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  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
    Where in scripture did you find that? Since you acknowledged that Jesus will not die again and yet claim that the new covenant is still in the future, you are further adrift than I thought. Biblical scholars take your position, don't make me laugh. I completely understand "the other side of the debate" which is hogwash and a pretty bad rendition of the scripture. If your idea of understanding your side of the debate requires me to accept a bad interpretation, then I have no regret in disappointing you.

    No "understanding my side" simply means you don't make comments that misrepresent what I'm saying. It will save everyone a lot of time so I have to come back and clear up what was said after you fill my posts with errors and claim I said this or that. If you have questions ask but don't claim I said things I Didn't simple because you're in a rush and don't have time to read carefully.


    The Blood is active now not the NC. Jesus doesn't have to Die again because "because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.”


    Are we now a Kingdom and Priests that Reign on Earth? Obviously not to this day people are still coming under "the Blood" but after Jesus comes back people will have to join themselves to the NC just like people could join themselves in the past to the OC.

    Comment


    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

      Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
      On this we agree, epecially these last two bolded portions. All i'm saying is Just like in the OT when Moses took the blood and sprinkled on the people. The Blood and the Book of the Covenant were not the same thing like trivalee is claiming. See exodus 24:7-8.
      I'm saying that you can't have a covenant (old/new) without shedding blood. The blood of Jesus is said to be the "blood of the everlasting covenant" Heb 13:20.

      Comment


      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

        Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
        All your points I agree with accept 3 & 6. The Evidence abounds that the NC wil commense when the Kingdom Comes. Even the words of Jesus himself when he offered the Cup Matthew 26:29 & 1 Cor 11:26. Also you can check out Hebrews 12:22-28

        12:24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

        25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? 26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.”[e] 27 The words “once more” indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.

        28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29 for our “God is a consuming fire.”


        We get - the Blood we get- the Covenant and -then we are told we shall Recieve a KINGDOM.
        You said "we get the blood - we get the covenant - and we shall receive a Kingdom. But this is false doctrine because we ALREADY HAVE THE BLOOD of Jesus and the New Covenant is already operative. And we'll receive the Kingdom in the resurrection.

        Comment


        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

          Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
          But isn't it confirmation? Look at Romans 11:and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

          “The deliverer will come from Zion;
          he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
          27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
          when I take away their sins.”

          The When In Verse 27 can only be about 1 Advent, Either He's speaking about the First coming or He's speaking about the Second coming. To me it's clear this passage is speaking about the 2nd Coming when Jesus will turn away godlsesness From Jacob.

          Peter taught at Pentecost; just after Christ ascended up into heaven, that Jesus had already turned away Godliness from Jabob; and it was a present availability for all the house of Israel, and their children, to receive the Holy Spirit.
          They asked what they must do, and Peter said, to repent.

          The Salvation of the House of Israel was postponed to the 2nd Advent.

          Over every ongoing generation; this promise is offerered and available to every member of Jacob and of the House of Israel.
          Jesus is YHWH the eternal Great I AM.
          • Jesus said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I AM from above: ye are of this world; I AM not of this world. if ye believe not that I AM He, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:23
          • " I YHWH the LORD, the first, and with the last; I AM He. Thus saith YHWH the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer YHWH the LORD of hosts; I AM the first, and I AM the last; and beside me there is no God.” Isaiah 41:4,44:6
          • "And [the son of Man] laid his right hand upon me, saying Fear not; I AM the first and the last: I AM He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I AM alive for evermore. These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive" Rev 1:17, 2:8
          • "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Rev 22:12

          Comment


          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

            Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
            Thank you for the reply. But consider this. Whoever the scriptures speak of INHERITING the kingdom:

            *[[Mat 25:34]]* Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

            *[[1Co 6:9]]* Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

            *[[1Co 6:10]]* Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

            *[[1Co 15:50]]* Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

            *[[Gal 5:21]]* Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

            *[[Eph 5:5]]* For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

            Inheriting the kingdom, is in reference to when the kingdom of God shall come and is given only to the righteous. All of us ENTER into the kingdom as unrighteous sinners. No one is worthy to enter the kingdom, so it is clear that inheriting the kingdom refers to our glorification unto immortality. But yet you insist that the inheritance of the covenant is in the here and now. Look again:

            *[[Heb 9:15]] KJV* And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of ETERNAL INHERITANCE.

            We enter the kingdom now and inherit the kingdom when Jesus returns. But we inherit the covenant now? Are you sure this is what you believe?

            Blessings
            The PuP
            1. The "Kingdom" referenced is the Millennial Age and ONLY those made perfect by faith in Christ will qualify (Eph 2:8-9). This is where the New Covenant Jesus has given to the faithful comes in. No one can be saved without (a) belief in Christ (b) forgiveness of their sin.

