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  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    It is sad that you believe that the whole nation of Israel has been in a covenant relationship where they are born with circumcised hearts yet they are oblivious to this "fact" and the "fact" they are in a New Covenant.
    The new covenant is that of faith, where:

    1. The believer has the law of God written on his heart by the indwelling Spirit of God.
    2. Those of Israel who believe in Christ and in his redemptive blood are in the new covenant.
    3. The circumcision of the heart refers to being made a new creature by being in Christ.

    Paul said concerning Israel's rejection of Christ and the new covenant:

    2 Cor 3:12 Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13 not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. 14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. 16 But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.

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    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

      Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
      So I'm correct in that your belief is that Jeremiah 30 and the days mentioned there start with the return of the exiles in 538 BC and span over 500 years till the birth and death of Christ?
      No, my point is the text we discussed earlier refers to the returning of the Babylonian exiles.

      Comment


      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
        The new covenant is that of faith, where:

        1. The believer has the law of God written on his heart by the indwelling Spirit of God.
        2. Those of Israel who believe in Christ and in his redemptive blood are in the new covenant.
        3. The circumcision of the heart refers to being made a new creature by being in Christ.

        Paul said concerning Israel's rejection of Christ and the new covenant:

        2 Cor 3:12 Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13 not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. 14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. 16 But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.
        Sure it does so according to you Deutormony 30 is active now for the people who dwell in Israel right?

        Deuteronomy 30:4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

        5 And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

        6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

        So whever a member of the house of Israel gets saved all his seed also is born with this circumcised heart. I wonder why they don't all know this already?? How could they be born with these circumcised hearts and not know it?

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        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          No, my point is the text we discussed earlier refers to the returning of the Babylonian exiles.
          Yea you also claimed that all (or most) of Jeremiah 30-31 was fullfilled from in the first Advent. So what is inaccurate about my statement? You believe that Jeremiah 30:1-4 and the "days" mentioned there refer to 538 BC and that the prophesy spans all the way till the birth and death of Messiah(over 500 years) when it is all "fullfilled", except Jesus sitting on the throne of David.

          Comment


          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

            Originally posted by percho View Post
            You were right about my thoughts. If what they think is correct then Ezek 37:20-28 has also been fulfilled. I do not believe that is true.

            I also believe John 10:16 is a reference to Ezek 37:20-28 with the future references in John 10:16. They shall be hearing and There shall be coming to be one Flock (Kingdom) One Shepherd

            A T Robertson on John 10:16

            And they shall become one flock, one shepherd (πωνης — kai genēsontai mia poimnē και γενησονται μια ποιμνη εις ποιμην — heis poimēn). Future middle indicative of γινομαι — ginomai plural, not singular γενησεται — genēsetai as some MSS. have it. All (Jews and Gentiles) will form one flock under one Shepherd. Note the distinction here by Jesus between ποιμνη — poimnē (old word, contraction of ποιμενη — poimenē from ποιμην — poimēn shepherd), as in Matthew 26:31, and αυλη — aulē (fold) just before. There may be many folds of the one flock. Jerome in his Vulgate confused this distinction, but he is wrong. His use of ovile for both αυλη — aulē and πομνιον — pomnion has helped Roman Catholic assumptions. Christ‘s use of “flock” (ποιμνη — poimnē) here is just another metaphor for kingdom (βασιλεια — basileia) in Matthew 8:11 where the children of the kingdom come from all climes and nations. See also the various metaphors in Ephesians 2 for this same idea. There is only the one Great Shepherd of the sheep (Hebrews 13:20), Jesus Christ our Lord.

            Jesus is speaking of Ezekiel 37:20-28 here It is others who think he is speaking of something else.
            Your error in Ezek 37 is that you read it as a chronological narrative, forgetting it is prophecy steeped in allegory. And telling of prophecy is never straightforward!

            The prophet described Israel's fate between 70AD to 1948 as "dry bones" which had no life and right so. At least, not until God fulfilled his promise and breathed life into them and, get this - subsequently restored them to their ancestral land!

            [I]Ezek 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
            Ezek 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
            Ezek 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.[/I

            Unfortunately, by claiming that verses 20-28 are yet to be fulfilled, you unwittingly failed to realise that 20-28 is a recapitulation of verses 11-12 which speak of (a) reviving Israel and (b) restoring them to their land. For the life of me, I cannot conceive why some people still claim that God will gather Israel to their homeland when that has already been fulfilled. Apparently, these proponents confuse diaspora with exile.

            Until 1948 there was no legal basis for Jews to return to Palestine. In contrast, there's no longer an impediment for a Jew to return home after the modern state of Israel was established. It is, therefore, a fallacy to hold out for a future gathering when that is already fulfilled.

