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  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Originally posted by Noeb View Post
    Actually I think you're right. I've never thought about how unjust it would be to allow some non-born again surviving mortals into the MK but not afford the same opportunity to the rest of the dead in the end. Good thing I'm not judge, lol. Thank you for questioning me and getting me to look at this again! So I would say OT/NT 'believers' -first resurrection- everyone else the second, with some to life. Not "all the resurrected for the GWT are cast into the LOF". Thanks again!
    Well I am glad you looked at it again. Look at it some more!! lol I still think we differ in our thinking about it though. I don't think any OT people are in the first resurrection. I think they are after the 1000 years. So I see it a bit different than you. There are no scriptures that say they are part of the first resurrection.

    I think you are thinking the NT believers are in the first resurrection because of the rapture yes? If that is the case you have to remember Paul said “the dead in Christ rise first” then we who remain. So that would point to only NT believers. Right?

    Comment


    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

      Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
      Honestly, I don't know where you find this claim of mine that is supposely "wrong" go read post #659 I never claimed the bold above. Both here and in your orignal reply post you're claiming things I never stated much less "got wrong".
      I've read post #659 where you responded to my question about when the wicked in the MK will be judged? You responded that are judged during the millennium. I was referring to the judgment of their soul but you seemed to focus on the judgment of the flesh.

      At any rate, accept my apologies for the misunderstanding and for quoting you out of context.

      I see no reason to contest your beliefs, if you want an honestly anylasis why I don't agree or alternative renders i'll be happy to submit those otherwise belief what you wish.
      I'm always willing to consider any reasons proffered in support of the assumption that Rev 19-22 are chronological.

      Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
      I know you don't, But I'm still confused as to your belief on this topic. Do you believe the Israelites broke the NC?
      The New Covenant is clearly operative now. It is neither tied to ordinances that could be broken nor limited to Israel.

      Comment


      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

        Originally posted by Noeb View Post
        Your sarcasm leaks from the lunacy in saying Jesus has to figure out who are his in a twinkling of an eye at his appearing. How'd you come up with that?
        Remind me of the post you are referring to? I mean the "twinkling of an eye at his appearing comment." I need to know what I was arguing about to respond accordingly.

        Comment


        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          I've read post #659 where you responded to my question about when the wicked in the MK will be judged? You responded that are judged during the millennium. I was referring to the judgment of their soul but you seemed to focus on the judgment of the flesh.


          At any rate, accept my apologies for the misunderstanding and for quoting you out of context.
          Yea seems like I misunderstood your question. Jesus seems to kill the wicked Kings and their followers at the end of Rev 19, something similar Happens during the Fire from heaven scene in Rev 20. My point here is that in some cases just them dying seems to be enough but it could be argued they are Resurrected for the GWT since they are dead. Maybe something like Matthew 25:31-46 would be more in line to defend the position you thought I was taking but I believe it is a separate topic and my personal beliefs are the matter aren't well reseached.










          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          I'm always willing to consider any reasons proffered in support of the assumption that Rev 19-22 are chronological.
          Start a thread if you'd like, people in this thread already put forth some initial alternatives.






          Honestly, I think this comment goes again the grain of the Message that was being sent in Hebrews if you truly believe that the NC could not be broken what is the point of this passage. But maybe your right because this passage seems to indicate that we are under the blood, and not in the NC like I personally believe.

          Just so you personally understand I believe all those that are saved are under the blood but not currently in the NC. You already know when I believe the NC starts. Just curious how your view fits in this passage.


          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          The New Covenant is clearly operative now. It is neither tied to ordinances that could be broken nor limited to Israel.
          Hebrews 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


          Also, I just want to recap here and ask were your doctrine leads.

          Why do you believe that Israel was kicked out of the Holy land for close to 2000 years?

          Comment


          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

            Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
            It's only an "aside" where something is said that isn't part of the chronology of future or past events. Here is another one:
            Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
            Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
            Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
            Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
            Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

            Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
            Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

            The first 5 verses are chronological and are descriptions of the eternity but in verse 6 scripture take a break or an aside and speaks in real time to John. Verse 6 speaks of everything John has seen and then 7 is a reminder of the second coming and a warning and this continues to the end of the chapter. Chronology and description of future events ended in verse 5.

            The other example we discussed in 21 is a bit better because after the aside comments, it picks back up with the chronology that eventually goes into the first 5 verses of 22.
            Thanks for taking the time to explain. Unfortunately, your explanation still didn't prove that "aside chronology" really exists or that it's an acceptable concept.

