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  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I asked for the references, I don't see anything in Romans 9 or Isaiah 45. Also do you mind outlining what aspects of the NC you believe are not in effect?
    Romans 9 says Christ came to Israel and the word of God didn't fail. That not all descendants of Israel belong to Israel and that flesh doesn't make anyone a child of God. This alone shoots down any argument that the NC is not in effect but as we continue through the chapter we see Paul go back to the beginning with Abraham and walk through Sara, Rebecca, Isaac, Jacob, Esau, Moses, Pharaoh, and finally verses 20-21 point to Isaiah 45 (specifically verses 9-10) where Cyrus, the anointed/Messiah/king and type of Christ, freed Israel from Babylon and returned them to their land. Why?
    Isa 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

    Isa 45:13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

    Isa 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

    Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

    Messiah (Cyrus/Jesus) freed Israel from Babylon and returned them to their land to bring "the righteousness of God" (another phrase almost everyone misunderstands; I have a thread on it) and salvation, which can only be found in the NC, which again, belongs to Israel -Rom 9:4, which is who? -Rom 9:7-8, 23-26

    Here's a few other things from Isaiah 45 Paul says in the NT.
    Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
    Isa 45:24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
    Isa 45:25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

    'Flesh counts for nothing', so it's the spiritual aspects of the kingdom that have come in part. They are the aspects of the NC Israel is currently beneficiaries of.

    Israel didn't seek God in vain Isa 45:19. Paul goes through this in 1Co 2:9 where he quotes Isa_64.
    Isa 64:1 Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,
    Isa 64:2 As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence!
    Isa 64:3 When thou didst terrible things which we looked not for, thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at thy presence.
    Isa 64:4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
    Isa 64:5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
    Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
    Isa 64:7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
    Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

    Do you think Paul quotes this stuff because it didn't happen? C'mon. Learn what "the righteousness of God" means. There's no way to conclude God came for Israel, she was no where to be found, so he left without doing what he promised he would do. Whether you realize it or not, that's what you are saying.

    Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

    Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

    Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

    Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

    Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

    2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

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    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

      Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
      but after the NC is operative he will no longer be the mediator but King, At the Second coming, Jesus leaves the right hand of God in heaven and returns to Earth where he rules from the Throne of David.
      I've never known anyone who thinks these things.

      Comment


      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

        Originally posted by Noeb View Post
        I've never known anyone who thinks these things.
        I believe that JLU's point is that if Jesus' role as high priest is intrinsically the same as being mediator, that role(s) will end when Jesus leaves the temple of heaven:

        *[[Heb 9:24]] KJV* For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

        The PuP

        Originally posted by Noeb View Post
        I've never known anyone who thinks these things.
        I believe that JLU's point is that if Jesus' role as high priest is intrinsically the same as being mediator, that role(s) will end when Jesus leaves the temple of heaven:

        *[[Heb 9:24]] KJV* For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

        The PuP

        Comment


        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

          That's just silly. The high priest is high priest no matter where he is.

          Comment


          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

            Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
            That didn't really answer the question was this all completed as of the First Advent in your view or not?
            I have already answered the question. Everything has been fulfilled except Jesus to sit on the Throne and that will happen when he returns.

            Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
            Until Jesus is on that throne as King and no longer mediator only then Will i believe the NC is operative. I'm just gonna close all the reply to all the side discussion we have left open. But we can Conclude on us believing different Gathering and therefore timings are being referred to in Jeremiah 30-31. You with the gathering after babylon(and the first advent) and me the Future gathering by the Messiah at the Second coming. Is that acceptable?
            1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

            I don't see any time limit to Jesus Christ' role as 'mediator'. Perhaps, you should provide scriptural evidence that when he sits on the Throne, he ceases to be our mediators?

            Comment


            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
              But you can't have a tree without "root", can you?
              No, but Christ is not the tree he is the root of the tree. The tree is Israel, and the original branches are the children of Jacob and their descendants...until Christ died and then people who did not accept Him were cast off the tree making them no longer Israel in the sight of God, and those who were not original to the tree were grafted onto it making them new people of Israel. Note that no one is replaced, only removed and grafted in and grafted back if a former branch accepts Christ.
              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

              Comment


              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                No, but Christ is not the tree he is the root of the tree. The tree is Israel, and the original branches are the children of Jacob and their descendants...until Christ died and then people who did not accept Him were cast off the tree making them no longer Israel in the sight of God, and those who were not original to the tree were grafted onto it making them new people of Israel. Note that no one is replaced, only removed and grafted in and grafted back if a former branch accepts Christ.
                Thanks for Explaining.

