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  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
    Thank you for providing the clarifying passages and I will respond as follows:

    1. God promised an eternal kingdom - a paradise for the faithful in Christ.
    2. This "eternal kingdom" will commence when Christ returns.
    3. However, there is nothing that validates any assumption that the future manifestation of Christ' earthly kingdom is associated with the timescale and implementation of the new covenant.
    4. The scripture is plain that by death, Jesus Christ' blood ratified the NC spoken by the prophets. 1 Cor 15:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
    5. The scripture (Heb 10:17) went further to confirm that the blood of Jesus cleanses us of sins, thus making the faithful qualified to enter into the eternal Kingdom.
    6. While the new covenant is presently operative, access to the kingdom will only be possible when we are made perfect (1 Cor 15:50).
    Thank you for the reply. But consider this. Whoever the scriptures speak of INHERITING the kingdom:

    *[[Mat 25:34]]* Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    *[[1Co 6:9]]* Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    *[[1Co 6:10]]* Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    *[[1Co 15:50]]* Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    *[[Gal 5:21]]* Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    *[[Eph 5:5]]* For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

    Inheriting the kingdom, is in reference to when the kingdom of God shall come and is given only to the righteous. All of us ENTER into the kingdom as unrighteous sinners. No one is worthy to enter the kingdom, so it is clear that inheriting the kingdom refers to our glorification unto immortality. But yet you insist that the inheritance of the covenant is in the here and now. Look again:

    *[[Heb 9:15]] KJV* And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of ETERNAL INHERITANCE.

    We enter the kingdom now and inherit the kingdom when Jesus returns. But we inherit the covenant now? Are you sure this is what you believe?

    Blessings
    The PuP

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    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
      Ezekiel 37:21-28 refer to the redeemed of Israel after Christ' glories return. But is it a confirmation that it is at that time that the New Covenant will be introduced? Of course not! The Bible is clear that only those of Israel who believe will be saved.
      But isn't it confirmation? Look at Romans 11:and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

      “The deliverer will come from Zion;
      he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
      27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
      when I take away their sins.”

      The When In Verse 27 can only be about 1 Advent, Either He's speaking about the First coming or He's speaking about the Second coming. To me it's clear this passage is speaking about the 2nd Coming when Jesus will turn away godlsesness From Jacob.

      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
      Since Jesus by his death and blood, became the mediator of the new covenant, it requires that those who will be gathered to dwell in the land to be first saved. And I say this with verity because the OT faithful will also rise to dwell in the land. Jesus said that those who reject him will be in the outer darkness (Luke 13:28) while the Patriarchs and the saved throughout the ages will be in the kingdom. This is where the blood which brought in the new covenant plays the role of forgiveness of sin as the pathway to partake of the land promise.

      Therefore, we can safely conclude that not every one of Israel will enter the kingdom to participate to enjoy the land promise. It is a folly to assume that the NC will only be introduced in the Millennium because those in the kingdom at that time would have assumed immortality.
      Nothing in Zech 12-14 speaks of any of the remnant recieving immortatly at the second coming of Christ. I'll just use Zech 13:8-9, and Zech 14:4-5 these people clearly did not "assume immortality" they're living breathing people.

      Comment


      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

        Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
        My case on the NJ doesn't have to be compelling, you're the one whose offering an unorthodox position which is why NO ONE agrees with you. Yet accoding to you your case (that convinced zero people so far) is the one that lines up with scripture and is correct
        Unlike you, I'm not looking for a fan base. I have presented my case as articulate and concise as I can and I'm comfortable with myself.: amen: Whether the likes of you agree with me or not doesn't bother me.

        Comment


        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

          Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
          Why do i have to answer any question when you refuse to answer any of mine even when I ask first? Here is a better question was the Old Covenant the Blood of Goats?

          Exodus 24:And Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, and half of the blood he threw against the altar. 7Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient.” 8And Moses took the blood and threw it on the people and said, “Behold the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words.”

          SO according to your doctrine the OT covenant isn't the Book of the Covenant or the 10 commandments it's the "blood of the animals".
          Animal blood and the Law was the strength of the old covenant. In the same way, the blood of Jesus is the cornerstone of the new. Hope this answers your question?

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          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

            Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
            That they are Amil and believe the MK is now, how is that fact "unfortunate"?
            I didn't mention "Amil" and what they believe. What I meant is that if you see those who agree that the New Covenant is not active as all Amil, then it's unfortunate...

