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  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Originally posted by percho View Post
    For finding fault, He saith to them, 'Lo, days come (present), saith the Lord, and I will complete (vi Fut Act 1 Sg) with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah, a new covenant,

    That first, in bold is not found in in Jeremiah 31. And after the past and present of HP, ministry, mediator, and better promises, the NC is still future. From Heb 8:1-8

    That in bold is in the present, of the newly sanctioned better promises by the resurrection of Christ, made High Priest after the order of Melchisedek, by, He who spake unto him: 'My Son thou art, I to-day have begotten thee;' by which the man Jesus becomes, mediator of the still future New Covenant.
    Hebrews 8 doesn't say the NC is still future.

    KJV Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

    ESV Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

    NET Heb 8:6 But now Jesus has obtained a superior ministry, since the covenant that he mediates is also better and is enacted on better promises.

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    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

      The thing with the Bible is that depending on where you are coming from, you can either accept the true meaning of a text or use it to build whatever agenda you wish to propagate. Hence those who are still struggling to come to terms with the fact that the new covenant has already started are only too happy to either ignore the passages that prove it or simply claim they mean something else far removed from their real meaning.

      Comment


      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

        that I will make, after those days

        What has transpired before the above spoken of, "after"?

        Go read Jeremiah 31:1-30

        "After", those things Jer 31:1-30 have come to pass the LORD will make.

        that I will make, after those days

        What has transpired before the above spoken of, "after"?

        Go read Jeremiah 31:1-30

        "After", those things Jer 31:1-30 have come to pass the LORD will make.

        Comment


        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          The thing with the Bible is that depending on where you are coming from, you can either accept the true meaning of a text or use it to build whatever agenda you wish to propagate. Hence those who are still struggling to come to terms with the fact that the new covenant has already started are only too happy to either ignore the passages that prove it or simply claim they mean something else far removed from their real meaning.
          I agree, a good example of this is people like you trying to add people into the NC that aren't in from the House of Judah or Israel even though the passages doesn't even imply this should be possible. Yet somehow you a gentile Claim you are a member of the NC which according to the passage is exclusive to Israel and Judah. Your agenda is clear.

          You wish to claim the NC promised to the house of Jacob for yourself and the Gentiles, This agenda(trying to apply promises of Israel to the international church) isn't new and isn't gonna stop anytime soon.

          The fact is the passage clearly outlines who this Covenant is made with(Judah & Israel), and Looking at the House of Jacob especially the Jews(house of Judah) today as a whole it is clear they aren't in the NC and if they are in fact in it they clearly don't know it.

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          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

            Originally posted by percho View Post
            that I will make, after those days

            What has transpired before the above spoken of, "after"?

            Go read Jeremiah 31:1-30

            "After", those things Jer 31:1-30 have come to pass the LORD will make.
            What is it you do not think happened?

            Comment


            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

              Originally posted by Noeb View Post
              What is it you do not think happened?
              Jer 30:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel: Write in a book all the words that I have spoken to you. 3 For behold, days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will restore the fortunes of my people, Israel and Judah, says the Lord, and I will bring them back to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall take possession of it.”


              I think he still believes these days in bold have not happened, while you believe they were fulfilled by the Jews returning from Babylon.

              Comment


              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                Jer 30:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel: Write in a book all the words that I have spoken to you. 3 For behold, days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will restore the fortunes of my people, Israel and Judah, says the Lord, and I will bring them back to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall take possession of it.”


                I think he still believes these days in bold have not happened, while you believe they were fulfilled by the Jews returning from Babylon.
                What are you doing way back there?

                Comment


                • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                  Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                  I agree, a good example of this is people like you trying to add people into the NC that aren't in from the House of Judah or Israel even though the passages doesn't even imply this should be possible. Yet somehow you a gentile Claim you are a member of the NC which according to the passage is exclusive to Israel and Judah. Your agenda is clear.

                  You wish to claim the NC promised to the house of Jacob for yourself and the Gentiles, This agenda(trying to apply promises of Israel to the international church) isn't new and isn't gonna stop anytime soon.

                  The fact is the passage clearly outlines who this Covenant is made with(Judah & Israel), and Looking at the House of Jacob especially the Jews(house of Judah) today as a whole it is clear they aren't in the NC and if they are in fact in it they clearly don't know it.
                  Missed your quirky wits. It's really unfortunate to observe that there are professed Christians who remain oblivious to the fact that they are under the new covenant.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                    Originally posted by percho View Post
                    that I will make, after those days

                    What has transpired before the above spoken of, "after"?

