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  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    EDITING: "So I believe that the "until / till" correlates [fairly closely] with the "UNTIL" of Romans 11:25 ("blindness [/hardening G4457]... UNTIL") and that point (being earlier) is at or following the "BE COME IN [G1525]" part of that verse (a specific "purpose" having been completed, or put into play, if you will)


    [here's what was cut off from my post] note: I believe there is a distinction between the phrases "the FULNESS of the Gentiles" and "the TIMES of the Gentiles" (the latter referring to "Gentile domination over Israel," think: Neb's statue/image dream and his being the "head of gold" and which started in 606bc and will run clear to END of trib, per Rev11:2 [Lk21:24b] (I had more but don't wanna lose this much, lol)

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    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
      Learn to read? That's rich coming from you. Let others figure out who is right.
      On person already agreed with me. I haven;t seen anyone agree with you. Shouldn't be hard to figure out.....

      23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority? 24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. 25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? 26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet. 27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

      28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. 29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. 30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. 31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. 32For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

      33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

      42 J esus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

      43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

      45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.


      Acts 4:5 And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes, 6 And Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this? 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

      Why would anyone think Jesus was talking about anyone else?

      One person already....

      Comment


      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
        Rev 22:15 is BEFORE the GWTJ and LoF.
        No it's not...All of Rev 21 and 22 chronologically are after the GWTJ and the LOF.
        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

        Comment


        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post



          I see you've already made up your mind. So good luck.
          You have consistently refused to address the facts as to how it can be proven that Rev 19-22 are chronological.

          Rev is not very chronological but in places it is like the last 4 chapters and it's easy to prove. The beast and FP being in the LOF already in Rev 20 shows that Rev 19 is before rev 20 because in 19 they are cast into the LOF. Then we know Rev 21 is after Rev 20 because in Rev 20 seas still exist yet in Rev 21 we are told they no longer exist...and I shouldn't have to prove that Rev 22 comes after Rev 21 since it is the ending chapter and the wording supports that.

          Can you explain the sea existing when it isn't supposed to? If you are right, Rev 20 cannot mention the sea because it shopuldn't exist if Rev 21 is before the GWTJ.
          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

          Comment


          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

            Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

            And you got it right, I suppose?

            We shall see. Tell us, when does death stop existing?

            Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
            Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
            Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
            Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
            Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

            You say these verses are at the start of the MK? How can death stop existing before these verses:

            Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

            These people didn't die?

            Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
            Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
            Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

            That's the second death.

            How can death have stopped existing at the start of the MK if death obviously still exists after the MK ended?

            Do you believe anyone dies during the MK? If so, how can you place Rev 21:4 at the start of the MK?

            Do you now see why I have been disagreeing with you on this? I'm trying to help but if you can't see how placing Rev 21 at the start of the MK is wrong after this then I cannot help any further at this time.
            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

            Comment


            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

              One of the contentions that the (new) covenant now people have made, really is a totally baseless claim. Whay is that? That the new covenant was both initiated and implemented at the cross. The Abrahamic covenant:

              *[[Gen 17:8]] KJV* And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

              Is there any doubt that God made this covenant worth Abraham? But what does it say? God said "I will give this land TO YOU and your descendents FOR AN EVERLASTING POSSESSION.

              *[[Heb 11:8]] KJV* By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

              Both Gen 17 and Heb 11 both confirm that the promised inheritance was and has not been given. I don't see how anyone could argue against the initiation of the Abrahamic covenant some 3900+ years ago, with an implementation that is still yet future. So why would the NC not be subject to the same principle?

              Blessings
              The PuP

              One of the contentions that the (new) covenant now people have made, really is a totally baseless claim. Whay is that? That the new covenant was both initiated and implemented at the cross. The Abrahamic covenant:

              *[[Gen 17:8]] KJV* And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

              Is there any doubt that God made this covenant worth Abraham? But what does it say? God said "I will give this land TO YOU and your descendents FOR AN EVERLASTING POSSESSION.