            2. Scripture says that the New Covenant provides forgiveness of sin.
            Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

            If your position is correct, then it would mean that Jesus will forgive the sin of those ALREADY in the MK. I don't need to remind you how false this assertion is because only those whose sins are ALREADY forgiven are allowed in. In Heb 3:7-8, the scripture says "Today, if you hear his voice, (ie if you hear the Gospel) do not harden your heart. Therefore, if you hear the Gospel today, believe and receive Christ that your sins may be forgiven. TODAY!! Not tomorrow or in the MK!

            3. I don't know which kingdom you think you have "entered"? If you mean in a symbolic sense, then may I remind you that those who are supposedly "in the kingdom" are believers which places them in the remit of the New Covenant?

            In conclusion: the new covenant prepares the believer (by cleansing them of sin, enabling righteous living, etc) to be fit for the promised kingdom of God. To understand this, you need first to appreciate the role that God intended the new covenant to play.

            Comment


            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

              Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
              But isn't it confirmation? Look at Romans 11:and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

              “The deliverer will come from Zion;
              he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
              27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
              when I take away their sins.”

              The When In Verse 27 can only be about 1 Advent, Either He's speaking about the First coming or He's speaking about the Second coming. To me it's clear this passage is speaking about the 2nd Coming when Jesus will turn away godlsesness From Jacob.
              While the text points to the second coming, it is, however, undeniable that "all Israel" does not include the unbelievers among them. Therefore, those who are saved denote the Jewish believers who are grafted back into the olive tree (Jesus). By believing in Christ, their sins are forgiven by the blood of the new covenant (Heb 10:16-17). Another proof that the New Covenant is now in effect.

              Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
              Nothing in Zech 12-14 speaks of any of the remnant recieving immortatly at the second coming of Christ. I'll just use Zech 13:8-9, and Zech 14:4-5 these people clearly did not "assume immortality" they're living breathing people.
              I understand your argument here because the people in view are still in this present age, ie. before Jesus returns. If you look at Zech 14:2 Jerusalem capitulates to the Beast's army; the majority escapes into the desert. Those who remain are massacred, their wives raped, etc. This is the time of the Great Tribulation, but 3.5 years later, the Messiah returns and defeats the Beast at Armageddon.

              Comment


              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                Who needs a fan base? All i'm trying to tell you is to be "objective" if your case is rock-solid biblical truth why 1. Can't you convince anyone of your position 2. Why isn't it the Orthodox position of the church? Is it possible just maybe that you're wrong or that your argument isn't compelling and that's people here are trying to help you because they see you're in error?
                I am objective, all right.
                The numbers that share my position are actually more than the handful of dissent.
                Can you provide evidence that the "Orthodox Church" actually say what you claim?

                Comment


                • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                  Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                  No what i'm saying is you go Ra Ra when ever someone who is Amil sounds like they agree with you, but you must understand they believe the NC and the MK is Now. In other words they agree with my position only they believe that the MK/NC is NOW as opposed to commensing at the second coming of Christ.
                  I concur with those with the discernment to understand and acknowledge that the new covenant is NOW active. I don't question where they belong in the Premil, PreTrib, Amil debate - that's a debate for another time.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                    Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                    Yes, sounds like you agree that they're 2 separate concepts though intrinsically linked, one is the Foundation and one is the House.
                    You couldn't have put it better: intrinsically linked is the key! Since the foundation cannot be separated from the house, also the blood of Jesus cannot be separated from the N.C.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                      I concur with those with the discernment to understand and acknowledge that the new covenant is NOW active. I don't question where they belong in the Premil, PreTrib, Amil debate - that's a debate for another time.
                      I know you don't care where they belong, I just want to you to understand that they don't divorce the MK/NC in regards to timing like you do.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                        While the text points to the second coming, it is, however, undeniable that "all Israel" does not include the unbelievers among them.
                        I don't know why you keep mentioning this but yes i agree.

                        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                        Therefore, those who are saved denote the Jewish believers who are grafted back into the olive tree (Jesus). By believing in Christ, their sins are forgiven by the blood of the new covenant (Heb 10:16-17). Another proof that the New Covenant is now in effect.
                        No idea how thats a proof that the NC is in effect as you said this passage clearly put the "Covenant with them"(excluding the gentiles) at the second Coming. You claimed before that this passage did not refer to the NC so in your view what is the Name of this Covenant mentioned by Paul in Romans 11:26-27?



