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  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I outlined why I didn't believe the NC was active and none of the passages you have quoted so far to me establish how. All you do is claim the NC is necessary to fulfill all the things the NT claims are fulfilled by the Blood of Christ. Once more if you want me to accept the NC is active now this is what I need you to show to make me believe that the NC is now operative.

    1. the Gathering ALL the Exiles
    2. The cleansing of Sin of the Nation of Israel
    3. The title of "My People" for Israel
    4. the Sanctuary of God is in the Midst of Israel forever more.
    5. Judah + Israel is One Kingdom Living in the Land
    6. Jesus is King on the Throne of David.
    1. The exiles have already being gathered. Exile requires one to be forced out of his homeland. The Jews outside their homeland today are not EXILES, they are called the "diaspora" - there's a difference because any of them can return to Israel whenever they wish. The next will be of Jewish believers gathering to Jesus.

    2. The cleansing of the nation of Israel started at Pentecost. When the Holy Ghost came upon the disciples and they started speaking tongues, the Jews gathered and wondered at what was going on. Peter addressed them and reminded them that what they have witnessed was prophesied by Joel. In the end, their conscious was 'pricked' and they asked Peter "what shall we do"? Peter told them to repent and be baptised (Acts 2).

    3. My People denotes all the faithful in Christ - not only Jews! See Gal 3:27-28

    4. God's sanctuary in Jerusalem will be established when Jesus returns. This has nothing to do with the new covenant being active presently.

    5. Israel + Judah living as one is already being fulfilled as it denotes Jewish believers in Christ. Can you hand on heart, swear that you know for sure that there was not a single disciple that was from the supposed lost tribe of Israel? Because even if only one among them was from Israel, then the prophecy is fulfilled.

    6. Jesus will be King when he returns, again it doesn't negate the fact the NC is now active.

    Comment


    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

      Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
      I don't think you really understand what your belief is putting forth. Under the auspices of the kingdom, whether it be the KOH or the KOG, under the rites and privileges of the kingdom, we ENTER the kingdom now (KOH/ KOG) but we can only inherit the KOG, and this inheritance is the salvation that we enter into in the form of this corruptible putting on incorruption. A simple explanation of this principal is:

      *[[Heb 9:28]] KJV* So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

      This is the inheritance of our salvation. Every reference to our kingdom inheritance is of a future time when we put on the cloak of eternal life. But yet you claim that under the rites and privileges of the new covenant, we "inherit salvation" in an ongoing basis where the covenant is instituted now. Unless it is presented in a denoted "past tense[I am not aware of any]", the use of heir or inheritance speaks of something that we have not yet acquired. But you insist that the "eternal inheritance" of Hebrews 9:15 is our inherited salvation, in the present time. With that being said, you have shown no other scriptures portraying the inheritance of the new covenant. I guess because you have extensively denied that the inheritance of the new covenant is not a future inheritance, you cannot accept that it is something other than the here and now salvation that you proffer.

      Maybe it would help if you could see that the new covenant is that of a man going off into a far country and promises to pay his servants when he returns. But he is gone for a very long time.

      Verse list:
      Mat 21:33-43 KJV Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The KINGDOM of GOD shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

      This parable is one of the few times that Matthew speaks of the KOG, in contrast to his use of the KOH. When you understand that Matthew NEVER speaks of inheriting the KOH, nor does any other NT writer, perhaps you can see that KOG refers to the inheritance that is received at the return of the king. Matthew is the only gospel writer that uses the phrase kingdom of heaven AND the word church, and we surprisingly find both used in accord with each other.

      *[[Mat 16:18]] KJV* And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
      19. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
      The KOH is the kingdom that is built upon the foundation and principles of the apostles and prophets.

      *[[Eph 2:20]] KJV* And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

      *[[Luk 22:29]] KJV* And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
      *[[Luk 22:30]] KJV* That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

      We "enter" the kingdom that is built upon the apostles and prophets when we believe the gospel message that is presented to us, founded by Jesus. But we will only "inherit" the kingdom that is headed up by Jesus... When he returns. The same thing is the principle of the new covenant. We enter into it now, but we inherit things later.

      *[[2Ti 4:1]] KJV* I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

      Blessings. The PuP
      Truth is that you are confusing the topic. Actually, you are the one missing the sequence of events. You are obviously making the case that the new covenant is supposed to start when we "enter" into the kingdom. But this position couldn't be further from the truth! Rather it is the NC with its character of forgiveness of sin that qualifies one to enter the kingdom. Salvation and eternal life is an irrevocable promise made by an immutable God. Its reality is after the resurrection/rapture. But you need the NC to be eligible to partake of the kingdom. Those who enter the Kingdom would have been made perfect at resurrection/rapture and there's no forgiveness of sin for those who are perfect and righteous.