                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                No, but Christ is not the tree he is the root of the tree. The tree is Israel, and the original branches are the children of Jacob and their descendants...until Christ died and then people who did not accept Him were cast off the tree making them no longer Israel in the sight of God, and those who were not original to the tree were grafted onto it making them new people of Israel. Note that no one is replaced, only removed and grafted in and grafted back if a former branch accepts Christ.
                Thanks for Explaining.

                Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                I believe that JLU's point is that if Jesus' role as high priest is intrinsically the same as being mediator, that role(s) will end when Jesus leaves the temple of heaven:

                *[[Heb 9:24]] KJV* For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

                The PuP
                Thanks for the Help but i Do not believe Jesus role as High Priest will Ever End Just his role as Mediator.

                Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                I believe that JLU's point is that if Jesus' role as high priest is intrinsically the same as being mediator, that role(s) will end when Jesus leaves the temple of heaven:

                *[[Heb 9:24]] KJV* For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

                The PuP
                Thanks for the Help but i Do not believe Jesus role as High Priest will Ever End Just his role as Mediator.

                Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                That's just silly. The high priest is high priest no matter where he is.
                This is correct He is the High Priest No matter where He is.

                Comment


                • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                  Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                  I've never known anyone who thinks these things.
                  I'm not sure why this is surprising to you Jesus IS God.

                  Lets Go Over the Covenants.

                  Abraham ---------- God. No mediator.

                  Israel ------ Mediator(Moses)------God. Note God did not want to use a mediator read Exodus 20:18-20 Notice what is stated by Moses Moses said to the people, “Do not fear, for God has come to test you, that the fear of him may be before you, that you may not sin.” What did the people DO?

                  Exodus 20:21 The people stood far off, while Moses drew near to the thick darkness where God was.

                  OK now the NC.

                  Judah+Israel-------------Mediator(Jesus) -------------God

                  Then as Galations 3:19-20 spells out Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the seed to whom the promise referred. It was administered through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator is unnecessary, however, if there is only one party ; but God is one.


                  So Jesus IS GOD.

                  Judah+Israel ---------- God(Jesus), That's what i'm saying I'm saying Jesus IS God therefore at some point he will no Longer be the mediator between God and Man because He IS God.

                  A simple way to understand, Jesus is now the mediator on Whose behalf in Heaven(See Hebrews 9:24) 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that were only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. God OR Man

                  It should be clear here that Jesus appears before God to represent US.

                  Here is a Hint Who did moses represent in the Role of Mediator in the OC? Israel.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                    I have already answered the question. Everything has been fulfilled except Jesus to sit on the Throne and that will happen when he returns.

                    I just want you to direct you to Noebs Cyrus/Messiah argument in Post#1006 this is essentially the path you must take if you believe all or most of Jeremiah 30-31 was fulfilled by the first Advent.

                    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                    [B]1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus I don't see any time limit to Jesus Christ' role as 'mediator'. Perhaps, you should provide scriptural evidence that when he sits on the Throne, he ceases to be our mediators?

                    It should be obvious Jesus is God, right Now he is in Heaven as the Representative of Man in his role as Mediator. But because Jesus IS GOD, there isn't a real need for a Mediator between God and Man when he is present on Earth(Since he is GOD). For example, you could see Hebrews 1:8-9.


                    The purpose of a mediator: a person who attempts to make people involved in a conflict come to an agreement; a go-between.


                    What is the *Agreement* here? THE NC, so once the Agreement is in Place the Role of the Mediator is over.


                    Essentially what you're saying is there will never be reconciliation between God and Man so Jesus will always need to be the Mediator (or go-between for these parties who are in Conflict) that's not what the writer of Hebrews preached or that Paul said.


                    Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.



                    Ephesians 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.


