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  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I asked for the references, I don't see anything in Romans 9 or Isaiah 45. Also do you mind outlining what aspects of the NC you believe are not in effect?
    The New Covenant is split into bits where some are active and others "suspended" to the future!

    Comment


    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

      EDIT Post #976

      What I meant is that the New Covenant is NOT split into bits whereby some are now operative and others reversed for the future!

      Comment


      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

        Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
        The only logical way to do this, is to be able to prove that O.T. Judaism is correct, and N.T. Christianity is invalid.

        If the NC is not operative today, Christianity does not exist.
        No idea what you're talking about.

        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
        EDIT Post #976

        What I meant is that the New Covenant is NOT split into bits whereby some are now operative and others reversed for the future!
        I agree either all of Jeremiah 30-31 and Ezekiel 36-39 is now operative and fulfilled or None.

        Comment


        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          Looks like you are playing to the gallery because I made a distinction between the gathered exiles from the Babylonian captivity and those gathering to Christ by faith now and in the future. If you can't figure out the difference between these two - there's not much I can do to help you.
          I can figure out the difference my question for you is which group fulfilled Jeremiah 30:1-3?

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          Blinded by God? Where did you read that? You make it look like God is wicked and partial and by blinding some Jews and leaving others considering the Apostles and other Jewish converts since the 1st century.
          No thats the result of your doctrine not mine. If you're looking for passages that say that God blinded them Read Romans 11:7-8. You're the one claiming these people should be excluded from the NC. Also, Jesus himself said it go read the passage that explained why he spoke in parables See Matt 13:10

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          I didn't say anything about the temple; the NJ is the holy city where the believers will dwell. It is the promised "land"!
          I quoted Ezekiel 37:27-29 the passage says that Eze 37:27Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.


          I said this has not happened, then you claimed QuoteTrivalee "You are obviously confused and thus you conflate the new covenant with the New Jerusalem." In what universe did I conflate the NJ with the NC?????

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          I think you have serious issues with your understanding of prophecy. You obviously can't tell the difference between prophecies that have been fulfilled and those in the future. So let me ask you, is the land of Israel lying in desolation now?
          Better question dod the Land of Israel lie in desolation after the Cross? Is Zech 12-14 already fulfilled??? You seem to be the one unable to tell between prophecies that have been fulfilled and those that are in the future.


          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          Because you have already made up your mind to disregard valid scriptures and argument showing you up to be in error.
          However you want to rationalize it, I presented my challenge you failed to explain How all of Ezekiel 36-39 and Jeremiah 30-31 was fulfilled from the moment Jesus died on the cross, how is that my fault?

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          In Rom 11:26-27 Paul reminded his readers that this is the "covenant" as in the "present" tense. There is nothing that qualifies his statement as in referring to the future.
          Who cares about "When" you claimed it wasn't about the NC anyway, SO what is this Covenant since in your view it's not NC, so whats it About tells ME PLZ.

          Comment


          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

            Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
            Originally posted by David Taylor
            The only logical way to do this, is to be able to prove that O.T. Judaism is correct, and N.T. Christianity is invalid.
            Originally posted by Jesuslovesus
            f the NC is not operative today, Christianity does not exist.
            Tell me what do I need to show you to prove that the NC is not operative today now?
            No idea what you're talking about.
            If the New Covenant is not operative now, then there is no Christianity, and we should all be practicing Orthodox Judaism.
            Jesus is YHWH the eternal Great I AM.
            • Jesus said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I AM from above: ye are of this world; I AM not of this world. if ye believe not that I AM He, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:23
            • " I YHWH the LORD, the first, and with the last; I AM He. Thus saith YHWH the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer YHWH the LORD of hosts; I AM the first, and I AM the last; and beside me there is no God.” Isaiah 41:4,44:6
            • "And [the son of Man] laid his right hand upon me, saying Fear not; I AM the first and the last: I AM He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I AM alive for evermore. These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive" Rev 1:17, 2:8
            • "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Rev 22:12

            Comment


            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

              Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
              If the New Covenant is not operative now, then there is no Christianity, and we should all be practicing Orthodox Judaism.
              First just to make sure I understand your position you're Amil right? Second I don't think you truly understand what Orthodox Judaism is from your claim above. Just to set the record straight I don't believe in the superiority of the Talmud to that of the Tanakh. I do however believe - in a future resurrection of the dead, divine reward and punishment for the righteous and the sinners, the Election of Israel, and an eventual restoration of the Temple in Jerusalem under the Messiah. If you are Amil, I think you deny those things right specifically the Election of Israel and eventual restoration of the temple in Jerusalem under the Messiah. If I'm wrong about your beliefs and what they mean let me know. But once more I don't believe that no NC means that the Talmud is superior to the Tanakh or that this is what Judaism as a religion actually was as given by Moses from God to the nation of Israel.

