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  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Yes because your personal beliefs are "the truth". What you express here is exactly how people fall into false doctrine, when they truely believe that whatever position they take is the "truth" they lose the ability to become objective. Look at your NJ argument across the boards people are told you that you're wrong. But in your eyes you have the truth and everyone else is "blind" you can't even hear them as they try to help you.
    On that score, I don't keep count of the topics I've conceded that I'm wrong. Fact is, there are people who present compelling cases and those who don't. I am always open and willing to defer to a better argument. Question is, is your case compelling, persuasive and most importantly, in line with scripture? Sadly, it is not.

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    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

      Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
      CORRECT The NC was "orchestrated" or "anchored" in the Blood of Christ but it is NOT the Blood of Christ. This is why in the NT these two concepts are mentioned separately, somehow you want to make them the same. The Blood of Jesus leads, anchors, inaugurates, guarantees the NC but it is not the NC. Just like in the OT the Sacrifce of Animal blood was not the Old Covenant. Go read Hebrews 12:22-24 Jesus blood even here is mentioned seperate from the NC.
      I asked you in a previous post whether it is possible to make an omelette without egg and you ducked and dodged the question.

      a. If you believe it's possible to have an omelette without breaking an egg, then your argument will be tenable.
      b. On the other hand, if you believe there MUST be an to have an omelette, then you should also acknowledge how bizarre your claim above is?

      Comment


      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

        Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
        1 Corinthians 11: 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
        You accuse me of not answering your question, yet instead of answering a simple question put to you, you counter with scripture that contradicts what you are claiming. If you had bothered to read the preceding verse 26 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. you'll find that the blood of Jesus was shed to bring in the NEW COVENANT.

        And guess what? Jesus said it, not me.

        It is rather disappointing (but not surprising) that you and et al will rather deny a scriptural truth than acknowledge you're wrong.

        Comment


        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          You accuse me of not answering your question, yet instead of answering a simple question put to you, you counter with scripture that contradicts what you are claiming. If you had bothered to read the preceding verse 26 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. you'll find that the blood of Jesus was shed to bring in the NEW COVENANT.

          And guess what? Jesus said it, not me.

          It is rather disappointing (but not surprising) that you and et al will rather deny a scriptural truth than acknowledge you're wrong.
          You didn't asnwer my question and you still refuse to. Is Ezekiel 37:21-28 a current reality yes or no?

          Comment


          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

            Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
            Here is just a sampling of quotes about the everlasting kingdom.

            Verse list:
            Psa 145:13 KJV Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.
            Dan 2:44 KJV And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
            Dan 7:14 KJV And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
            Luk 22:29 KJV And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
            Eph 5:5 KJV For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
            2Pe 1:11 KJV For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
            Rev 11:15 KJV And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

            Several things to note.
            1. It is referred to as the simultaneous kingdom of God/ Christ
            2. It is given/appointed to him BY the Father.
            3. It is of this world and everlasting.
            4. It is for Gentiles and Jews.

            I don't recall at the moment WHEN you believe the kingdom of Dan 2 is set up, but if you believe,
            1. At the first advent, surely you believe that, since that time, we enter into the kingdom BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST...Or,
            2. [If] At the 2nd advent, do you not have the same delay of implementing the kingdom equal unto your position to a delayed implementation of the covenant?
            Either way, do we not enter into the kingdom by the blood of Christ, whether it is an ongoing process or a deferred one. Do you see what I'm asking?

            You equate the role of Jesus as high priest, as per HEB 9:16, to be one and the same as the mediator of the new covenant. How could you answer that the covenant and kingdom are different, and Jesus's role in both of them are one and the same?