      The new covenant is operative since Pentecost.

      Your position obviously is blighted by your inability to grasp the basic essence of the new covenant. I have availed you with several scriptures, e.g. Heb 10:14-18 to this effect which you ignored in preference to your errant narrative nonetheless.

      This is very simple to understand if people can approach scripture with objectivity. In Heb 8 & 9, the Bible made the case for the validity of the NC by highlighting the weakness of the former (Heb 8:7). In Heb 9:13-14 we are told that as the blood of goat and calves were the cornerstone of the OC, albeit imperfect, the blood of Jesus does even better in the new. In Heb 10 (see verses above) we have in plain unambiguous language, the essence of the new covenant which is primarily for the forgiveness of sin.

      You expediently chose to ignore the above in pursuit of "entering into the kingdom" without first addressing the criteria that qualify one to enter the kingdom.

      Comment


      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
        Truth is that you are confusing the topic. Actually, you are the one missing the sequence of events. You are obviously making the case that the new covenant is supposed to start when we "enter" into the kingdom. But this position couldn't be further from the truth! Rather it is the NC with its character of forgiveness of sin that qualifies one to enter the kingdom. Salvation and eternal life is an irrevocable promise made by an immutable God. Its reality is after the resurrection/rapture. But you need the NC to be eligible to partake of the kingdom. Those who enter the Kingdom would have been made perfect at resurrection/rapture and there's no forgiveness of sin for those who are perfect and righteous.

        The new covenant is operative since Pentecost.

        Your position obviously is blighted by your inability to grasp the basic essence of the new covenant. I have availed you with several scriptures, e.g. Heb 10:14-18 to this effect which you ignored in preference to your errant narrative nonetheless.

        This is very simple to understand if people can approach scripture with objectivity. In Heb 8 & 9, the Bible made the case for the validity of the NC by highlighting the weakness of the former (Heb 8:7). In Heb 9:13-14 we are told that as the blood of goat and calves were the cornerstone of the OC, albeit imperfect, the blood of Jesus does even better in the new. In Heb 10 (see verses above) we have in plain unambiguous language, the essence of the new covenant which is primarily for the forgiveness of sin.

        You expediently chose to ignore the above in pursuit of "entering into the kingdom" without first addressing the criteria that qualify one to enter the kingdom.
        Have you been converted? Have you repented and believed with your heart and confessed Jesus before men? You act like one of us has a complicated view of salvation.
        *[[Mat 18:3]] KJV* And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

        *[[Mat 23:13]] KJV* But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them THAT ARE ENTERING to go in.

        Have you entered into his kingdom? Or do you believe that entering and inheriting are one and the same thing?

        You have stated numerous times that the inheritance of the new covenant is our salvation of the here and now. Are you disagreeing with that now? Other than your contention that inheritance found in Hebrews 9:15 refers to the here and now salvation, you have not shown one example any where in scripture that agrees with that view. Your view has not value in disagreeing with a view that you can't rebut with scripture.
        Unless you can support your view of how you define inheritance, there is no value in continuing this discussion.


        Blessings
        The PuP

        Comment


        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          It would have been easier to respond to this post properly if it had been directed to someone.
          It was directed at the post above it.

          Comment


          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

            All this debate over milk is going to create some wonderful butter.
            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

            Comment


            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
              The way you wrote the above piece makes it difficult to respond.
              I wanted everyone to see how your position changes and contradicts itself.



              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
              1. Until you understand who is God's "people" you'll never understand how this prophecy has been fulfilled. Since the first advent, those who are God's people denote believers across the board, i.e Jew and Gentile. It started with the Jewish disciples and spread out to the Apostles which included Gentiles, e.g. the Greek Apostles like Titus, etc. And from this number, it grew to the expanded body of Christ today. Of course, it's easy to believe that "My People" is exclusively Israel. But I can tell you that such a definition is wrong.
              I don't believe any christian currently believe that Israeli Nation is "Gods people". All these passages speak of a time when Israel will be Gods people. Since they're not I don't believe the NC is active

              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
              2. The New Covenant started on the cross and will extend into the millennium. It is an everlasting covenant, thus it has no end and God's sanctuary will be established in Jerusalem when his kingdom comes down from heaven.
              Correct, on the cross the blood of the NC was shed. But the Sanctuary will not be in Jerusalem is not Now But when "his Kingdom comes down from Heaven".

              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
              3. There will be a national Jewish revival in the end times when the Two Witnesses comes. Honestly, I don't know where you are going with these questions because the NC promises to cleanse Israel of sin started after Jesus died. To claim it will only happen after Jesus returns don't make sense since such position ignores the apostles and every other Jew since 1st century that has given their lives to Christ and thus received forgiveness of sin.
              I disagree these passages do not exclude any Jew that has recieved Christ, as the bible says those people are "The ELECTION" chosen by Grace. The rest of ISREAL was Blinded.

