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  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
    Zech 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

    These passages clearly fall into the 42 months period of the Antichrist as v-3 proves. The captivity you cited in v-2 apparently is in the future. I wonder how this helps your case since you're arguing for a future gathering of Israel? And if they are not already gathered in their homeland, who then are those in Jerusalem the nations gather to war against? How can they go into captivity if they are still in exile waiting to be gathered home?
    It helps me case if Jews are in exile when Jesus returns. Seems like you agree there will be a future captivity and that it falls into the 42 month period of the Antichrist B4 the second coming of Jesus.

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    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
      If only you can approach these passages with the mindset of a Christian, you will then see your error. Moses spoke of God sending them a "Prophet" in whom they will believe (Deut 18:15). In fulfilment, Jesus came. Now, whether they believe in him or not, neither voids the promise nor makes the prophecy unfulfilled. What you can't seem to shake off is this unfounded belief that every Israel will miraculously be saved, whereas the scriptures never said that.

      1. Israel today is ONE NATION. It makes no sense to still hold out for a future unification of Israel and Judah into one nation given that the present state of Israel will remain until Christ returns.
      2. Jesus is not physically reigning over Israel as King but will be when he returns. It's about the different phases of the fulfilment of the prophecy.
      3. They are presently living in the land of their ancestors.
      4. They and their children will live there forever, ie the faithful will live on the land forever - through the millennium and beyond.
      5. The covenant of peace (new covenant) is already in place for the believing.
      6. God says he will put his sanctuary among them forever - his throne. This will be fulfilled when Jesus returns.
      Sounds like you just made the case that this prophesy will not be fullfilled until Jesus returns. What more do i have to add when your own points prove my case. Even if point 5 is clearly wrong.

      Comment


      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
        The way you quote scripture is confusing, e.g. "And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;" is not in Deut 30:4-6. It's difficult for me to respond correctly if you send me on a rabbit trail...


        Nevertheless, I would say that "And shalt return unto the Lord...and shalt obey his voice" is fulfilled in the Gospel when Jesus came specifically for them. The majority rejected his ministry, but the few believed.
        It's the words directly before it, I'm just quoting Deut 30:1-6 you claim 4-6 has been fulfilled which means you believe what leads up to it namely Israel obeying the voice of God and returning to him to be in the past. So I'm just asking for a historical date that you believe Deut 30:1-3 was fullfilled since you believe 4-6 is a current reality.[/QUOTE]

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        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          The bit about Jesus sitting on the throne of David is yet fulfilled. But with regards to the gathering of Israel - that's a cinch.
          Is it? You are still claiming that Jeremiah 30:1-4 and Ezekiel 37:20-28 refer to two different gatherings of Israel separated by over 2000 years and the one closest to the first advent is still over 500 years. "Cinch" huh?. Somehow you still claim these two covenants are the same though. Also, you admit that there will be another future Exile.

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          1. Yes, the Jews outside their homeland today are the diaspora rather than exiles. An exile is one that is either forcefully expelled or had conditions that forced him to leave his homeland to find succour elsewhere. Such people are unable to return until the conditions that forced them out is removed.
          Like When Zech 14:2 comes to pass and once more the Jews are forced into Exile?


          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          2. There is no impediment for any Jew outside Israel to return home today. Their forebears were exiled, but their exile ended in 1948.
          So the NC started in 1948 fulfilling Ezekiel 37:20-28? Do you believe that the Jews returned to Israel in Unbelief or in Belief?


          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          Matt 24:31 and Mark 13:27 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


          I certainly do not believe that this text refers to Israel because in the NT dispensation the "elect" is believers in Christ (the church). Secondly, there's no corroboration that the gathering of Israel will be heralded by a trumpet.
          Interesting so the elect here excludes the House of Israel in your doctrine. Very interesting indeed. Also maybe see Isaiah 27:12-13? You know what let me quote it here since once more you believe there is NO Corroboration of a gathering of Israel.

          Isaiah 27:12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.


          13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

          So in your doctrine what day was this?? 1948?