              Comment


              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                Sure the bible is Nuanced during the 1878 period that the Jews were expelled from Israel they were not Exiles.. Let's just go with that..., When Jeremiah 30:1-3 says that God will bring back his people from captivity and do all the things mentioned for them in the book (including the NC) he was talking about the return from babylon not there future restoration under there messiah. Is that the *Nuance* I'm missing?
                Glad you mentioned 1878 when the concept of Zionism was formed. However, since the restoration of the nation of Israel in 1948 (the Dry bone Lives!! Ezek 37) Jewish 'exile' has technically ended.

                Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                That's what I'm telling you is a fact what "you believe" and what the scripture says are two different things. Want proof? Tell me is all of Ezekiel 36-39 fulfilled, How about all of Jeremiah 30-31? I can show you clear examples where your beliefs contradict scripture, all you can show is where my beliefs don't line up with yours. Another example who does Jeremiah 31:31 say the NC is made with? I only read Judah+Israel I don't make any arguments to include other groups, that's your prerogative.
                What is most unfortunate is that despite presenting several scriptural proofs that the new covenant is now active, yet you start every new post with a request for 'proof'? And, "tell me whether Ezek 35, etc, etc, has been fulfilled?

                Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                You're not even quoting the same passages I am I say verses 1-7 you're down in 21-24, the passage says the Tree, and you're saying Jesus is the Vine as if the Tree and the Vine are the same things.
                Whether I said Vine or Tree, it's a common mistake that the mature reader can easily understand where I'm coming from. Paul started from Rom 11:1-7 to lay out the case concerning Israel. He explained why they are cast out presently and went on from verses 21-24 to affirm that they will be grafted in if they believe. Surely you can see the consistency in the narrative?

                Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                Clearly not, I believe everything in Jeremiah 30-31 and Ezekiel 36-39 will be fulfilled as written, you claim it is already been fulfilled (at least partially) and seek to Explain how in your view it has been. SO WHO is really miles apart from what scripture says, the Guy claiming God will keep his word exactly as stated or the guy trying to explain how certain parts have been done and other will be but still its all fulfilled?
                The new covenant has been fulfilled! It is really sad that as a believing Christian you don't even realise you are participating in it. It is also an everlasting covenant and has no end. It will extend into the MK and beyond.

                Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                Really scripture says that the Exiles being gathered means: accepting their messiah? Quote the passages...
                Scripture says that Cyrus was the Messiah and that his gathering of the Exiles was fulfillment of Jeremiah 30:1-3 Show the passages.

                Scripture says the NC will be established with the Gentiles nations and is not limited to Judah and Israel, Show the passages. I can support my view with scripture, unfortunately your view is more "nuanced".
                I have not once mentioned Cyrus in any of my posts, yet you'll intentionally misquote or attribute someone else's comments to me because you can't stay on the straight and narrow with me. I will not comment on remarks I didn't make, sir.

                Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                Help me out then, I outlined to you what you would have to provide for me to change my position, you admitted you can't. Tell me what do I need to show you to prove that the NC is not operative today now?
                Maybe you enjoy repetition - it's just not my style. Sorry.

                Comment


                • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  Glad you mentioned 1878 when the concept of Zionism was formed. However, since the restoration of the nation of Israel in 1948 (the Dry bone Lives!! Ezek 37) Jewish 'exile' has technically ended.
                  Oh, it didn't end when Jesus died on the cross? Then how does your position make any sense?


                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  What is most unfortunate is that despite presenting several scriptural proofs that the new covenant is now active, yet you start every new post with a request for 'proof'? And, "tell me whether Ezek 35, etc, etc, has been fulfilled?
                  You literally have presented 0 scriptures to establish that OT prophesies that speak of the NC/Eternal Covenant is now active.
                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  Whether I said Vine or Tree, it's a common mistake that the mature reader can easily understand where I'm coming from. Paul started from Rom 11:1-7 to lay out the case concerning Israel. He explained why they are cast out presently and went on from verses 21-24 to affirm that they will be grafted in if they believe.
                  The olive tree isn't Jesus, so the fact that he is the vine just shows your personal confusion


                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  Surely you can see the consistency in the narrative?
                  I don't see the consistency with what Paul is preaching and you are saying.


                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  The new covenant has been fulfilled!
                  Clearly not but say it more maybe that will make it a reality.


                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  It is really sad that as a believing Christian you don't even realize you are participating in it.
                  I don't currently live in Israel and I don't follow the Law so I know for sure I'm not participating in it and neither are you. You honestly sound delusional, you don't even know your personal place in God's plan for the future.