            John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

            Jesus was speaking to his Jewish disciples in the text above and tells that he will bring another sheep that is not of this fold, i.e. not of Jewish stock. He said they will hear his voice and become one fold with them [Israel] and have one shepherd - Jesus Christ. I don't know how anyone cannot see that that Jesus was referring to Gentile believers here?

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            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

              Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
              Yea you also claimed that all (or most) of Jeremiah 30-31 was fullfilled from in the first Advent. So what is inaccurate about my statement? You believe that Jeremiah 30:1-4 and the "days" mentioned there refer to 538 BC and that the prophesy spans all the way till the birth and death of Messiah(over 500 years) when it is all "fullfilled", except Jesus sitting on the throne of David.
              Jeremiah 30 deals with the restoration of the returning exiles back to their homeland. While Ezekiel 37, however, focuses on the restoration of Israel to their homeland after their "dry bone" experience from 70AD to 1948. There is no more gathering left. What you have now is Israeli diaspora, not exiles.

              Understanding the difference between the two will help you understand how wrong your theory is.

              Comment


              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                Jeremiah 30 deals with the restoration of the returning exiles back to their homeland.
                Ok, so my description of your beliefs on this matter is correct...? You believe that Jeremiah 30:1-4 and the "days" mentioned there refer to 538 BC and that the prophesy spans all the way till the birth and death of Messiah(over 500 years) when it is all "fulfilled", except Jesus sitting on the throne of David.


                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                While Ezekiel 37, however, focuses on the restoration of Israel to their homeland after their "dry bone" experience from 70AD to 1948. There is no more gathering left. What you have now is Israeli diaspora, not exiles.


                Understanding the difference between the two will help you understand how wrong your theory is.

                So, what you're saying is that when Jesus comes back he will be gathering those in Diaspora not in exile?


                When you say there are "no more gatherings left" Are you denying the "gatherings" mentioned in Matthew 24:31 & Mark 13:27?


                Also once more I'm not putting forth any theories, claiming that my nonexistent theory is wrong is just another example of deflection.

                Comment


                • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  Your error in Ezek 37 is that you read it as a chronological narrative, forgetting it is prophecy steeped in allegory. And telling of prophecy is never straightforward!

                  The prophet described Israel's fate between 70AD to 1948 as "dry bones" which had no life and right so. At least, not until God fulfilled his promise and breathed life into them and, get this - subsequently restored them to their ancestral land!

                  [I]Ezek 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
                  Ezek 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
                  Ezek 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.[/I

                  Unfortunately, by claiming that verses 20-28 are yet to be fulfilled, you unwittingly failed to realise that 20-28 is a recapitulation of verses 11-12 which speak of (a) reviving Israel and (b) restoring them to their land. For the life of me, I cannot conceive why some people still claim that God will gather Israel to their homeland when that has already been fulfilled. Apparently, these proponents confuse diaspora with exile.

                  Until 1948 there was no legal basis for Jews to return to Palestine. In contrast, there's no longer an impediment for a Jew to return home after the modern state of Israel was established. It is, therefore, a fallacy to hold out for a future gathering when that is already fulfilled.
                  Ok, just to be accurate you believe that Ezekiel 37:20-28 have been fullfilled and that this is a current reality in Israel As of TODAY.

                  I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding,[b] and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

                  24 “‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’”

                  According to you this is all a current reality and Benjamin Netanyahu is God's servant David?

                  Comment


                  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                    Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                    Ok, so my description of your beliefs on this matter is correct...? You believe that Jeremiah 30:1-4 and the "days" mentioned there refer to 538 BC and that the prophesy spans all the way till the birth and death of Messiah(over 500 years) when it is all "fulfilled", except Jesus sitting on the throne of David.
                    The bit about Jesus sitting on the throne of David is yet fulfilled. But with regards to the gathering of Israel - that's a cinch.

                    Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                    So, what you're saying is that when Jesus comes back he will be gathering those in Diaspora not in exile?
                    When you say there are "no more gatherings left" Are you denying the "gatherings" mentioned in Matthew 24:31 & Mark 13:27?
                    Also once more I'm not putting forth any theories, claiming that my nonexistent theory is wrong is just another example of deflection.
                    1. Yes, the Jews outside their homeland today are the diaspora rather than exiles. An exile is one that is either forcefully expelled or had conditions that forced him to leave his homeland to find succour elsewhere. Such people are unable to return until the conditions that forced them out is removed.
                    2. There is no impediment for any Jew outside Israel to return home today. Their forebears were exiled, but their exile ended in 1948.