              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
              4. Isaiah 4:2-4 and Ezek 36:24 is being fulfilled in those who come to Christ. v-4 when the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning.Pay attention to the sentence; this prophecy may have been future to Isaiah's time, but it's definitely happening in our time now.
              You're clearly out of your depth here. The Ezekiel 36:24 that I quoted clearly is not fullfilled from the Christ and you saying "Yes they have" is not evidence of it actually being fullfilled. Show me evidence whether historical or biblical that Ezekiel 36:24-38 is a current reality. Show me Evidence Isaiah 4:2-4 is a currently reality that Today that Jersualem has been "cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning." Show me how now in Jersulem where this is a current reality. Then the Lord will create over the whole site of Mount Zion and over her assemblies a cloud by day, and smoke and the shining of a flaming fire by night; for over all the glory there will be a canopy. 6 There will be a booth for shade by day from the heat, and for a refuge and a shelter from the storm and rain.



              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
              All these started at Pentecost. And the new covenant has ALREADY started.
              You're just saying this but you offer no proof, which is why i personally do not believe it.



              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
              Paul wasn't suggesting that the new covenant is in the future.
              No he isn't "Suggesting" it He excplitily states it. Romans 11:25 Do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is[f] my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

              You're the one who denied it was the NC so please once more either admit you were wrong and this passage is about the NC or tell me the name of this third covenant that established the salvation of Israel by removing their blindness/hardening.

              Comment


              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                Your analogy missed the crucial point. The OC was ratified when Moses sprinkled the blood upon the people of Israel, not when he went up to mount Sinai.


                Ex 24:5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the Lord.


                6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
                7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.
                8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words.

                No Trivalee, You my Friend Have MADE my Point and for that I thank you!


                This is Exactly what I've been saying the OC was established when the Blood is sprinkled "ON THE PEOPLE". Above you outlined the Order Just like is Outlined in Hebrews 9:18-28. So now unless you can prove that Hebrews 12:22-26 happened when Jesus died on the Cross or anytime since then. The NC is clearly not active until we all appear in Heaven and get the blood of Christ sprinkled ON US.

                22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
                23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
                24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
                25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:


                Now all you have to do is establish from your doctrine when this blood sprinkling took Place.

                TO me this will be fulfilled
                IN THE FUTURE as Shown to John In REV 5.

                Comment


                • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  1. The exiles have already being gathered. Exile requires one to be forced out of his homeland. The Jews outside their homeland today are not EXILES, they are called the "diaspora" - there's a difference because any of them can return to Israel whenever they wish. The next will be of Jewish believers gathering to Jesus.
                  I disagree the Exiles have not all been Gathered from all the nations by the Messiah.


                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  2. The cleansing of the nation of Israel started at Pentecost. When the Holy Ghost came upon the disciples and they started speaking tongues, the Jews gathered and wondered at what was going on. Peter addressed them and reminded them that what they have witnessed was prophesied by Joel. In the end, their conscious was 'pricked' and they asked Peter "what shall we do"? Peter told them to repent and be baptised (Acts 2).
                  I don't believe this was the cleansing of Israel mentioned in the passage I quoted, many rejected Jesus and I see no evidence that this was the fullfillment of prophesies such as Zech 12-14.


                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  3. My People denotes all the faithful in Christ - not only Jews! See Gal 3:27-28
                  How does Paul reply to claims such as the one you made here. See Romans 11:1-7


                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  4. God's sanctuary in Jerusalem will be established when Jesus returns. This has nothing to do with the new covenant being active presently.
                  It does to me! As you Said it will be Established when Jesus returns so that's when I will believe the NC is active.


                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  5. Israel + Judah living as one is already being fulfilled as it denotes Jewish believers in Christ. Can you hand on heart, swear that you know for sure that there was not a single disciple that was from the supposed lost tribe of Israel? Because even if only one among them was from Israel, then the prophecy is fulfilled.
                  Honestly quotes like this sound to me like a mockery of the word of God. Ezekiel 37:21b Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and bring them to their own land. 22 And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols and their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions. But I will save them from all the backslidings in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.


                  24“My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes. 25They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children’s children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever. 26I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28Then the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”


                  When I read the Word of God here it is clear to me what you're saying "if only one among them was from Israel, then the prophecy is fulfilled" is a mockery of what God said here this prophecy clearly HAS NOT been fulfilled.