                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  It is also an everlasting covenant and has no end. It will extend into the MK and beyond.
                  Ok
                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  I have not once mentioned Cyrus in any of my posts, yet you'll intentionally misquote or attribute someone else's comments to me because you can't stay on the straight and narrow with me. I will not comment on remarks I didn't make, sir.
                  You mentioned the Babylonian exile which brings Cyrus into the discussion.


                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  Maybe you enjoy repetition - it's just not my style. Sorry.
                  Not asking for repetition I'm asking what you would consider proof that the NC is not active, I told you what I would consider proof and it's clear you have not and cannot produce any so at this point my position stands uncontested by you, all you can do is offer yours as contrast.


                  At least mine is in line with scriptures. When all of Jeremiah 30-31 and Ezekiel 36-39 is Fulfilled (and other prophesies that speak of the NC/Eternal Covenant) then I will believe it is active.


                  If you believe that nothing will ever convince you that the NC couldn't possibly be now then we can conclude this discussion.


                  1. We can agree that you are unable to prove that all OT prophesies that speak of the NC/Eternal Covenant are fulfilled.
                  2. We can agree that nothing anyone puts forth ever will convince you that your position is wrong so we should all save our typing fingers.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                    Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
                    The only logical way to do this, is to be able to prove that O.T. Judaism is correct, and N.T. Christianity is invalid.

                    If the NC is not operative today, Christianity does not exist.
                    Exactly. .. . . . .

                    Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
                    The only logical way to do this, is to be able to prove that O.T. Judaism is correct, and N.T. Christianity is invalid.

                    If the NC is not operative today, Christianity does not exist.
                    Exactly. .. . . . .
                    A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

                    מקום כניעה סך הכל

                    Comment


                    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                      who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth; for one is God, one also is mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus, who did give himself a ransom for all -- the testimony in its own times -- 1 Tim 2:4-6
                      and to a mediator of a new covenant -- Jesus, and to blood of sprinkling, speaking better things than that of Abel! Heb 12:24

                      who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth; for one is God, one also is mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus, who did give himself a ransom for all -- the testimony in its own times -- 1 Tim 2:4-6
                      and to a mediator of a new covenant -- Jesus, and to blood of sprinkling, speaking better things than that of Abel! Heb 12:24

                      Comment


                      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                        Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                        Oh, it didn't end when Jesus died on the cross? Then how does your position make any sense?
                        Your post is becoming ever more erratic. Perhaps I should just ignore these vacuous remarks that have no relation to what I said.

                        Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                        The olive tree isn't Jesus, so the fact that he is the vine just shows your personal confusion
                        JLU, I hate that our lively debate is turning into cheap shots because you keep ignoring the substance in pursuit of the inconsequential. Can you at least make the effort to focus on what matters?

                        According to Paul's analogy in Rom 11, Jesus clearly denotes the Olive tree (see below) yet you called me 'confused' for saying so.

                        Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root [Jesus] be holy, so are the branches.
                        Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches [Israel] be broken off, and thou [Gentiles], being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;


                        I don't know anyone that can interpret the Olive tree in the context to be anything but Jesus.

                        Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                        I don't currently live in Israel and I don't follow the Law so I know for sure I'm not participating in it and neither are you. You honestly sound delusional, you don't even know your personal place in God's plan for the future.
                        1. There's nothing in the new covenant that requires a Gentile Christian to live in Israel to 'participate' in it.
                        2. Since you believe am delusional for saying that Christians are now participating in the new covenant, I will gladly own that delusion.

                        Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                        Not asking for repetition I'm asking what you would consider proof that the NC is not active, I told you what I would consider proof and it's clear you have not and cannot produce any so at this point my position stands uncontested by you, all you can do is offer yours as contrast.

                        At least mine is in line with scriptures. When all of Jeremiah 30-31 and Ezekiel 36-39 is Fulfilled (and other prophesies that speak of the NC/Eternal Covenant) then I will believe it is active.

                        If you believe that nothing will ever convince you that the NC couldn't possibly be now then we can conclude this discussion.

                        1. We can agree that you are unable to prove that all OT prophesies that speak of the NC/Eternal Covenant are fulfilled.
                        2. We can agree that nothing anyone puts forth ever will convince you that your position is wrong so we should all save our typing fingers.
                        1. I will accept that the new covenant is not active now IF Jesus had not DIED.
                        2. I will also accept that the new covenant is not operative if God had not sent down the Holy Ghost.
                        3. I will concede that the new covenant is not yet active IF there is no provision for the blood of Jesus to FORGIVE SIN.
                        4. I will accept that the new covenant has not started if we are still under the Law.