                    Matt 24:31 and Mark 13:27 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

                    I certainly do not believe that this text refers to Israel because in the NT dispensation the "elect" is believers in Christ (the church). Secondly, there's no corroboration that the gathering of Israel will be heralded by a trumpet.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                      Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                      Sure it does so according to you Deutormony 30 is active now for the people who dwell in Israel right?

                      Deuteronomy 30:4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

                      5 And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

                      6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

                      So whever a member of the house of Israel gets saved all his seed also is born with this circumcised heart. I wonder why they don't all know this already?? How could they be born with these circumcised hearts and not know it?
                      Deuteronomy 30:4-6 is already fulfilled.

                      By your remarks, it seems you believe that God will circumcise the heart of every Israel whether they believe or not. From your standpoint, it would seem the Jew has no role whatsoever to play himself. IOW, whether he chooses to believe or remain a reprobate doesn't matter - God will circumcise his heart, regardless. Am I correct that this is your position?

                      Comment


                      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                        The bit about Jesus sitting on the throne of David is yet fulfilled. But with regards to the gathering of Israel - that's a cinch.



                        1. Yes, the Jews outside their homeland today are the diaspora rather than exiles. An exile is one that is either forcefully expelled or had conditions that forced him to leave his homeland to find succour elsewhere. Such people are unable to return until the conditions that forced them out is removed.
                        2. There is no impediment for any Jew outside Israel to return home today. Their forebears were exiled, but their exile ended in 1948.

                        Matt 24:31 and Mark 13:27 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

                        I certainly do not believe that this text refers to Israel because in the NT dispensation the "elect" is believers in Christ (the church). Secondly, there's no corroboration that the gathering of Israel will be heralded by a trumpet.
                        Also you believe Zech 14 is also fullfilled and that these Isrealites will not once more go into Exile correct? Zech 14:2 also in the past right?

                        Comment


                        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                          Deuteronomy 30:4-6 is already fulfilled.

                          By your remarks, it seems you believe that God will circumcise the heart of every Israel whether they believe or not. From your standpoint, it would seem the Jew has no role whatsoever to play himself. IOW, whether he chooses to believe or remain a reprobate doesn't matter - God will circumcise his heart, regardless. Am I correct that this is your position?
                          Can you give me the Date that you believe Deuteronomy 30:4-6 was fullfilled? When did Israel do this outlined here in your view?

                          And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

                          3 That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                            Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                            Ok, just to be accurate you believe that Ezekiel 37:20-28 have been fullfilled and that this is a current reality in Israel As of TODAY.

                            I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding,[b] and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

                            24 “‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’”

                            According to you this is all a current reality and Benjamin Netanyahu is God's servant David?
                            If only you can approach these passages with the mindset of a Christian, you will then see your error. Moses spoke of God sending them a "Prophet" in whom they will believe (Deut 18:15). In fulfilment, Jesus came. Now, whether they believe in him or not, neither voids the promise nor makes the prophecy unfulfilled. What you can't seem to shake off is this unfounded belief that every Israel will miraculously be saved, whereas the scriptures never said that.

                            1. Israel today is ONE NATION. It makes no sense to still hold out for a future unification of Israel and Judah into one nation given that the present state of Israel will remain until Christ returns.
                            2. Jesus is not physically reigning over Israel as King but will be when he returns. It's about the different phases of the fulfilment of the prophecy.
                            3. They are presently living in the land of their ancestors.
                            4. They and their children will live there forever, ie the faithful will live on the land forever - through the millennium and beyond.
                            5. The covenant of peace (new covenant) is already in place for the believing.
                            6. God says he will put his sanctuary among them forever - his throne. This will be fulfilled when Jesus returns.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                              Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                              Can you give me the Date that you believe Deuteronomy 30:4-6 was fullfilled? When did Israel do this outlined here in your view?

                              And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

                              3 That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.
                              The way you quote scripture is confusing, e.g. "And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;" is not in Deut 30:4-6. It's difficult for me to respond correctly if you send me on a rabbit trail...

                              Nevertheless, I would say that "And shalt return unto the Lord...and shalt obey his voice" is fulfilled in the Gospel when Jesus came specifically for them. The majority rejected his ministry, but the few believed.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                                Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                                Also you believe Zech 14 is also fullfilled and that these Isrealites will not once more go into Exile correct? Zech 14:2 also in the past right?
                                Zech 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

                                These passages clearly fall into the 42 months period of the Antichrist as v-3 proves. The captivity you cited in v-2 apparently is in the future. I wonder how this helps your case since you're arguing for a future gathering of Israel? And if they are not already gathered in their homeland, who then are those in Jerusalem the nations gather to war against? How can they go into captivity if they are still in exile waiting to be gathered home?

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