            *[[Heb 10:19]] KJV* Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, [20] By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; [21] And having an high priest over the house of God;

            Blessings
            The PuP
            Thank you for providing the clarifying passages and I will respond as follows:

            1. God promised an eternal kingdom - a paradise for the faithful in Christ.
            2. This "eternal kingdom" will commence when Christ returns.
            3. However, there is nothing that validates any assumption that the future manifestation of Christ' earthly kingdom is associated with the timescale and implementation of the new covenant.
            4. The scripture is plain that by death, Jesus Christ' blood ratified the NC spoken by the prophets. 1 Cor 15:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
            5. The scripture (Heb 10:17) went further to confirm that the blood of Jesus cleanses us of sins, thus making the faithful qualified to enter into the eternal Kingdom.
            6. While the new covenant is presently operative, access to the kingdom will only be possible when we are made perfect (1 Cor 15:50).

            Comment


            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
              I asked you in a previous post whether it is possible to make an omelette without egg and you ducked and dodged the question.

              a. If you believe it's possible to have an omelette without breaking an egg, then your argument will be tenable.
              b. On the other hand, if you believe there MUST be an to have an omelette, then you should also acknowledge how bizarre your claim above is?
              You make this comment about omelets without eggs... the internet is full of recipes just type in “eggless omelet” they do exist. I can tell you have never searched the net on the subject.

              Comment


              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                I asked you in a previous post whether it is possible to make an omelette without egg and you ducked and dodged the question.

                a. If you believe it's possible to have an omelette without breaking an egg, then your argument will be tenable.
                b. On the other hand, if you believe there MUST be an to have an omelette, then you should also acknowledge how bizarre your claim above is?
                Why do i have to answer any question when you refuse to answer any of mine even when I ask first? Here is a better question was the Old Covenant the Blood of Goats?

                Exodus 24:And Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, and half of the blood he threw against the altar. 7Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient.” 8And Moses took the blood and threw it on the people and said, “Behold the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words.”

                SO according to your doctrine the OT covenant isn't the Book of the Covenant or the 10 commandments it's the "blood of the animals".

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                • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  On that score, I don't keep count of the topics I've conceded that I'm wrong. Fact is, there are people who present compelling cases and those who don't. I am always open and willing to defer to a better argument. Question is, is your case compelling, persuasive and most importantly, in line with scripture? Sadly, it is not.
                  My case on the NJ doesn't have to be compelling, you're the one whose offering an unorthodox position which is why NO ONE agrees with you. Yet accoding to you your case (that convinced zero people so far) is the one that lines up with scripture and is correct

                  Comment


                  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                    If that's how you see anyone who has the good sense to recognise that the new covenant is now operative, then it's really unfortunate.
                    That they are Amil and believe the MK is now, how is that fact "unfortunate"?

                    Comment


                    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                      I answer new questions but avoid repetitions. The weakness of your understanding of the NC is your belief that the those who partake in it ought to dwell in the holy land NOW. But the Bible made it clear that first of all, it is for the remission of sin which will enable the faithful to enter into the holy land in the Millennium.
                      Because that is what all the prophesies about the NC say they include the Gathering of the Exiles, The cleansing of Sin, the title of "My People" and the Sanutuary of God being in the Midst of Israel forever more. All you do is focus on the Sin part and Ignore the rest of Gods promise in your weak NC position it's why you Refuse to Address Zech 12-14 Ezkiel 37:15-28 and Romans 11:26-27 and you will continue to do so.



                      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                      The fact you can't deal with the reality presented in Heb 10:12-18 but will rather bury your head in the sand, tells me all I need to know. That you are not yet ready to accept the TRUTH!
                      I do accept the "truth" Jesus is christ. Now you gonna answer these quesitions or do you admit they don't fit into your position?

                      Do you believe Zech 12-14 has been fulfilled most Amil will say yes but as a premil your position on this topic is very weak. For example, do you believe that Zech 13:1-3 has already been fulfilled? How about Romans 11:26-27? If not does your doctrine preach there will be a 3rd Covenant for the salvation of National Israel?

                      Comment


                      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                        Great! And that covenant is?
                        The Covenant is the Kingdom which shall come in the Future.