              *[[Heb 11:8]] KJV* By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

              Both Gen 17 and Heb 11 both confirm that the promised inheritance was and has not been given. I don't see how anyone could argue against the initiation of the Abrahamic covenant some 3900+ years ago, with an implementation that is still yet future. So why would the NC not be subject to the same principle?

              Blessings
              The PuP

              Comment


              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                One of the contentions that the (new) covenant now people have made, really is a totally baseless claim. Whay is that? That the new covenant was both initiated and implemented at the cross. The Abrahamic covenant:

                *[[Gen 17:8]] KJV* And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

                Is there any doubt that God made this covenant worth Abraham? But what does it say? God said "I will give this land TO YOU and your descendents FOR AN EVERLASTING POSSESSION.

                *[[Heb 11:8]] KJV* By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

                Both Gen 17 and Heb 11 both confirm that the promised inheritance was and has not been given. I don't see how anyone could argue against the initiation of the Abrahamic covenant some 3900+ years ago, with an implementation that is still yet future. So why would the NC not be subject to the same principle?

                Blessings
                The PuP

                One of the contentions that the (new) covenant now people have made, really is a totally baseless claim. Whay is that? That the new covenant was both initiated and implemented at the cross. The Abrahamic covenant:

                *[[Gen 17:8]] KJV* And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

                Is there any doubt that God made this covenant worth Abraham? But what does it say? God said "I will give this land TO YOU and your descendents FOR AN EVERLASTING POSSESSION.

                *[[Heb 11:8]] KJV* By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

                Both Gen 17 and Heb 11 both confirm that the promised inheritance was and has not been given. I don't see how anyone could argue against the initiation of the Abrahamic covenant some 3900+ years ago, with an implementation that is still yet future. So why would the NC not be subject to the same principle?

                Blessings
                The PuP
                In the new covenant we have an everlasting land promise that is the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham I believe.

                Joh 14:2 There are many rooms in my Father's house, and I am going to prepare a place for you. I would not tell you this if it were not so.
                Joh 14:3 And after I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to myself, so that you will be where I am.

                Comment


                • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                  Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                  they're Israel
                  .
                  Once again, I give up.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                    Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                    So we only count believing Jews as Israel when it's convenient for our doctrine and whether or not we want to argue with someone on the internet?
                    The problem is your inability to grasp what the text means in full. My case is very simple, the kingdom will be taken from those of Israel who don't believe and given to Gentiles who believe. But the Jews who believed e.g. the Apostles and all coverts since the 1st century, their place in the kingdom is guaranteed.

                    Your position is "it's Israel" without defining who and who in Israel benefit or rejected. If you get this, then the problem is solved.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                      Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                      In the new covenant we have an everlasting land promise that is the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham I believe.

                      Joh 14:2 There are many rooms in my Father's house, and I am going to prepare a place for you. I would not tell you this if it were not so.
                      Joh 14:3 And after I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to myself, so that you will be where I am.
                      At the very least, 1900+ years passed after the covenant, before the promised "Seed" of Christ came. And even then this inheritance promised to Christ, the whole land of Canaan, is still called the promise that is to come.

                      Verse list:
                      Gen 17:7-8 KJV And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and THY SEED after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of CANAAN, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
                      Gal 3:16-18 KJV Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to THY SEED, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

                      It just goes to show that the provisions of a covenant don't get implemented when the covenant is initiated. God promised to make the inheritors of the land innumerable. The same goes for us who are in Christ, that we too, are inheritors, joint heirs with Christ of the promise made to Abraham.

                      Blessings
                      The PuP

                      Comment


                      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                        The problem is your inability to grasp what the text means in full.
                        I posted the text and Acts 4 and the text is very plain and simple to understand. There is no "what it means in full" available.


                        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                        My case is very simple, the kingdom will be taken from those of Israel who don't believe
                        But Jesus and Peter weren't talking to all Israel they were talking to leadership.