                    Go read Jeremiah 31:1-30

                    "After", those things Jer 31:1-30 have come to pass the LORD will make.

                    that I will make, after those days

                    What has transpired before the above spoken of, "after"?

                    Go read Jeremiah 31:1-30

                    "After", those things Jer 31:1-30 have come to pass the LORD will make.
                    1. Hebrews 9:15 and 12:24 "He is the mediator of the new covenant".
                    2. Hebrews 10:12 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

                    13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

                    14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

                    15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

                    16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

                    17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

                    18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

                    There is overwhelming evidence that the new covenant is already in place and it's not too difficult to understand. But one needs discernment.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                      Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                      Jer 30:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel: Write in a book all the words that I have spoken to you. 3 For behold, days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will restore the fortunes of my people, Israel and Judah, says the Lord, and I will bring them back to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall take possession of it.”

                      I think he still believes these days in bold have not happened, while you believe they were fulfilled by the Jews returning from Babylon.
                      And you're of course, right that it was fulfilled after the exiles returned from Babylon.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                        Missed your quirky wits. It's really unfortunate to observe that there are professed Christians who remain oblivious to the fact that they are under the new covenant.
                        It is sad that you believe that the whole nation of Israel has been in a covenant relationship where they are born with circumcised hearts yet they are oblivious to this "fact" and the "fact" they are in a New Covenant.

                        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                        Missed your quirky wits. It's really unfortunate to observe that there are professed Christians who remain oblivious to the fact that they are under the new covenant.
                        It is sad that you believe that the whole nation of Israel has been in a covenant relationship where they are born with circumcised hearts yet they are oblivious to this "fact" and the "fact" they are in a New Covenant.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                          And you're of course, right that it was fulfilled after the exiles returned from Babylon.
                          So I'm correct in that your belief is that Jeremiah 30 and the days mentioned there start with the return of the exiles in 538 BC and span over 500 years till the birth and death of Christ?

                          Comment


                          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                            Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                            So I'm correct in that your belief is that Jeremiah 30 and the days mentioned there start with the return of the exiles in 538 BC and span over 500 years till the birth and death of Christ?
                            You were right about my thoughts.

                            If what they think is correct then Ezek 37:20-28 has also been fulfilled. I do not believe that is true.

                            I also believe John 10:16 is a reference to Ezek 37:20-28 with the future references in John 10:16. They shall be hearing and There shall be coming to be one Flock (Kingdom) One Shepherd


                            A T Robertson on John 10:16

                            And they shall become one flock, one shepherd (πωνης — kai genēsontai mia poimnē και γενησονται μια ποιμνη εις ποιμην — heis poimēn). Future middle indicative of γινομαι — ginomai plural, not singular γενησεται — genēsetai as some MSS. have it. All (Jews and Gentiles) will form one flock under one Shepherd. Note the distinction here by Jesus between ποιμνη — poimnē (old word, contraction of ποιμενη — poimenē from ποιμην — poimēn shepherd), as in Matthew 26:31, and αυλη — aulē (fold) just before. There may be many folds of the one flock. Jerome in his Vulgate confused this distinction, but he is wrong. His use of ovile for both αυλη — aulē and πομνιον — pomnion has helped Roman Catholic assumptions. Christ‘s use of “flock” (ποιμνη — poimnē) here is just another metaphor for kingdom (βασιλεια — basileia) in Matthew 8:11 where the children of the kingdom come from all climes and nations. See also the various metaphors in Ephesians 2 for this same idea. There is only the one Great Shepherd of the sheep (Hebrews 13:20), Jesus Christ our Lord.


                            Jesus is speaking of Ezekiel 37:20-28 here It is others who think he is speaking of something else.

                            Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                            So I'm correct in that your belief is that Jeremiah 30 and the days mentioned there start with the return of the exiles in 538 BC and span over 500 years till the birth and death of Christ?
                            You were right about my thoughts.

                            If what they think is correct then Ezek 37:20-28 has also been fulfilled. I do not believe that is true.

