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  • #91
    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Originally posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Wonderful post Walls, but I already asked for it in post #39 and all I got was innuendo and misinterpretation of Scripture.

    Trivalee and co. got egg all over their face. Aristarkos
    You can Hi-Five and slap each other on the back to your heart's content, but it doesn't change the fact your position is spurious.

    Comment


    • #92
      Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

      Originally posted by Walls View Post
      You, and others, are famous for ignoring the grammar and adding to scripture. It does NOT READ, "this is the New Covenant for the remission of sins". It reads in Matthew 26:28 and Mark 14:24 severally;
      28 For this is my blood (i) of the new testament, which (ii) is shed for many for the remission of sins.
      24 And he said unto them, This is my blood (i) of the new testament, which (ii) is shed for many.


      TWO things are reveled. (i) The blood is that of the new Testament, and (ii) The blood is shed for many for the remission of sins. This clearly indicates that the blood has at least TWO FUNCTIONS. In Exodus 24:1-8 Moses and the seventy Elders go up "to the Lord". They, with one voice, agree to the terms of the Covenant of Law (v.3). Then Israelites slaughter Burnt and Peace Offerings (v.5). Then Moses takes the blood and sprinkles it on the newly built altar and twelve pillars. Then Moses reads the whole Covenant, the terms of which is the Law. And then says in verse 8; "And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words." So, I ask you. WHICH SIN AND SINS DID THIS BLOOD COVER? The answer is "NONE"! They were "BURNT Offerings" and "PEACE Offerings", not SIN and TRESPASS Offerings. They did not deal with a single sin. The blood that Moses sprinkled was RATIFICATION OF THE COVENANT ONLY!

      Now, when we come to Christ's death, He is so all-encompassing, and His death is all-encompassing, and His blood does MULTIPLE things. He is the fulfillment of ALL the Offerings. His blood is to answer Abel's blood that holds the earth under curse (Gen.4:10-12; Heb.12:24). His blood "washes" (Rev.1:5). His blood clears the conscience (Heb.9:14). His blood remits sin (singular - Jn.1:29). His blood remits trespasses (plural - 1st Jn.2:2). These are all SEPARATE THINGS. And one of the SEPARATE things is that it RATIFIES the New Covenant WITH ISRAEL.

      So, both Luke 22:20 1 Corinthians 11:25 say severally;
      20 "Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you."
      25 "After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me."

      Note the grammar. The CUP is the New Testament IN HIS BLOOD. That is ONE THING. The the verse goes and says (by implication) "This SAME Blood, which settles the New Covenant, IS ALSO SHED FOR YOU! - A SECOND THING. And what does verse 25 say? Does it say "drink of this cup to REMEMBER the New Covenant? NO! It says "as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of ME"

      At no time does the Lord Jesus, in any of the above verses, say that
      1. the Disciples are subject to the New Covenant
      2. the Disciples are subject to "God's Law"
      3. the New Covenant is in force! Why would He say that when He has, by His Holy Spirit, already declared that "AFTER those days He will make a New Covenant with Israel. And the "days" He means are the "days" of the Church age for Acts 15:14-16 reveals the SEQUENCE:
      14 "Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
      15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
      16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:"

      The New Covenant is with Israel ONLY. It is a Covenant of LAW. It is RATIFIED on Golgotha. It is INSTITUTED "AFTER" the Church age is complete when Israel are ONE NATION again as they were under David. The New Covenant has NOTHING to do with salvation and Eternal Life. It is so that Israel are found worthy to REMAIN in their Land and not be thrown out again.
      Until you realise that the primary essence of the New Covenant is to forgive and atone for sin - the very thing that animal blood failed to do, you'll continue to miss the point. The most illogical of your argument is your acceptance that by Christ' death, the NC was ratified, yet inexplicably "suspended" until the millennium. This errant view is based on the misguided belief that the NC is associated with the Promise of Land to Abraham and his descendants. Whereas none of the prophecies on the New Covenant remotely support this claim.

      I can't make sense of some of your arguments here. The blood of Jesus serves a multitude of purposes. In the Old Covenant, different types of sacrifices were required to atone and reconcile a myriad of transgressions. Hence, we are told that in place of the multiple and daily sacrifices, Jesus did it ONCE and with his flesh, thus covering the various requirements for blood.