            And this is my reason: everything John saw and "heard" occurred in the same vision. You will recall similar examples where Daniel didn't understand the visions shown to him? In the same vision, (just as here) one angel tells another angel to explain the meaning of the vision/prophecy to him. Would you then say that was an *aside chronology" too? I hope you understand why I'm unable to accept your "aside chronology" as a genuine literary tool?

            ]
            Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
            For your interpretation to be correct, death, tears, pain and seas all have to stop existing when NJ comes down. Yet, there is plenty of those things through the MK, past it's end all the way up to the last minutes of the GWTJ. Can you see why I must disagree? You are going by two verses that speak of wicked people and things but aren't considering all the other things said to cease to exist at the time of the NJ.
            1. Your first error is confusing the NJ where there's no death or sorrow etc. with the rest of the world where death occurs.
            2. The scripture is emphatic that the NJ will be guarded by angels and none that offends will enter.

            Look at it this way; if the NJ comes down when the MK is over it means there's no difference between where Jesus and the saints dwell and the rest of the world. If you agree to this, then you will also agree that it makes no sense for scripture to say repeatedly that the wicked will not be allowed into the city for the obvious reason that by the time the CITY comes down, the wicked will no longer exist, thereby making that particular prophecy unnecessary.

            Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
            The obvious issue there is the NHNE happens before NJ comes down. Scripture doesn't support NJ first and much later the NHNE.
            If the NHNE happens before NJ comes down how do you explain the present heaven and earth fleeing away AT the GWTJ (Rev 20:11)? I hope you are not advocating that the two (old and new) run concurrently until the old ceases at the Throne Judgment because that will be a pretty bad theory?

            Comment


            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

              Originally posted by Noeb View Post
              Like yours? The dispensation of grace? Why is the word a dirty word among Christians when it's clearly taught in scripture?
              Dispensationalism and “dispensations” are two different things, however are intimately connected. Btw..how many dispensations do you think are in play? It ranges from 3 to 9....

              ‘Got Questions’ sum up these ‘dispensations’ up here. >>> https://www.gotquestions.org/seven-dispensations.html

              Generally speaking, I like Got Questions, but they bend to dispensationalism. I don’t have a problem with the way these periods of time are “broken down” per say, but as a framework to interpret scripture ( and invent doctrines ) , they fall short. They miss the “big picture” ...I don’t like the way they have broken down number 7 either ( it’s clearly expounding the dispensationalists view )

              It’s what dispensationalism does with these “periods” that I don’t like.

              Covenant theology does a far better job.
              “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

              מקום כניעה סך הכל

              Comment


              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                I see you're unwilling to review another view. Good luck.
                My post right before yours proves I am willing. You just have nothing to stand on here. You can't say leadership represents the whole while allowing any Israeli the koG, and it would be a waste of breath for Jesus to be saying the koG would be taken from any Israeli that does not believe. No duh! The text plainly points out their rejection of John, the truth, righteousness, Jesus, and their desire to lay hold of him to kill him but they feared the multitude because they thought him to be a prophet and eventually wanted to make him king.

                Comment


                • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                  Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
                  Dispensationalism and “dispensations” are two different things, however are intimately connected. Btw..how many dispensations do you think are in play? It ranges from 3 to 9....

                  ‘Got Questions’ sum up these ‘dispensations’ up here. >>> https://www.gotquestions.org/seven-dispensations.html

                  Generally speaking, I like Got Questions, but they bend to dispensationalism. I don’t have a problem with the way these periods of time are “broken down” per say, but as a framework to interpret scripture ( and invent doctrines ) , they fall short. They miss the “big picture” ...I don’t like the way they have broken down number 7 either ( it’s clearly expounding the dispensationalists view )

                  It’s what dispensationalism does with these “periods” that I don’t like.

                  Covenant theology does a far better job.
                  I don't agree with a lot of it either. We need to have balance and having only negative words for dispensations is misleading and isn't balanced.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                    Originally posted by kyCyd View Post
                    Well I am glad you looked at it again. Look at it some more!! lol I still think we differ in our thinking about it though. I don't think any OT people are in the first resurrection. I think they are after the 1000 years. So I see it a bit different than you. There are no scriptures that say they are part of the first resurrection.