                        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                        I understand your argument here because the people in view are still in this present age, ie. before Jesus returns. If you look at Zech 14:2 Jerusalem capitulates to the Beast's army; the majority escapes into the desert. Those who remain are massacred, their wives raped, etc. This is the time of the Great Tribulation, but 3.5 years later, the Messiah returns and defeats the Beast at Armageddon.
                        And they remain in mortal bodies.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                          Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                          Yes, I think we agree on A lot of things more than which is why I really hope you don't think I have any animosity towards you, I truly don't, it's just dishearting(poor word choice maybe) when we are so close to agreeing and you end up going in another direction.

                          We agree The Foundation and the House cannot work apart, but all of that we see now is what is accomplished "by the Blood" in other words I believe people even today are still coming "Under the Blood" in the future(when the covenant is established) people will join themselves to the Covenant (or to the Kingdom) for example Isaiah 14:1. Just read what the blood does in Rev 5:9 with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
                          Obviously Rev 5:9 corroborates with Heb 10:17 as the redemptive blood for believing kindreds of the earth. Again, one has to be in Christ (New Covenant) to be redeemed and forgiven by his blood.

                          Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                          That's what I believe Paul is trying to explain in Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

                          My question for you in this post.

                          Full Inclusion into what?

                          My Position- The goal of God in my view is to have the Israelites in mortal bodies living in the Holy land under a covenant relationship, while we the church are formed into the temple of God that dwells in the midst of the MK.
                          To answer your question, Paul wants Israel to be grafted back into the olive tree which is Christ.

                          Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                          Ephesians 2:19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him, the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him, you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

                          See there we have our analogy again of the building, what I'm saying is the whole building together is the NC/MK, But I do not believe that the "whole building is now Joined together and has already risen" I believe that part is still future. Which is what I Keep saying we are now "under the blood".

                          My view is that we are all "under the blood", the blood of Christ frees the Israelites from the Law and grants Gentiles forgiveness of sins. When we are a Kingdom I believe that we will be governed by the NC, which includes the Full Inclusion of Israel in their place. In my View, the Blood has its own role and the NC is future. I hope that makes sense!
                          Paul made the case that the Gentile and the Jew are now one in Christ.

                          Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

                          12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

                          13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

                          14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;


                          1. Verse 11-12 The Gentiles, separated from Israel in the OT age are now integrated (spiritually speaking) with Israel.
                          2. Verse 13-14 By death, Jesus broke down the middle wall of partition that separates the Jew and Gentile, thus making us one.
                          3. Thus the new covenant is no longer exclusively for Israel.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                            Yea the above post is a good example of you ignoring everything I said so you could just repeat your personal view again. You didn't address one statement i actually made.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              Obviously Rev 5:9 corroborates with Heb 10:17 as the redemptive blood for believing kindreds of the earth. Again, one has to be in Christ (New Covenant) to be redeemed and forgiven by his blood.
                              No idea what you mean here Rev 5:9 corroborates to Hebrew 9:11-14 which comes before the part about Jesus becoming the "Mediator" or the NC in Hebrews 9:15. You seem to want to Jump the gun and add NC into everywhere we mention the Blood. The Blood is the Foundation the NC is the House. The House does come before the foundation as you claim above. One has to Accept the Blood to be able to be a part of the Future NC.

                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              To answer your question, Paul wants Israel to be grafted back into the olive tree which is Christ.
                              You seem to have jumped ahead in the passage to when Paul started to talk about the Gentiles, try focusing on Israel in verses Romans 11:1-12. What was Israel seeking that they "did not attain" what did the *Election Obtain* while the rest were blinded. What does the *Full Inclusion* of Israel look like?

                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              Paul made the case that the Gentile and the Jew are now one in Christ. Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
                              13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

                              1. Verse 11-12 The Gentiles, separated from Israel in the OT age are now integrated (spiritually speaking) with Israel.
                              2. Verse 13-14 By death, Jesus broke down the middle wall of partition that separates the Jew and Gentile, thus making us one.
                              3. Thus the new covenant is no longer exclusively for Israel.
                              Once more All this is accomplished by the BLOOD OF CHRIST no NC needed here which is the point! You're still quoting passages about the blood and lumping in the NC but all these passages go forward and speak of a time when the NC is actually active, that's why I'm in Ephesians 2:19-22 and you're quoting and making points out of verse 11-13.

                              IOW you keep talking about the House as if it is the Foundation when it is NOT all passages that speak about the NC Usually mention that it was Established *BY THE BLOOD* the Blood comes first!

                              Comment


                              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                                Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                                I didn't claim the above.
                                Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                                No what i'm saying is you go Ra Ra when ever someone who is Amil sounds like they agree with you, but you must understand they believe the NC and the MK is Now. In other words they agree with my position only they believe that the MK/NC is NOW as opposed to commensing at the second coming of Christ.
                                I was responding to the above post #907.

                                Comment

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