      1. If the New Covenant is not for the Church, then Jesus died in vain because it is for those who believe!
      2. The Law of God written in the hearts and minds of God's faithful today is the law of Christ (Gal 6:2).
      3. The New Covenant is now in force. Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

      Notice what v-15 says? The Holy Spirit is the witness that is now in force. Since Pentecost, the Spirit of God has continued to indwell the hearts and minds of the faithful.

      In conclusion: since there is no salvation and eternal life without forgiveness of sin and the Bible has unequivocally said that the New Covenant is for the remission of sin - I am gobsmacked that some in their own wisdom, deny this scriptural TRUTH.

      Comment


      • #93
        Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
        Until you realise that the primary essence of the New Covenant is to forgive and atone for sin - the very thing that animal blood failed to do, you'll continue to miss the point. The most illogical of your argument is your acceptance that by Christ' death, the NC was ratified, yet inexplicably "suspended" until the millennium. This errant view is based on the misguided belief that the NC is associated with the Promise of Land to Abraham and his descendants. Whereas none of the prophecies on the New Covenant remotely support this claim.

        I can't make sense of some of your arguments here. The blood of Jesus serves a multitude of purposes. In the Old Covenant, different types of sacrifices were required to atone and reconcile a myriad of transgressions. Hence, we are told that in place of the multiple and daily sacrifices, Jesus did it ONCE and with his flesh, thus covering the various requirements for blood.

        1. If the New Covenant is not for the Church, then Jesus died in vain because it is for those who believe!
        2. The Law of God written in the hearts and minds of God's faithful today is the law of Christ (Gal 6:2).
        3. The New Covenant is now in force. Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

        Notice what v-15 says? The Holy Spirit is the witness that is now in force. Since Pentecost, the Spirit of God has continued to indwell the hearts and minds of the faithful.

        In conclusion: since there is no salvation and eternal life without forgiveness of sin and the Bible has unequivocally said that the New Covenant is for the remission of sin - I am gobsmacked that some in their own wisdom, deny this scriptural TRUTH.
        God says; The New Covenant is made with the combined Houses of Israel and Judah
        Trivalee says; "The New Covenant is made with the Church
        Who shall we believe?

        God says; The Church is not revealed to the prophets of Old
        Trivalee says; Jeremiah, when naming Israel in Chapter 31 verse 31 made a mistake and meant the Church
        Who shall we believe?

        God says; The New Covenant will replace the First Covenant. The First Covenant was so that Israel "would prolong her days in the Land"
        Trivalee says; The New Covenant will lead to Eternal Life
        Who shall we believe?

        God says; FAITH will lead to Eternal Life (Jn.3:15)
        Trivalee says; A Covenant will lead to Eternal Life (but with no verse)
        Who shall we believe?

        God says; ...

        You know what? I believe God.

        Comment


        • #94
          Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          Where is the insult?
          Do you believe that Paul who wrote Hebrews went out of his way to address those who have not accepted Jesus?
          I don't know any Christian who believes that Hebrews was written to unbelieving Jews.
          I see no evidence that Hebrews was written by Paul. In every letter written by Paul, he actually states that it's him writing it except in hebrews.



          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          The Land promised to Abraham is NOT associated with the New Covenant.

          Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

          32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

          33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

          34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

          Please show me where "Land" is mentioned in relation to the New Covenant?
          Honestly if you have to ask this then your field of view is very narrow in regards to this subject, do a honest study of -Jermiah 31- the whole chapter and come back here again and state that there is no mention of the land or the holy city. If you can't find it in the chapter state so and we can go over it together.



          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          Since his death, Jesus has become our mediator and will continue to do so while we remain in sinful flesh until we receive immortality.
          Exactly he is still the MEDIATOR until he returns then the NC will be established.
          .
          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          1 Tim 1:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
          Good quote.

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          I take it you have nothing substantial to refute my post? You have not provided a single scripture or even an articulated thought worth considering to challenge my position. But what I can't deny is that it's your prerogative to fudge the topic since you asked me what a Mediator is.
          I see no reason to refute your post if this is what you choose to believe do so, I just want to ask questions to offer you a serious and honest challenge to what you believe. Once more lets assume your premise is correct for our discussions.



          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          Funny you ask me to "prove with scripture" when you have not provided any. I'm not sure whether you're serious or making fun of this discussion? But whatever is the case, please see above.
          You stated that you believed you had proved without a doubt that the NC is in affect. Therefore you believe Jesus no longer is mediating it correct?

          Do a thought experment the first covenent was Mediated by Moses right? While he was Mediating on behalf of Israel was it in effect Yes or No?