                    I think you are thinking the NT believers are in the first resurrection because of the rapture yes? If that is the case you have to remember Paul said “the dead in Christ rise first” then we who remain. So that would point to only NT believers. Right?
                    And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                      Scripture doesn't say those things only cease in the city (not that they existed in it ever). It simply says those things no longer exist at all, anywhere:

                      Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
                      Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

                      All those things passed away so no where in the world do they exist.
                      Obviously, you've found yourself in a hole with no clue how to get out!

                      Which city is referred to in Rev 21-22 which murderers, sorcerers and all that offend are not allowed in?

                      Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
                      Rev 22:15 For without/outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

                      1. Those that do his commandments v-14 are those born in the MK who believe thus they have access to the ToL and can enter the CITY. If the NJ comes after the MK, then explain which city is referenced here?

                      2. Outside the city, in v -14 we have sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers, etc. Again, which city is referenced?

                      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                      There are too many things that show that view is incorrect.
                      Too many things...such as?

                      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                      Something going away does not equal new things arriving. John does not see the NHNE in chp 20.
                      Since you don't see the NHNE replacing the vanishing old one at the GWTJ are you suggesting a vacuum? I've asked you this in a previous post, I believe.

                      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                      All it means is the judging does not occur on the earth or in heaven...perhaps it's a spiritual dimension, but it isn't the arrival of the NHNE.
                      For lack of a sensible answer to something you know in your heart to be true, you are now making a mess of the subject by suggesting that the GWTJ is neither in heaven or earth, but might even be a "spiritual dimension". There's no shame in accepting you're wrong, you know.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                        The official stance on this is they do exist in the LOF forever. So, they aren't going to ever be in the holy city.
                        Whoever told you that those in the LoF can ever get out to go into the holy city?

                        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                        I have proven Rev 21-22 occur after Rev 20 chronologically. Death, pain, tears and seas do not exist in Rev 21, but they do in Rev 20.
                        You actually proved NOTHING. I'm still waiting for you to explain which city is referenced in Rev 21:14?

                        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                        I choose the position that matches scripture and has no contradictions.
                        I can't continue when there's nothing for me to learn.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                          Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                          And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
                          Ok I see what you mean now thanks....I think we are on the same page now.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                            Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                            Other than man not having access to the ToL and a temporary curse on the ground until Noah, did something change?


                            How do you say, "is not evidence of its continued usage" and post a passage that says, " the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations"?


                            Life cycle is found in Genesis 1 before sin and in the NHNE in the planting, growing, harvest. Season are in both, and winter brings death. Death is part of God's awesome creation.


                            pertains to man. Death is no longer certain for all.


                            How will mortals not glorified in the first resurrection escape mortality?

                            and seriously....would you please "Go Advanced" before posting so your long post are not doubled?
                            When A & E sinned, God cursed the ground:

                            *[[Gen 3:17]] KJV* And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

                            This curse meant that everything that depended on the ground for life, suffered from this curse. This included:
                            1. Man
                            2. Beasts
                            3. Creeping things, and
                            4. Fowls of the air.

                            The 4 faces of the cherubim that guarded the harden of Eden had 4 faces:
                            1. Man
                            2. Lion, representing the beasts
                            3. Ox, representing the creeping things, and
                            4. Eagle, representing the fowls of the air.

                            When decided to send the flood, there were two motivating factors:

                            *[[Gen 6:5]] KJV* And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. [6] And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. [7] And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

                            They are:
                            1. Continual wickedness of man (from his youth),
                            2. Meat for man that comes from the earth.

                            This second thought is not real clear from Gen 6. But the clarity of this is found in the creation account. There we find this concept of meat for man:

                            Verse list:
                            Gen 1:28-30 KJV And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God said [TO THEM], Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be FOR MEAT. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb FOR MEAT: and it was so.

                            God put two important things in the garden to insure that man would be properly fed. The Tree of life and the River of life. Both of these were not directly for man, but for the indirect sustenance of mass n to feed and nourish those things that were maintained by the earth, and not just for man. Because the tree of life was capable of letting man live forever, it also did the same for the other denouement aspects of the ground of the earth. Man was barred from access to the tree of life as well as the rest of the animals of the land. And with that came death. Not just for man but all of creation, land animals included. The scriptures are clear that death entered into the world because of the sin of Adam.

                            *[[Rom 5:12]] KJV* Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

                            God later declared that it was not the creatures of the land (man included) that needed to be destroyed, to remove the wickedness, and in essence God unnecessarily destroyed the land animals.