          Comment


          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

            Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
            It helps me case if Jews are in exile when Jesus returns. Seems like you agree there will be a future captivity and that it falls into the 42 month period of the Antichrist B4 the second coming of Jesus.
            Zech 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

            It's not referring to those presently in the diaspora. But the Jews already in Jerusalem that the beast will force out of their homeland after Jerusalem capitulates. Hopefully, you'll agree there's a difference?

            Comment


            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

              Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
              Sounds like you just made the case that this prophesy will not be fullfilled until Jesus returns. What more do i have to add when your own points prove my case. Even if point 5 is clearly wrong.
              On the contrary, my enumerated points show that the majority of God's promises concerning Israel has been fulfilled. Looks like you just ignored what I said in favour of an assumption that is not referenced in my remarks.

              Comment


              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                It's the words directly before it, I'm just quoting Deut 30:1-6 you claim 4-6 has been fulfilled which means you believe what leads up to it namely Israel obeying the voice of God and returning to him to be in the past. So I'm just asking for a historical date that you believe Deut 30:1-3 was fullfilled since you believe 4-6 is a current reality.
                Deut 30:1-3 was fulfilled prior to the return of the Babylonian exiles. I've said this several times, you keep making the mistake of thinking that every Tom, Dick and Harry in Israel MUST turn to God for the prophecy to be fulfilled. But this is not the case! In Deut 30:1 we see two options - one, a curse for disobeying God and the other blessing.

                Deut 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee,

                Note that the text says they will recall *this warning" [call them to mind] when they're in exile? Sort of a reflection on how they got to be exiled in the first place. Let's see v-2.

                Deut 30:2 And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

                The devout among the exiled captives fulfilled v-2 above. I won't copy and paste a whole chapter, but if you read Daniel 9 you will see that Daniel and some other righteous Jews acknowledged the sins of their people and asked God for forgiveness and mercy on behalf of Israel. The scriptures have records of other pious Jews who were penitent and prayed constantly for God's mercy and intervention in exile, e.g. Meshach, Shadrach, Abednego. These are the ones mentioned by name, certainly, there must be more also.

                We should not always press the 'rejection' button on every argument tendered by another, but consider it's merit. For a prophecy to be fulfilled, God doesn't require agreement or participation of all and sundry. I'll give you a couple of examples: recall God's exchange with Abraham in Gen 18 about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah? Abraham pleaded with God repeatedly to spare the city and God responded that if Abraham could find a few righteous people, he would forebear. Starting from a request for 50 righteous people, we see a decrease down to 5, yet that number could not be found.

                In my second example, God sent Jonah to Nineveh to warn them of impending judgment and they [Nineveh] subsequently repented and were spared.

                Now, the moral of my story (Sodom and Gomorrah and Nineveh) is that EVERYBODY need not participate for what God says will happen to be fulfilled. Example, if 5 righteous people were found in S&G and their city spared, one might be mistaken into believing the whole city was righteous. The same applies to Nineveh. We are told that they repented. However, we don't need a soothsayer to figure out that in a city of hundreds to thousands of people, not everyone will actually comply with the instructions. Yet the obedience of a few is sufficient to sway God's mercy on them.

                So your belief that every Jew must turn to God for the prophecy to be fulfilled is a fallacy and reason you're not seeing that Deut 30:1-6 is long fulfilled.

                Comment


                • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  Deut 30:1-3 was fulfilled prior to the return of the Babylonian exiles. I've said this several times, you keep making the mistake of thinking that every Tom, Dick and Harry in Israel MUST turn to God for the prophecy to be fulfilled. But this is not the case! In Deut 30:1 we see two options - one, a curse for disobeying God and the other blessing.

                  Deut 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee,

                  Note that the text says they will recall *this warning" [call them to mind] when they're in exile? Sort of a reflection on how they got to be exiled in the first place. Let's see v-2.