            Comment


            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
              Unlike you, I'm not looking for a fan base. I have presented my case as articulate and concise as I can and I'm comfortable with myself.: amen: Whether the likes of you agree with me or not doesn't bother me.
              Who needs a fan base? All i'm trying to tell you is to be "objective" if your case is rock-solid biblical truth why 1. Can't you convince anyone of your position 2. Why isn't it the Orthodox position of the church? Is it possible just maybe that you're wrong or that your argument isn't compelling and that's people here are trying to help you because they see you're in error?

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              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                I didn't mention "Amil" and what they believe. What I meant is that if you see those who agree that the New Covenant is not active as all Amil, then it's unfortunate...
                No what i'm saying is you go Ra Ra when ever someone who is Amil sounds like they agree with you, but you must understand they believe the NC and the MK is Now. In other words they agree with my position only they believe that the MK/NC is NOW as opposed to commensing at the second coming of Christ.

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                • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  Animal blood and the Law was the strength of the old covenant. In the same way, the blood of Jesus is the cornerstone of the new. Hope this answers your question?
                  Yes, sounds like you agree that they're 2 separate concepts though intrinsically linked, one is the Foundation and one is the House.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                    Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                    Yes, sounds like you agree that they're 2 separate concepts though intrinsically linked, one is the Foundation and one is the House.
                    The truth is that in some ways, methinks that beyond the bickering, we have many points of agreement. Unfortunately, we seem to be unwittingly *wired* to disagree with each other that we don't even recognise when we have consensus.

                    That said, hopefully, you will agree with me that as the foundation cannot be separated from the House (thank you for this analogy) so the blood of Jesus cannot be separated from the New Covenant?

                    Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                    Yes, sounds like you agree that they're 2 separate concepts though intrinsically linked, one is the Foundation and one is the House.
                    The truth is that in some ways, methinks that beyond the bickering, we have many points of agreement. Unfortunately, we seem to be unwittingly *wired* to disagree with each other that we don't even recognise when we have consensus.

                    That said, hopefully, you will agree with me that as the foundation cannot be separated from the House (thank you for this analogy) so the blood of Jesus cannot be separated from the New Covenant?

                    Comment


                    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                      The truth is that in some ways, methinks that beyond the bickering, we have many points of agreement. Unfortunately, we seem to be unwittingly *wired* to disagree with each other that we don't even recognise when we have consensus.


                      That said, hopefully, you will agree with me that as the foundation cannot be separated from the House (thank you for this analogy) so the blood of Jesus cannot be separated from the New Covenant?

                      Yes, I think we agree on A lot of things more than which is why I really hope you don't think I have any animosity towards you, I truly don't, it's just dishearting(poor word choice maybe) when we are so close to agreeing and you end up going in another direction.


                      We agree The Foundation and the House cannot work apart, but all of that we see now is what is accomplished "by the Blood" in other words I believe people even today are still coming "Under the Blood" in the future(when the covenant is established) people will join themselves to the Covenant (or to the Kingdom) for example Isaiah 14:1. Just read what the blood does in Rev 5:9 with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.


                      That's what I believe Paul is trying to explain in Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

                      My question for you in this post.

                      Full Inclusion into what?


                      My Position- The goal of God in my view is to have the Israelites in mortal bodies living in the Holy land under a covenant relationship, while we the church are formed into the temple of God that dwells in the midst of the MK.


                      Ephesians 2:19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him, the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him, you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.


                      See there we have our analogy again of the building, what I'm saying is the whole building together is the NC/MK, But I do not believe that the "whole building is now Joined together and has already risen" I believe that part is still future. Which is what I Keep saying we are now "under the blood".




                      My view is that we are all "under the blood", the blood of Christ frees the Israelites from the Law and grants Gentiles forgiveness of sins. When we are a Kingdom I believe that we will be governed by the NC, which includes the Full Inclusion of Israel in their place. In my View, the Blood has its own role and the NC is future. I hope that makes sense!

                      Comment


                      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                        Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                        That they are Amil and believe the MK is now, how is that fact "unfortunate"?
                        What is unfortunate is your claim that "everyone" who believes that the New Covenant is now operative is Amil.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                          Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                          Because that is what all the prophesies about the NC say they include the Gathering of the Exiles, The cleansing of Sin, the title of "My People" and the Sanutuary of God being in the Midst of Israel forever more. All you do is focus on the Sin part and Ignore the rest of Gods promise in your weak NC position it's why you Refuse to Address Zech 12-14 Ezkiel 37:15-28 and Romans 11:26-27 and you will continue to do so.
                          On the contrary, you are the one ignoring the fact that ALL these aspects of the New Covenant as you pointed out are already fulfilled. The first people who received the Holy Ghost was Jews, comprising of Israel and Judah. There are two phases of the promised gathering of Israel. The first as you cited was those in exile and it was fulfilled after the Babylonian captivity. The second phase of gathering refers to Jews receiving and believing in the Gospel and being gathered to their Messiah (not necessarily their homeland). The days of Jewish exile is over since no Jew today is imposed exile. I don't expect you, of course, to grasp this.