                            *[[Gen 8:21]] KJV* And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

                            It was the imagination of man that was evil continually:

                            *[[Gen 8:21]] KJV* And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

                            I will have to finish later, but my point is that the tree of life was not just for man but for all of creation. And it's restoration to planet earth is not just for man, but for the rest of creation that groans in expectation of man's redemption when sin and death are forever abolished. The tree of life can be rightfully returned because man has no sin that he might eat of it and live forever in rebellion against God.

                            Verse list:
                            Rom 8:21-23 KJV Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

                            Blessings
                            The PuP

                            Comment


                            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                              Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                              I don't agree with a lot of it either. We need to have balance and having only negative words for dispensations is misleading and isn't balanced.
                              Good to see we have some agreement, ....talking about these 3-9 dispensations per se, I see nothing wrong...one could even explain things to a new believer with this rough framework, but to build an entire theology and doctrines around it, that’s pushing it too far...
                              “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

                              מקום כניעה סך הכל

                              Comment


                              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                                I'm unable to accept your "aside chronology" as a genuine literary tool?
                                I already told you there is no "aside chronology" only an "aside" that stops any current discussion of chronology. All it means is when chronological events are talked about then suddenly the writer stops that and talks about something else and then either returns where he left off or is already done like in the ending of Rev 22.


                                1. Your first error is confusing the NJ where there's no death or sorrow etc. with the rest of the world where death occurs.
                                You are inserting a limitation to only within the holy city where scripture does not.

                                2. The scripture is emphatic that the NJ will be guarded by angels and none that offends will enter.
                                It doesn't say they guard anything. Each gate simply has an angel. No one can leave the LOF so no "guarding" is happening. I see them as welcomers not guards to keep people out since it is impossible for anyone evil to even come to the gates.


                                Look at it this way; if the NJ comes down when the MK is over it means there's no difference between where Jesus and the saints dwell and the rest of the world.
                                There is a difference. The wicked come from other areas in Rev 20 to surround the city which means they didn't live in the city and had to travel just to get to it.


                                If the NHNE happens before NJ comes down how do you explain the present heaven and earth fleeing away AT the GWTJ (Rev 20:11)?
                                I have already explained that.


                                I hope you are not advocating that the two (old and new) run concurrently until the old ceases at the Throne Judgment because that will be a pretty bad theory?
                                If you read my previous posts you would know I don't express that. If the fleeing means the current heaven and Earth age is over that does not mean the NHNE has begun. Second, even if the
                                current heaven and Earth age is over at the GWTJ that also proves NJ did not come down a thousand years before because John states the NHNE happens first, then he saw NJ. You have the order of the NHNE and NJ completely out of whack, not remotely close to the order John gives.

                                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                                I'm unable to accept your "aside chronology" as a genuine literary tool?
                                I already told you there is no "aside chronology" only an "aside" that stops any current discussion of chronology. All it means is when chronological events are talked about then suddenly the writer stops that and talks about something else and then either returns where he left off or is already done like in the ending of Rev 22.


                                1. Your first error is confusing the NJ where there's no death or sorrow etc. with the rest of the world where death occurs.
                                You are inserting a limitation to only within the holy city where scripture does not.

                                2. The scripture is emphatic that the NJ will be guarded by angels and none that offends will enter.
                                It doesn't say they guard anything. Each gate simply has an angel. No one can leave the LOF so no "guarding" is happening. I see them as welcomers not guards to keep people out since it is impossible for anyone evil to even come to the gates.


                                Look at it this way; if the NJ comes down when the MK is over it means there's no difference between where Jesus and the saints dwell and the rest of the world.
                                There is a difference. The wicked come from other areas in Rev 20 to surround the city which means they didn't live in the city and had to travel just to get to it.


                                If the NHNE happens before NJ comes down how do you explain the present heaven and earth fleeing away AT the GWTJ (Rev 20:11)?
                                I have already explained that.


                                I hope you are not advocating that the two (old and new) run concurrently until the old ceases at the Throne Judgment because that will be a pretty bad theory?
                                If you read my previous posts you would know I don't express that. If the fleeing means the current heaven and Earth age is over that does not mean the NHNE has begun. Second, even if the
                                current heaven and Earth age is over at the GWTJ that also proves NJ did not come down a thousand years before because John states the NHNE happens first, then he saw NJ. You have the order of the NHNE and NJ completely out of whack, not remotely close to the order John gives.
                                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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