                  Deut 30:2 And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

                  The devout among the exiled captives fulfilled v-2 above. I won't copy and paste a whole chapter, but if you read Daniel 9 you will see that Daniel and some other righteous Jews acknowledged the sins of their people and asked God for forgiveness and mercy on behalf of Israel. The scriptures have records of other pious Jews who were penitent and prayed constantly for God's mercy and intervention in exile, e.g. Meshach, Shadrach, Abednego. These are the ones mentioned by name, certainly, there must be more also.

                  We should not always press the 'rejection' button on every argument tendered by another, but consider it's merit. For a prophecy to be fulfilled, God doesn't require agreement or participation of all and sundry. I'll give you a couple of examples: recall God's exchange with Abraham in Gen 18 about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah? Abraham pleaded with God repeatedly to spare the city and God responded that if Abraham could find a few righteous people, he would forebear. Starting from a request for 50 righteous people, we see a decrease down to 5, yet that number could not be found.

                  In my second example, God sent Jonah to Nineveh to warn them of impending judgment and they [Nineveh] subsequently repented and were spared.

                  Now, the moral of my story (Sodom and Gomorrah and Nineveh) is that EVERYBODY need not participate for what God says will happen to be fulfilled. Example, if 5 righteous people were found in S&G and their city spared, one might be mistaken into believing the whole city was righteous. The same applies to Nineveh. We are told that they repented. However, we don't need a soothsayer to figure out that in a city of hundreds to thousands of people, not everyone will actually comply with the instructions. Yet the obedience of a few is sufficient to sway God's mercy on them.

                  So your belief that every Jew must turn to God for the prophecy to be fulfilled is a fallacy and reason you're not seeing that Deut 30:1-6 is long fulfilled.
                  That isn't my belief at all nor does you example actually give me an historical date when you believe this prophesy was fullfilled. I really wish you would stop trying to name my beliefs and then "explain" them as fallacys or the like. Even when I explicitly tell you what I believe you still don't get it so you trying to infer my beliefs from my questions to you just leads to more errors on your part. Go back and read your post none of it address my question since your just making false assumptions on my belifs. You are essentially ignoring questions I ask to you personally and debating with some straw man that doesn't even accuratly express my beliefs. So your examples in these posts are wasted. Try to answer what I have bolded in my post.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                    On the contrary, my enumerated points show that the majority of God's promises concerning Israel has been fulfilled. Looks like you just ignored what I said in favour of an assumption that is not referenced in my remarks.

                    No, your points enumerated that you don't believe any of the passage was fulfilled during the first Advent except point 5 which you horseshoed back to Pentecost.


                    Point 1. 1948
                    Point 2. MK.
                    Point 3. 1948
                    Point 4. MK
                    Point 5. 33AD
                    Point 6. MK.


                    Like I said your own post puts a full Half of these events in the Future, 2 in 1948 and just one back during the time of the first advent. Clearly not a "majority" by any stretch.


                    Also, you Put part of Jeremiah 30-31, in 538 BC, part during the first advent, and part during the future MK.


                    Then you claim these two passages speak of the same Covenant. To me, it's clear this position is flawed.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                      Zech 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

                      It's not referring to those presently in the diaspora. But the Jews already in Jerusalem that the beast will force out of their homeland after Jerusalem capitulates. Hopefully, you'll agree there's a difference?
                      Hopefully you will admit that there will be people "IN EXILE" (Not Diaspora) at the Second Coming as Zech 14:2 proves! Just for the record I'm also not referring to those presently in Diaspora, I'm just saying according to the bible there will be another Exile and that these people will Indeed be regathered at the Second coming.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                        Zech 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

                        It's not referring to those presently in the diaspora. But the Jews already in Jerusalem that the beast will force out of their homeland after Jerusalem capitulates. Hopefully, you'll agree there's a difference?
                        Other noteworthy verses...
                        Mark 14:27 “And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered”

                        John 8:1 “Jesus went unto the mount of Olives”

                        Acts 4:26 “The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.”

                        Luke 3:4 “Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.”

                        John 7:37 “In the last day, that great day of the feast [of Tabernacles], Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.”