                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  6. Jesus will be King when he returns, again it doesn't negate the fact the NC is now active.
                  Once More in my View, it Does, Read Ezekiel 37 until everything God promised in that passage and others is a Present reality it negates any idea that the NC is now active.

                  From your admission that many of these aspects will not be present until Jesus comes again, it is clear to me that though you disagree with my position, you can't actually dispute it. Your view just doesn't require God to fulfill his word exactly as promised for the NC to be Active. So now that we have cleared that up maybe you can outline what i would have to show you to prove that the NC is Not active (that sounds like a Fun challenge).

                  Comment


                  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                    All this debate over milk is going to create some wonderful butter.
                    I think it is winding down now, but since this is the only thread I'm currently on I'll miss it when it's done .

                    Debating with Trivalee is just always such a blast! Don't feel left out buddy.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                      Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                      I think it is winding down now, but since this is the only thread I'm currently on I'll miss it when it's done .

                      Debating with Trivalee is just always such a blast! Don't feel left out buddy.
                      I'm afraid Triv and I agree on this particular topic
                      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                        I'm afraid Triv and I agree on this particular topic
                        I'm sure he will take your post here as encouragement then, ,most of those who agree with me made their points and left many a posts ago, accept for Pup I don't think even now Trivalee grasps exactly what he is saying, but I hold out hope maybe i can reach Trivalee.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                          Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                          I'm sure he will take your post here as encouragement then,
                          Maybe.

                          ,most of those who agree with me made their points and left many a posts ago,
                          It's strange to me that anyone would agree but there are a lot of "interesting" beliefs out there.

                          accept for Pup I don't think even now Trivalee grasps exactly what he is saying, but I hold out hope maybe i can reach Trivalee.
                          Well, your belief about the NC is wrong but each person will decide that for themselves. Also, I would suggest exchanging that highlighted word for "except". Take care.
                          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                            Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                            Maybe. It's strange to me that anyone would agree but there are a lot of "interesting" beliefs out there.

                            Well, your belief about the NC is wrong but each person will decide that for themselves. Also, I would suggest exchanging that highlighted word for "except". Take care.
                            Editing takes to long so i'll leave it as is, everyone is entitled to their opinions, I could easily say your belief in the NC is wrong, but i think it's more apt to say I *disagree* even though I personally do think it's wrong and I've clearly spent a massive amount of time explaining why. To me the words outlining who this NC is for are as plain as day. How someone can read Jeremiah 30:1-3, then read the words of God outlined in Jeremiah 30:4-24 & Jeremiah 31:1-39 and believe that now this is currently happening or happened in at the cross and is ongoing today really just blows my mind. I'm confused how exactly i could be wrong that it's not happening at this moment, but here you are telling me I am. If i'm wrong i'm wrong but I just see no evidence to support the belief that the NC is now.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                              Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                              Editing takes to long so i'll leave it as is
                              Gotcha

                              I'm confused how exactly i could be wrong that it's not happening at this moment, but here you are telling me I am. If i'm wrong i'm wrong but I just see no evidence to support the belief that the NC is now.
                              And I don't understand how someone could have that position based on so many NT scriptures regarding Christ and his blood and death. It is quite clear the NC did begin at the end of the cross. Staring doesn't mean everything is done...it's a start. Yes, there are things that manifest later but it's a very weak position to argue the covenant is not in effect now at least the beginning of it and 2000 years is quite a beginning.
                              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                                Gotcha
                                And I don't understand how someone could have that position based on so many NT scriptures regarding Christ and his blood and death. It is quite clear the NC did begin at the end of the cross. Staring doesn't mean everything is done...it's a start. Yes, there are things that manifest later but it's a very weak position to argue the covenant is not in effect now at least the beginning of it and 2000 years is quite a beginning.
                                Not surprised you took the time to edit out the passages I quoted but that doesn't make them go away. Its simple to me when God has done all the things outlined in Jeremiah 31-32, Ezekiel 36-39 and all the other passages that speak of the Everlasting or New Covenant I will believe it is in effect.

                                Amil believe in a spiritual fulfillment so to me they have a strong position.

                                To me Premils like you and Trivelee are in a weak position because you actually believe all these prophesies are going to be fulfilled during the MK you just deny they have any connection to the New Covenant/ Everlasting Covenant.

                                I mean how can you read the NC being established in those days in Jermiah 31:31 and disconnect it from those "days" at that preface the book. Jeremiah 30:1-3 starts, The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel: Write in a book all the words that I have spoken to you. 3 For behold, days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will restore the fortunes of my people, Israel and Judah, says the Lord, and I will bring them back to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall take possession of it.”

                                The "book" he writes ends in Jeremiah 31:39 do you believe that "those days" refers to the day Jesus was on the cross? If not what NT scriptures about Christ and his blood and death establish a different day?

                                Comment

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