                          Finally, the redemption of land belongs to those who believe from Abraham up to the converts at the eschaton. Your inability to comprehend this reality will continue to inhibit your understanding of the prophecy.

                          Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                          I do accept the "truth" Jesus is christ. Now you gonna answer these quesitions or do you admit they don't fit into your position?

                          Do you believe Zech 12-14 has been fulfilled most Amil will say yes but as a premil your position on this topic is very weak. For example, do you believe that Zech 13:1-3 has already been fulfilled? How about Romans 11:26-27? If not does your doctrine preach there will be a 3rd Covenant for the salvation of National Israel?
                          Zech 12-14 refers to the end times and has nothing to do with the new covenant which started at the cross. We see in Zech 14:2 that Jerusalem will to the Beast after the believing Jews have escaped into the wilderness.
                          Rom 11:26-27 again, God didn't promise another way to be saved than JESUS. This text in Roman points to the national revival of Israel at the time of the Two Witnesses. IOW, only believing Jews in Christ will be saved when they are grafted back into the olive tree. Again, it has nothing to do with the new covenant.

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                          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                            Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                            The Covenant is the Kingdom which shall come in the Future.
                            Where in scripture did you find that?

                            Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                            Yes, i'm exasprated because you already have the answer yet you constantly claim our savior needs to die again even though this is not nessary in any doctrine. Use your brain, Do you believe Rev 5:6 happened in the distant past?
                            Since you acknowledged that Jesus will not die again and yet claim that the new covenant is still in the future, you are further adrift than I thought.

                            Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                            Which is sad because my position isn't out of line with scripture which is why biblical scholars and the Like take my position. The fact that you can't even understand the other side of the debate shows you have no place here. Even if we don't agree to have a "debate" you have to "understand" your opponents side and even with over 400 posts to you you still don't even understand my position enough to attack it.
                            Biblical scholars take your position, don't make me laugh.
                            I completely understand "the other side of the debate" which is hogwash and a pretty bad rendition of the scripture. If your idea of understanding your side of the debate requires me to accept a bad interpretation, then I have no regret in disappointing you.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              What is unfortunate is your claim that "everyone" who believes that the New Covenant is now operative is Amil.
                              I didn't claim the above.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                                On the contrary, you are the one ignoring the fact that ALL these aspects of the New Covenant as you pointed out are already fulfilled. The first people who received the Holy Ghost was Jews, comprising of Israel and Judah. There are two phases of the promised gathering of Israel. The first as you cited was those in exile and it was fulfilled after the Babylonian captivity.
                                I didn't know you still believed this, the prophesy says after they are gathered back they Will Never be scattered again so to believe this was fullfilled by the return of some exiles from babylon defies belief Ezek 37:25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever.They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever..

                                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                                The second phase of gathering refers to Jews receiving and believing in the Gospel and being gathered to their Messiah (not necessarily their homeland). The days of Jewish exile is over since no Jew today is imposed exile. I don't expect you, of course, to grasp this.
                                The passage clearly says In the land where there ancestors lived... The Jewish exiled ended in 1948 not when Jesus died on the cross. Who doesn't grasp this?

                                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                                Finally, the redemption of land belongs to those who believe from Abraham up to the converts at the eschaton. Your inability to comprehend this reality will continue to inhibit your understanding of the prophecy.
                                Not sure what you mean here we agree on this point, I'm confused why you think i'm unable to grasp things we agree on



                                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                                Zech 12-14 refers to the end times and has nothing to do with the new covenant which started at the cross. We see in Zech 14:2 that Jerusalem will to the Beast after the believing Jews have escaped into the wilderness.
                                You're focusing on the wrong part why not try starting in Zech 12:10 When did this Happen? How about Zech 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. When in your view was this fountian opened?
                                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                                Rom 11:26-27 again, God didn't promise another way to be saved than JESUS.
                                Thats not my claim unsure why you think it is? The passage says this is my covenant with them "When I take away there sin" according to you this happened at the Cross right? Unrightness as already been removed from Jacob? Isn't that your whole position?

                                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                                This text in Roman points to the national revival of Israel at the time of the Two Witnesses. IOW, only believing Jews in Christ will be saved when they are grafted back into the olive tree. Again, it has nothing to do with the new covenant.
                                So this is a Different Covenant to you? You believe in a 3rd Covenant that points to the "national revival of Israel at the time of the Two Witnesses" do you have a name for this third covenant since its not the NC in your view?

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