          Do you believe that Jesus who is *NOW* our mediator is still acting as such or is he done because as you believe the New Covenant is in Effect?

          According to your post above you seem to believe he is still the Mediator

          So you must believe Jesus is the mediator of the covenant while it is in effect?

          Is that an accurate discription of your beliefs?

          Jesus is the mediator of the New covenant while the NC is active. <----This what you believe?

          Comment


          • #95
            Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

            Just to give Trivallee some background on the first Covenant that was mediated by Moses so i can get an honest answer to my questions I will quote some passages.


            Exodus 24:3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do. 4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel. 5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD. 6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. 7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. 8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.


            9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: 10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.


            Notice what is stated in Hebrews.


            Hebrews 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,


            19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:


            20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:


            21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake


            22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,


            23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


            24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


            25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:


            26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.


            My question for you is -
            Does your doctrine teach that this Mediation and sprinkling of Blood that is mentioned in verse 24 is a past event?


            Yes or No.

            Comment


            • #96
              Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

              Originally posted by Walls View Post
              I addressed this scripture in a previous posting. The word rendered "ministers" is "diakonos" in the Greek. It means one who "runs errands", "an attendant" (of menial duties)", that is "an ADMINISTRATOR".

              The Apostles were given a special duty. They were selected to sit on thrones judging the 12 Tribes of Israel in the Millennium (Matt.19:28, Lk.22:30). They, being Christians, are not under Law. But the People they govern will be. So although they are not subject to Law they will have to make sure, as kings over Israelites, that the Law of the New Covenant is kept. So they become "attendants", or "servants of menial tasks" or "administrators".
              Who's buying this? You can't just see NC, pull it out of context and say it means something not entirely different.

              Comment


              • #97
                Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                Originally posted by Walls View Post
                You, and others, are famous for ignoring the grammar and adding to scripture. It does NOT READ, "this is the New Covenant for the remission of sins". It reads in Matthew 26:28 and Mark 14:24 severally;
                28 For this is my blood (i) of the new testament, which (ii) is shed for many for the remission of sins.
                24 And he said unto them, This is my blood (i) of the new testament, which (ii) is shed for many.
                Ignoring grammar? LOL. It says exactly what I said it does and it can say nothing else.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                  Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                  Who's buying this? You can't just see NC, pull it out of context and say it means something not entirely different.
                  Maybe. But you, claiming to know the truth, refrain from sharing it with your brothers and sisters at large. Your critical one liners deny everything and what everybody said without a commitment to the truth that you have. Let us seek the mind of God on such behavior. Leviticus 5:1 says; "And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity." I am the first to say that we are not under the Law of Moses. But from it we glean how God thinks on matters. You have the truth - now write it down. I have time if you need three pages to prove the Apostles are under the new Covenant. Your task should be easy easy. In 2nd Corinthians 3, in the passage under discussion, the word "ministers", "minister" and "ministry" appears about seven times. All of them come from the root of "diakonos". Pray, give us your exegesis on the section, say verses 3 to 9, and show that the Apostles are under the New Covenant.

                  Or, seeing that general context is the defense of Paul's Apostleship, is the "Administrator" of the New Covenant in verse 6 used as an example like;
                  1. the proof of their "ministry" of the epistle of in verse 3 is the saints themselves?
                  2. the Law is an "administrator" of death in verse 7
                  3. the "administration" of the Holy Spirit in verse 8
                  4. the "administrator" of condemnation in verse 9
                  5. the "administrator" of righteousness in verse 9

                  I wait, with anticipation, your exegesis that will show this passage putting the Apostles under the New Covenant.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                    Originally posted by Walls View Post
                    Maybe. But you, claiming to know the truth, refrain from sharing it with your brothers and sisters at large. Your critical one liners deny everything and what everybody said without a commitment to the truth that you have.
                    Whine, cry, lie about me and insult all you want.

                    -thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ
                    -Do we begin again to commend ourselves?
                    -such trust have we through Christ to God-ward
                    -Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God
                    -Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament;

                    Again, what is he talking about?

                    "maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ."

                    My post stands.
                    "made us able ministers of the new testament"? Who's he talking to and what is he talking about? Is there a distinction made towards Israel only, or is he talking to Jew and Gentile? "Christ's gospel" "in them that are saved" " savour of his knowledge" "savour of life" "speak we in Christ" all synonymous with "the new testament

                    You desperately need to learn how to apply scripture in context, leaving your preconceived notions out.