                        But if you believe you are right, then all the best.

                        Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                        Oh, it didn't end when Jesus died on the cross? Then how does your position make any sense?
                        Your post is becoming ever more erratic. Perhaps I should just ignore these vacuous remarks that have no relation to what I said.

                        Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                        The olive tree isn't Jesus, so the fact that he is the vine just shows your personal confusion
                        JLU, I hate that our lively debate is turning into cheap shots because you keep ignoring the substance in pursuit of the inconsequential. Can you at least make the effort to focus on what matters?

                        According to Paul's analogy in Rom 11, Jesus clearly denotes the Olive tree (see below) yet you called me 'confused' for saying so.

                        Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root [Jesus] be holy, so are the branches.
                        Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches [Israel] be broken off, and thou [Gentiles], being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;


                        I don't know anyone that can interpret the Olive tree in the context to be anything but Jesus.

                        Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                        I don't currently live in Israel and I don't follow the Law so I know for sure I'm not participating in it and neither are you. You honestly sound delusional, you don't even know your personal place in God's plan for the future.
                        1. There's nothing in the new covenant that requires a Gentile Christian to live in Israel to 'participate' in it.
                        2. Since you believe am delusional for saying that Christians are now participating in the new covenant, I will gladly own that delusion.

                        Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                        Not asking for repetition I'm asking what you would consider proof that the NC is not active, I told you what I would consider proof and it's clear you have not and cannot produce any so at this point my position stands uncontested by you, all you can do is offer yours as contrast.

                        At least mine is in line with scriptures. When all of Jeremiah 30-31 and Ezekiel 36-39 is Fulfilled (and other prophesies that speak of the NC/Eternal Covenant) then I will believe it is active.

                        If you believe that nothing will ever convince you that the NC couldn't possibly be now then we can conclude this discussion.

                        1. We can agree that you are unable to prove that all OT prophesies that speak of the NC/Eternal Covenant are fulfilled.
                        2. We can agree that nothing anyone puts forth ever will convince you that your position is wrong so we should all save our typing fingers.
                        1. I will accept that the new covenant is not active now IF Jesus had not DIED.
                        2. I will also accept that the new covenant is not operative if God had not sent down the Holy Ghost.
                        3. I will concede that the new covenant is not yet active IF there is no provision for the blood of Jesus to FORGIVE SIN.
                        4. I will accept that the new covenant has not started if we are still under the Law.

                        But if you believe you are right, then all the best.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                          Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                          First just to make sure I understand your position you're Amil right? Second I don't think you truly understand what Orthodox Judaism is from your claim above. Just to set the record straight I don't believe in the superiority of the Talmud to that of the Tanakh. I do however believe - in a future resurrection of the dead, divine reward and punishment for the righteous and the sinners, the Election of Israel, and an eventual restoration of the Temple in Jerusalem under the Messiah. If you are Amil, I think you deny those things right specifically the Election of Israel and eventual restoration of the temple in Jerusalem under the Messiah. If I'm wrong about your beliefs and what they mean let me know. But once more I don't believe that no NC means that the Talmud is superior to the Tanakh or that this is what Judaism as a religion actually was as given by Moses from God to the nation of Israel.
                          So anyone who disagrees with you on this topic must be Amil, right? Just wondering

                          Comment


                          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                            Originally posted by percho View Post
                            who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth; for one is God, one also is mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus, who did give himself a ransom for all -- the testimony in its own times -- 1 Tim 2:4-6
                            and to a mediator of a new covenant -- Jesus, and to blood of sprinkling, speaking better things than that of Abel! Heb 12:24
                            Our friends who deny that the new covenant is now operative interpret the passages above to mean that Jesus is not yet the "mediator" but will be in the future.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                              Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                              There is evidence that Jesus currently sits on the Throne of David in Jerusalem ruling over a reunited house of Judah + Israel located in Canaan? That they're all keeping the law since it is written in their Hearts and Minds. Can you send me pictures whenever I look up Israel it says their leader is some guy named Benjamin. All my history books says they've were exiled for 1900+ years. What NT passage do you believe changes that reality just the references would help.
                              Again, if only you can be objective for a minute, maybe you'll understand that:

                              1. The NC is now active.
                              2. The law is now written in the hearts and minds of believers (John 14:26).
                              3. Unification of Israel + Judah refers to those who believe in Christ. e.g the disciples and apostles.
                              4. Since the new covenant is everlasting, Jesus sitting on the physical Throne in Jerusalem at his return will not negate its present active status.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                                I'm afraid Triv and I agree on this particular topic
                                Don't know how I missed this. Glad we agree on this, ewq1938.

                                Comment

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