                        John 4:21 “ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit”

                        Jesus is YHWH the eternal Great I AM.
                        • Jesus said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I AM from above: ye are of this world; I AM not of this world. if ye believe not that I AM He, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:23
                        • " I YHWH the LORD, the first, and with the last; I AM He. Thus saith YHWH the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer YHWH the LORD of hosts; I AM the first, and I AM the last; and beside me there is no God.” Isaiah 41:4,44:6
                        • "And [the son of Man] laid his right hand upon me, saying Fear not; I AM the first and the last: I AM He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I AM alive for evermore. These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive" Rev 1:17, 2:8
                        • "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Rev 22:12

                        Comment


                        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                          Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                          That isn't my belief at all nor does you example actually give me an historical date when you believe this prophesy was fullfilled. I really wish you would stop trying to name my beliefs and then "explain" them as fallacys or the like. Even when I explicitly tell you what I believe you still don't get it so you trying to infer my beliefs from my questions to you just leads to more errors on your part. Go back and read your post none of it address my question since your just making false assumptions on my belifs. You are essentially ignoring questions I ask to you personally and debating with some straw man that doesn't even accuratly express my beliefs. So your examples in these posts are wasted. Try to answer what I have bolded in my post.
                          I gave you the context of when Deut 30:1-6 was fulfilled which is when the Babylonian exiles returned. It's regrettable that my detailed exegesis is lost on you. I can't be bothered with the specific (B.C.) date since we are not discussing history. If this isn't good enough, too bad.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                            Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                            No, your points enumerated that you don't believe any of the passage was fulfilled during the first Advent except point 5 which you horseshoed back to Pentecost.

                            Point 1. 1948
                            Point 2. MK.
                            Point 3. 1948
                            Point 4. MK
                            Point 5. 33AD
                            Point 6. MK.

                            Like I said your own post puts a full Half of these events in the Future, 2 in 1948 and just one back during the time of the first advent. Clearly not a "majority" by any stretch.
                            Also, you Put part of Jeremiah 30-31, in 538 BC, part during the first advent, and part during the future MK.
                            Then you claim these two passages speak of the same Covenant. To me, it's clear this position is flawed.
                            What you think don't really matter one way or another to me. I leave my remarks for others to evaluate. The way I see it, even if I tell you that Donald Trump is the current US President, you won't believe it because it's from me.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                              Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                              Like When Zech 14:2 comes to pass and once more the Jews are forced into Exile?
                              They will merely be driven out of Jerusalem. At that time, the majority will be in protective sojourn in the desert for 3.5years.

                              So the NC started in 1948 fulfilling Ezekiel 37:20-28? Do you believe that the Jews returned to Israel in Unbelief or in Belief?
                              1. The New Covenant started at Pentecost, not 1948. And those who partake are believers as recorded that the Apostles (Jews) were the first to receive the Holy Ghost, thereby fulfilling the prophecy of it being with Israel+Judah and then Gentiles.
                              2. The final gathering of the exiles was in 1948. Just like when the Babylonian exiles returned, there's no requirement for them to believe before returning home.

                              Interesting so the elect here excludes the House of Israel in your doctrine. Very interesting indeed. Also maybe see Isaiah 27:12-13? You know what let me quote it here since once more you believe there is NO Corroboration of a gathering of Israel.

                              Isaiah 27:12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.

                              13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

                              So in your doctrine what day was this?? 1948?
                              Isaiah 27:12-13 speaks of the gathering of the first exile from Assyria and Babylon. Only Ezekiel prophecied of the gathering that was fulfilled in 1948.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                                Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
                                Other noteworthy verses...
                                Mark 14:27 “And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered”

                                John 8:1 “Jesus went unto the mount of Olives”

                                Acts 4:26 “The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.”

                                Luke 3:4 “Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.”

                                John 7:37 “In the last day, that great day of the feast [of Tabernacles], Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.”

                                John 4:21 “ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit”
                                I'm not sure how these passages relate, will you elaborate?

                                Comment

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