                        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                        If you're exasperated by my bringing it up again and again, perhaps you understand why I'm dumbfounded that despite conceding that (1) Jesus has already died (2) and will not die a second time (3) you still inexplicably claim that the New Covenant is yet in some distant future?
                        Yes, i'm exasprated because you already have the answer yet you constantly claim our savior needs to die again even though this is not nessary in any doctrine. Use your brain, Do you believe Rev 5:6 happened in the distant past?



                        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                        If truth be told, I'm questioning the point in continuing this debate with you because I find your position so out of line with scripture that it's impossible for us to ever find a common ground for congruent.
                        Which is sad because my position isn't out of line with scripture which is why biblical scholars and the Like take my position. The fact that you can't even understand the other side of the debate shows you have no place here. Even if we don't agree to have a "debate" you have to "understand" your opponents side and even with over 400 posts to you you still don't even understand my position enough to attack it.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                          Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                          You are correct, my question was what the cup represents. It represents more than one thing, the covenant and the blood. This to remember what Jesus had done for us. I have not said the covenant is the blood. His blood flowed for the covenant, it sealed it and in the covenant are forgiveness of sin.
                          On this we agree, epecially these last two bolded portions. All i'm saying is Just like in the OT when Moses took the blood and sprinkled on the people. The Blood and the Book of the Covenant were not the same thing like trivalee is claiming. See exodus 24:7-8.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                            Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                            You didn't asnwer my question and you still refuse to. Is Ezekiel 37:21-28 a current reality yes or no?
                            Ezekiel 37:21-28 refer to the redeemed of Israel after Christ' glories return. But is it a confirmation that it is at that time that the New Covenant will be introduced? Of course not! The Bible is clear that only those of Israel who believe will be saved.

                            Since Jesus by his death and blood, became the mediator of the new covenant, it requires that those who will be gathered to dwell in the land to be first saved. And I say this with verity because the OT faithful will also rise to dwell in the land. Jesus said that those who reject him will be in the outer darkness (Luke 13:28) while the Patriarchs and the saved throughout the ages will be in the kingdom. This is where the blood which brought in the new covenant plays the role of forgiveness of sin as the pathway to partake of the land promise.

                            Therefore, we can safely conclude that not every one of Israel will enter the kingdom to participate to enjoy the land promise. It is a folly to assume that the NC will only be introduced in the Millennium because those in the kingdom at that time would have assumed immortality.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              Thank you for providing the clarifying passages and I will respond as follows:

                              1. God promised an eternal kingdom - a paradise for the faithful in Christ.
                              2. This "eternal kingdom" will commence when Christ returns.
                              3. However, there is nothing that validates any assumption that the future manifestation of Christ' earthly kingdom is associated with the timescale and implementation of the new covenant.
                              4. The scripture is plain that by death, Jesus Christ' blood ratified the NC spoken by the prophets. 1 Cor 15:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
                              5. The scripture (Heb 10:17) went further to confirm that the blood of Jesus cleanses us of sins, thus making the faithful qualified to enter into the eternal Kingdom.
                              6. While the new covenant is presently operative, access to the kingdom will only be possible when we are made perfect (1 Cor 15:50).
                              All your points I agree with accept 3 & 6. The Evidence abounds that the NC wil commense when the Kingdom Comes. Even the words of Jesus himself when he offered the Cup Matthew 26:29 & 1 Cor 11:26. Also you can check out Hebrews 12:22-28

                              12:24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

                              25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? 26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.”[e] 27 The words “once more” indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.

                              28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29 for our “God is a consuming fire.”


                              We get - the Blood we get- the Covenant and -then we are told we shall Recieve a KINGDOM.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                                Originally posted by kyCyd View Post
                                You make this comment about omelets without eggs... the internet is full of recipes just type in “eggless omelet” they do exist. I can tell you have never searched the net on the subject.
                                You are of course very correct, brother. I have no intention of trivialising or making fun of scripture. While alternative forms of eggless omelette can be found, I am however confident that my analogy is clearly understood. That is, the natural way to make an omelette is to break an egg. In the same way, the blood of bulls and calves was an integral part of the first covenant. And finding fault with the blood of animals, Jesus substituted his blood to ratify the second/new covenant.

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