                            I also believe John 10:16 is a reference to Ezek 37:20-28 with the future references in John 10:16. They shall be hearing and There shall be coming to be one Flock (Kingdom) One Shepherd


                            A T Robertson on John 10:16

                            And they shall become one flock, one shepherd (πωνης — kai genēsontai mia poimnē και γενησονται μια ποιμνη εις ποιμην — heis poimēn). Future middle indicative of γινομαι — ginomai plural, not singular γενησεται — genēsetai as some MSS. have it. All (Jews and Gentiles) will form one flock under one Shepherd. Note the distinction here by Jesus between ποιμνη — poimnē (old word, contraction of ποιμενη — poimenē from ποιμην — poimēn shepherd), as in Matthew 26:31, and αυλη — aulē (fold) just before. There may be many folds of the one flock. Jerome in his Vulgate confused this distinction, but he is wrong. His use of ovile for both αυλη — aulē and πομνιον — pomnion has helped Roman Catholic assumptions. Christ‘s use of “flock” (ποιμνη — poimnē) here is just another metaphor for kingdom (βασιλεια — basileia) in Matthew 8:11 where the children of the kingdom come from all climes and nations. See also the various metaphors in Ephesians 2 for this same idea. There is only the one Great Shepherd of the sheep (Hebrews 13:20), Jesus Christ our Lord.


                            Jesus is speaking of Ezekiel 37:20-28 here It is others who think he is speaking of something else.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                              Originally posted by percho View Post
                              You were right about my thoughts.

                              If what they think is correct then Ezek 37:20-28 has also been fulfilled. I do not believe that is true.
                              Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
                              Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
                              Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
                              Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

                              So, has all of Isaiah 61 been fulfilled? Certainly not, but Jesus said at least a portion has. Picking through the prophets and demanding all be fulfilled or that only portions cannot be fulfilled is wrong. Above, Jesus did not say, "and the day of vengeance of our God" found in the quoted scripture. Read on in Luke 4 and Jesus is rejected as Messiah and they were going to kill him, but he passed through the midst of them and went his way. Much of Isaiah 61 would not be fulfilled. The koh would not come. Only the koG would in part. Restoring Israel and taking vengeance on his enemies would not occur at this time. The Father has put that in his own power -Acts 1:7.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                                Originally posted by percho View Post
                                You were right about my thoughts.


                                If what they think is correct then Ezek 37:20-28 has also been fulfilled. I do not believe that is true.


                                I also believe John 10:16 is a reference to Ezek 37:20-28 with the future references in John 10:16. They shall be hearing and There shall be coming to be one Flock (Kingdom) One Shepherd




                                A T Robertson on John 10:16


                                And they shall become one flock, one shepherd (πωνης — kai genēsontai mia poimnē και γενησονται μια ποιμνη εις ποιμην — heis poimēn). Future middle indicative of γινομαι — ginomai plural, not singular γενησεται — genēsetai as some MSS. have it. All (Jews and Gentiles) will form one flock under one Shepherd. Note the distinction here by Jesus between ποιμνη — poimnē (old word, contraction of ποιμενη — poimenē from ποιμην — poimēn shepherd), as in Matthew 26:31, and αυλη — aulē (fold) just before. There may be many folds of the one flock. Jerome in his Vulgate confused this distinction, but he is wrong. His use of ovile for both αυλη — aulē and πομνιον — pomnion has helped Roman Catholic assumptions. Christ‘s use of “flock” (ποιμνη — poimnē) here is just another metaphor for kingdom (βασιλεια — basileia) in Matthew 8:11 where the children of the kingdom come from all climes and nations. See also the various metaphors in Ephesians 2 for this same idea. There is only the one Great Shepherd of the sheep (Hebrews 13:20), Jesus Christ our Lord.




                                Jesus is speaking of Ezekiel 37:20-28 here It is others who think he is speaking of something else.
                                I made the same point to Trivalle, He somehow agrees that the Covenant mentioned in Ezekiel 37:20-28 and Jeremiah 31:31-33 are the same. Yet somehow he still maintains that these are speaking about 2 different gathering of exiles separated by over 2000 years. Noeb just said flatly that there will be no future gathering, which blew my mind, like does he believe Jesus words in Mark 13:27 maybe he will elaborate. To me, Ezekiel and Jeremiah are clearly speaking of a future ingathering of the exiles and a New Covenant for them *At that time*.

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