                        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                        and given to Gentiles who believe.
                        Gentiles didn't get in because the leaders of Israel rejected Christ. See your problem here? Gentiles were always going to be included and the references to this do not indicate it is because leadership rejected Christ.


                        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                        But the Jews who believed e.g. the Apostles and all coverts since the 1st century, their place in the kingdom is guaranteed.
                        The kingdom is not being taken from those that do not believe, they're just not receiving because they are blinded by the god of this world and the veil of the law. It was specifically taken from the leaders Jesus and Peter were speaking to and no one else.


                        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                        Your position is "it's Israel" without defining who and who in Israel benefit or rejected. If you get this, then the problem is solved.
                        Jesus and Peter didn't apply it to anyone other than leadership.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                          Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                          One of the contentions that the (new) covenant now people have made, really is a totally baseless claim. Whay is that? That the new covenant was both initiated and implemented at the cross. The Abrahamic covenant:

                          I don't see how anyone could argue against the initiation of the Abrahamic covenant some 3900+ years ago, with an implementation that is still yet future. So why would the NC not be subject to the same principle?
                          Have all the nations of the earth been blessed?

                          Comment


                          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                            Originally posted by jesuslovesus View Post
                            They are Judged throughout the Millenium. You quoted the Passages within these threads, passages like Rev 19:11 & Rev 20:4-6. Jesus is the righteous Judge over all the Earth along with the Saints.


                            Notice these things.


                            1. Only those who are found written in the Book of Life get to live. Rev 20:15.



                            2. Only those found in the Lambs book of Life get to enter the NJ. Rev 21:27.


                            3. In the NHNE there is NO more Death since it is cast into the LoF. Rev 20:14, Rev 21:4
                            Okay then, how do we account for this little gem in Isaiah:65:17, 20 "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed." Looks like NHNE with people still living.


                            Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                            You have consistently refused to address the facts as to how it can be proven that Rev 19-22 are chronological.

                            Rev is not very chronological but in places it is like the last 4 chapters and it's easy to prove. The beast and FP being in the LOF already in Rev 20 shows that Rev 19 is before rev 20 because in 19 they are cast into the LOF. Then we know Rev 21 is after Rev 20 because in Rev 20 seas still exist yet in Rev 21 we are told they no longer exist...and I shouldn't have to prove that Rev 22 comes after Rev 21 since it is the ending chapter and the wording supports that.

                            Can you explain the sea existing when it isn't supposed to? If you are right, Rev 20 cannot mention the sea because it shopuldn't exist if Rev 21 is before the GWTJ.
                            When we start trying to lay out Revelation in a chronological order, we start to get away from its intended picture. See above ref. to NHNE in Isaiah and quit dwelling on the "no more sea" because it is throwing you off course. The GWTJ is the very last event pictured by the Jewish "Last Great Day" which was the eight day of the Feast of Tabernacles.
                            John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

                            Comment


                            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                              Originally posted by Deade View Post

                              [FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=2][COLOR="#800080"]When we start trying to lay out Revelation in a chronological order, we start to get away from its intended picture.
                              Most of Rev is in chronological order. Only the middle chapters aren't. Like the other poster, you did not address the content of my post. I have presented the facts and no one has yet to address them directly.

                              Originally posted by Deade View Post

                              [FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=2][COLOR="#800080"]When we start trying to lay out Revelation in a chronological order, we start to get away from its intended picture.
                              Most of Rev is in chronological order. Only the middle chapters aren't. Like the other poster, you did not address the content of my post. I have presented the facts and no one has yet to address them directly.
                              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                                Originally posted by Deade View Post
                                [FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=2][COLOR="#800080"]Okay then, how do we account for this little gem in Isaiah:65:17, 20 "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed." Looks like NHNE with people still living.
                                I'm confused what you're saying here, what exactly am I accounting for here?

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