                    Also see 2 Corinthians 5:18-19, Romans 5:1, Romans 5:10, Colossians 1:20.


                    Jesus makes peace so that we can dwell with God, Jesus is also God. So Dwelling with Jesus (him on earth) means we are with God.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                      Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                      It had every relation to what we where saying. You claim No Jew is an exile today while you know for a fact for most of the last 2 Millenium they have been.
                      It will help if you actually pay attention to what I say! . I definitely acknowledged Jewish exile, but my position is that it ended in 1948. Diaspora Jews all over the world today are no longer on forced exile.

                      Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                      I don't want to pursue this sidepath which is why I stated my asnwer like that. Jesus cannot be the Olive Tree because in that Analogy Jesus is the Vine. Those two are *mutually exclusive* thats why as the parable goes on Jesus is then called the *root*.
                      Your denial that Jesus is not the Olive tree (Rom 11:17) makes zero sense since "root and tree" are mutually inseparable. Perhaps you've seen a tree standing on thin air? I haven't seen any for sure. Every tree has a root holding it firmly in the ground. It bothers me that in your avowed quest to disagree with everything I say, you constantly fail to actually stop and think things I say through before rejecting it.

                      In John 15:5 Jesus described himself as the "vine", in Rom 11 Paul referred to him as the Olive tree. Now, whether Jesus is the 'vine or olive tree' doesn't matter. The purpose of the analogies is not about nature or which type of tee he is. But rather to show that as a tree is firmly rooted in the ground so is Jesus our anchor. Therefore, believers, whether Jew or Gentile are the branches.

                      Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                      Then what is it's purpose? Before the Isrealites entered the Land they weren't under any Covenant. Wasn't the whole purpose of the Old Covenant to Live in the land? Don't you believe as you previously stated that, Israelites who don't accept or are not a part of the NC will be excluded from living in the Land as an eternal possession?
                      Yes, but the land they will inherit is the Millennium, not Israel as it is. Unless you believe that the Patriarchs and all the OT saints will rise and live in Jerusalem before Jesus returns? Because the OT faithful are also partakers of the land promise.

                      [QUOTE]
                      Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                      I don't mean it as an insult but yes if you believe the NC involves living in the land and someone comes along and says you're a Part of the NC while not living in the land it will indeed sound like a delusion.
                      It's all about understanding the land being referenced: the land of Israel as it is now or the Millennial Kingdom. My money is on MK. But it doesn't of course, mean that's when the NC will start.

                      Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                      Will the Holy Ghost ever leave the earth in your view? The Blood of Jesus does forgive sin but this is not done by the NC.
                      What is the relevance of whether the Holy Ghost leaves the earth or not? You're just grabbing irrelevant questions from the air and throwing at me. I'm I to take it that it's your position that Heb 10:12-18 is a lie? Because if you accept it is God's truth, then how in God's name is it not about the NC, given their context?

                      [QUOTE=Jesuslovesus;3495440] Who is the We here? Are you saying if the Jews are not still under the Law? Because gentiles never were.[QUOTE]

                      Gentiles are never under the law. Even the Jews are now no longer under the law as well, although in their ignorance they continue their futile attempts to follow the law. But Paul explained in Gal 3:24 that the Law was the "schoolmaster" that pointed to Christ, so when Jesus came, the law became obsolete.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                        Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                        Galatians 3:20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.

                        1 Cor 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

                        What Kingdom in your view is He giving to the Father?
                        Your proclivity to dance around with no music in play is mindboggling. I just explained that Jesus Christ' role a mediator is timeless. And as if conjuring something out of thin are, you bring in 1 Cor 15:24-28 and ask me which kingdom Jesus is giving to the Father?

                        Comment


                        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                          Originally posted by percho View Post
                          Was the old covenant the promise of the Holy Spirit through the mediator of the New Covenant?

                          The Old Covenant,"In thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed," to which was added 430 years later, because of transgressions, the law. The promised seed came, learned through sufferings, the obedience unto death even the death of the cross, shedding his life/blood, poured out his soul unto death. Three days and three nights later the Father raised him from the dead and he received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, which he began to shed forth as mediator according to the plan of God unto the destroying of the works of the devil?