                    Originally posted by Walls View Post
                    In 2nd Corinthians 3, in the passage under discussion, the word "ministers", "minister" and "ministry" appears about seven times. All of them come from the root of "diakonos". Pray, give us your exegesis on the section, say verses 3 to 9, and show that the Apostles are under the New Covenant.

                    Or, seeing that general context is the defense of Paul's Apostleship, is the "Administrator" of the New Covenant in verse 6 used as an example like;
                    1. the proof of their "ministry" of the epistle of in verse 3 is the saints themselves?
                    2. the Law is an "administrator" of death in verse 7
                    3. the "administration" of the Holy Spirit in verse 8
                    4. the "administrator" of condemnation in verse 9
                    5. the "administrator" of righteousness in verse 9

                    I wait, with anticipation, your exegesis that will show this passage putting the Apostles under the New Covenant.
                    Paul very plainly answers you....

                    12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 1Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

                    Originally posted by Walls View Post
                    Maybe. But you, claiming to know the truth, refrain from sharing it with your brothers and sisters at large. Your critical one liners deny everything and what everybody said without a commitment to the truth that you have.
                    Whine, cry, lie about me and insult all you want.

                    -thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ
                    -Do we begin again to commend ourselves?
                    -such trust have we through Christ to God-ward
                    -Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God
                    -Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament;

                    Again, what is he talking about?

                    "maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ."

                    My post stands.
                    "made us able ministers of the new testament"? Who's he talking to and what is he talking about? Is there a distinction made towards Israel only, or is he talking to Jew and Gentile? "Christ's gospel" "in them that are saved" " savour of his knowledge" "savour of life" "speak we in Christ" all synonymous with "the new testament

                    You desperately need to learn how to apply scripture in context, leaving your preconceived notions out.


                    Originally posted by Walls View Post
                    In 2nd Corinthians 3, in the passage under discussion, the word "ministers", "minister" and "ministry" appears about seven times. All of them come from the root of "diakonos". Pray, give us your exegesis on the section, say verses 3 to 9, and show that the Apostles are under the New Covenant.

                    Or, seeing that general context is the defense of Paul's Apostleship, is the "Administrator" of the New Covenant in verse 6 used as an example like;
                    1. the proof of their "ministry" of the epistle of in verse 3 is the saints themselves?
                    2. the Law is an "administrator" of death in verse 7
                    3. the "administration" of the Holy Spirit in verse 8
                    4. the "administrator" of condemnation in verse 9
                    5. the "administrator" of righteousness in verse 9

                    I wait, with anticipation, your exegesis that will show this passage putting the Apostles under the New Covenant.
                    Paul very plainly answers you....

                    12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 1Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                      Originally posted by Walls View Post
                      God says; The New Covenant is made with the combined Houses of Israel and Judah
                      Trivalee says; "The New Covenant is made with the Church
                      Who shall we believe?
                      The partakers of the New Covenant are all believers in Christ who naturally comprise of those of the House of David (Israel and Judah). The disciples were the first to receive it on the Day of Pentecost.

                      God says; The Church is not revealed to the prophets of Old
                      Trivalee says; Jeremiah, when naming Israel in Chapter 31 verse 31 made a mistake and meant the Church
                      Who shall we believe?
                      Paul said in Eph 2:12 that the Gentiles who were aliens and strangers in the Old Covenant have now being assimilated into the Commonwealth of Israel by the death of Christ. He went further to say in Gal 3:27-28 that for those who are baptised in Christ, there's neither Jew nor Gentile, bond nor free, male nor female. If these passages don't prove that the church is part of the New Covenant, nothing else will.

                      You need to pray for discernment not only to read your Bible but to actually understand it.

                      God says; The New Covenant will replace the First Covenant. The First Covenant was so that Israel "would prolong her days in the Land"
                      Trivalee says; The New Covenant will lead to Eternal Life
                      Who shall we believe?
                      According to Paul, the purpose of the Old Mosaic Covenant was as follows:

                      Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed [Jesus]should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

                      20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

                      21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

                      22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

                      23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

                      24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

                      25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


                      Walls says: That the First Covenant was so that Israel "would prolong her days in the Land" I have cited the reasons the First Covenant was given according to Paul. Did the scriptures say anything about it prolonging the days of Israel in the Land? You be the judge!!!

