes down from heaven after the NHNE has begun.

                          2. The holy city comes down at the beginning of the 1000 year rule.
                          False. No scripture supports that and the only scripture that shows it coming down is found long after the thousand years has ended.

                          3. At the end of the MK, the GWTJ takes place. After that, the NHNE replaces the old.
                          No. The MK is over before the GWTJ happens. It does not happen at the end of the MK. The rest is correct but you have the timing of the NJ wrong.


                          Throughout Revelation, John's account goes back and forth, it makes zero sense to claim that this tradition is suddenly broken from chapters 19-22 with passages referring to the wicked clearly available. You asked me to keep an open mind, I did. But can you?
                          My mind is open but what is taught must match scripture. If I teach that 1 plus 1 is 3, will you have an open mind or will you see my error and try to show me? Your error is when the NJ comes down. There is also no break in "tradition" for 4 chapters to be in chronological order. The first 6 are, and possibly even up to chp 10. The jumpy chronology is found in chapters 11-18.
                          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                            Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                            Because you spiritualize just about everything.
                            Not really, only where ist called for. Could you explain more on what you see as error regarding this?

                            I am open to dialog.
                            “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

                            מקום כניעה סך הכל

                            Comment


                            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              It comes down at the start of the MK.
                              Impossible. The sea still exists during the MK but NJ will not come here until there is no more sea.

                              Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
                              Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
                              Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
                              Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

                              There's also no more death or pain after NJ arrives. Any deaths or pain in the MK or just after when the nations surround old Jerusalem?
                              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                                Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                                Where did Jesus say we are likened to branches? You have no premise. Since Jesus is describing where God decided to have his kingdom with man, that is what he is describing. There's nothing supernatural about wheat and tare growing up together on earth.
                                John 5:15 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

                                Being saved is supernatural. Being wheat is supernatural. Being a branch in Jesus (the vine) is supernatural.
                                Matt 9:13
                                13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                                NASU

                                Comment

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