                          That is one heck of an question.
                          It's indeed "one heck of a question" because you didn't phrase it properly to be understood. Perhaps you should read Heb 10:12-18 and let me know what you understand from it?

                          Comment


                          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                            Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                            That's just silly. The high priest is high priest no matter where he is.
                            I concur. And as I pointed out vide: 1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;. There is NO time limit to Jesus Christ' role as our mediator.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              It will help if you actually pay attention to what I say! . I definitely acknowledged Jewish exile, but my position is that it ended in 1948. Diaspora Jews all over the world today are no longer on forced exile.
                              My point is that This Exile did not end at the time of the First advent.



                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              Your denial that Jesus is not the Olive tree (Rom 11:17) makes zero sense since "root and tree" are mutually inseparable. Perhaps you've seen a tree standing on thin air? I haven't seen any for sure. Every tree has a root holding it firmly in the ground. It bothers me that in your avowed quest to disagree with everything I say, you constantly fail to actually stop and think things I say through before rejecting it.
                              Honestly not trying to start fights, but you don't seem to understand biology so it makes it seem like i'm attacking you. Here is a simple defintion that might help. Root- the part of a plant which attaches it to the ground or to a support, typically underground, conveying water and nourishment to the rest of the plant via numerous branches and fibers.

                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              In John 15:5 Jesus described himself as the "vine", in Rom 11 Paul referred to him as the Olive tree. Now, whether Jesus is the 'vine or olive tree' doesn't matter. The purpose of the analogies is not about nature or which type of tee he is. But rather to show that as a tree is firmly rooted in the ground so is Jesus our anchor. Therefore, believers, whether Jew or Gentile are the branches.
                              Lord believe whatever you want, I really wish you didn't make your own personal errors into such a big deal. A Tree and a Root are not the same concepts this is simple biology its like claiming a Fruit and Branch are the same thing how can this even become an argument.



                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              Yes, but the land they will inherit is the Millennium, not Israel as it is. Unless you believe that the Patriarchs and all the OT saints will rise and live in Jerusalem before Jesus returns? Because the OT faithful are also partakers of the land promise.
                              Not sure what you're talking about here as I said and you seem to agree the NC involves a Land inhertiance for the Faithful, you correctly identify it comes during the Millennium. But the idea that the patriarchs and OT saints would live there B4 Jesus returns fits more into YOUR position that the NC is NOW. Not mine that the NC+MK come at the same time namely at the second coming of Jesus.


                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              It's all about understanding the land being referenced: the land of Israel as it is now or the Millennial Kingdom. My money is on MK. But it doesn't of course, mean that's when the NC will start.
                              That to me IS exactly what it means I also believe it is the MK is the Land being referenced which is why my stated Position is the MK+NC.



                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              What is the relevance of whether the Holy Ghost leaves the earth or not? You're just grabbing irrelevant questions from the air and throwing at me.
                              Its relevent but the question is do you already believe that it will happen or if I have to form an argument to establish it before i connect the dots.

                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              I'm I to take it that it's your position that Heb 10:12-18 is a lie? Because if you accept it is God's truth, then how in God's name is it not about the NC, given their context?
                              Sorry do you mind rewriting this question.

                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              Gentiles are never under the law. Even the Jews are now no longer under the law as well, although in their ignorance they continue their futile attempts to follow the law. But Paul explained in Gal 3:24 that the Law was the "schoolmaster" that pointed to Christ, so when Jesus came, the law became obsolete.
                              Then clearly they are still under the Law, If they as a people believe they have to still follow the law and they do so how can you claim they aren't under it?

                              Comment


                              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                                No, but Christ is not the tree he is the root of the tree. The tree is Israel, and the original branches are the children of Jacob and their descendants...until Christ died and then people who did not accept Him were cast off the tree making them no longer Israel in the sight of God, and those who were not original to the tree were grafted onto it making them new people of Israel. Note that no one is replaced, only removed and grafted in and grafted back if a former branch accepts Christ.
                                You have me really confused now. You said that Jesus is not the *tree* but the *root*. Question is, how can you separate a tree from its root? Can the tree survive without its root? Have you seen a house without a foundation? As the foundation which is out of sight (underground) holds a building firmly, it is the same way the root holds a tree. Just think it through.

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