                      God says; FAITH will lead to Eternal Life (Jn.3:15)
                      Trivalee says; A Covenant will lead to Eternal Life (but with no verse)
                      Who shall we believe?
                      Indeed, faith leads to eternal life. The question is in whom should this faith be invested in? Isn't it in Christ? So with faith in Christ, we partake of the New Covenant which leads to eternal life. Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called [those who believe] might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                        Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                        Whine, cry, lie about me and insult all you want.

                        -thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ
                        -Do we begin again to commend ourselves?
                        -such trust have we through Christ to God-ward
                        -Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God
                        -Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament;

                        Again, what is he talking about?

                        "maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ."

                        My post stands.
                        "made us able ministers of the new testament"? Who's he talking to and what is he talking about? Is there a distinction made towards Israel only, or is he talking to Jew and Gentile? "Christ's gospel" "in them that are saved" " savour of his knowledge" "savour of life" "speak we in Christ" all synonymous with "the new testament

                        You desperately need to learn how to apply scripture in context, leaving your preconceived notions out.


                        Paul very plainly answers you....

                        12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 1Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.


                        Whine, cry, lie about me and insult all you want.

                        -thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ
                        -Do we begin again to commend ourselves?
                        -such trust have we through Christ to God-ward
                        -Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God
                        -Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament;

                        Again, what is he talking about?

                        "maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ."

                        My post stands.
                        "made us able ministers of the new testament"? Who's he talking to and what is he talking about? Is there a distinction made towards Israel only, or is he talking to Jew and Gentile? "Christ's gospel" "in them that are saved" " savour of his knowledge" "savour of life" "speak we in Christ" all synonymous with "the new testament

                        You desperately need to learn how to apply scripture in context, leaving your preconceived notions out.


                        Paul very plainly answers you....

                        12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 1Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
                        The end of the matter is that you can't provide any proof from 2nd Corinthians 3 that the Church is under the New Covenant. You claim to have the truth, yet above is just copy and pasting of the texts under discussion. You are great at one critical liners. But you can't string three sentences together to show the point under discussion. And if we do ask you for this grand truth you claim to have, you answer that we "whine, cry and lie" about you. But every reader knows that my request for exegesis on 2nd Corinthians 3:6 was formal, reasonable and to the point for it is the only verse in the whole New Testament that brings together Apostles and the New Covenant. But ... I have yet to see you string a coherent argument together. Your criticism is big, your exegesis is non-existent. 1st Corinthians 3 speaks of us being "builders of the Church". You are are a "breaker down".

                        Comment


                        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                          Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                          I see no evidence that Hebrews was written by Paul. In every letter written by Paul, he actually states that it's him writing it except in hebrews.
                          Okay, let's not digress from the topic. The passages below convinced me that Paul is the Author:

                          Heb 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

                          And in his Benediction, he says

                          Heb 13:22 And I beseech you, brethren, suffer the word of exhortation: for I have written a letter unto you in few words. 23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty; with whom, if he come shortly, I will see you.

                          In my view, it is too much of a coincidence, that another Apostle at the time wrote from prison and in the same powerful prose usually associated with Paul. It will also be a further stretch and a coincidence that this unknown Apostle was also closely acquainted with Timothy, Paul's protege (chap 13:22). However, you are entitled to draw your own conclusions.

                          Honestly if you have to ask this then your field of view is very narrow in regards to this subject, do a honest study of -Jermiah 31- the whole chapter and come back here again and state that there is no mention of the land or the holy city. If you can't find it in the chapter state so and we can go over it together.
                          No chapter in the Bible is a continuous story of one event. This is the reason we seek meaning from context. Jeremiah's (31:31-34) prophecy of the New Covenant made no mention of land or the holy city. Also, when the writer of Hebrews (10:16-17) quoted Jeremiah, he did not mention land or the holy city because it's not there. You are simply seeing what is not stated because of your faulty understanding of what you believe the NC is for.

                          Exactly he is still the MEDIATOR until he returns then the NC will be established.
                          .

                          Hallelujah!

                          In your previous post, you claimed that Jesus is no longer mediating for us now. So I praise God that you've recanted. But if he establishes the NC when he returns, will he die again to bring it to come to pass? Both the Old and New Covenants are anchored in blood (Heb 9:16-17). Moses used the blood of animals to ratify the old, so if Jesus will establish the new when he returns, it follows that he has to die again for it to be activated since you deny that his death on the cross ushered in the NC?

                          You stated that you believed you had proved without a doubt that the NC is in affect. Therefore you believe Jesus no longer is mediating it correct?

                          Do a thought experment the first covenent was Mediated by Moses right? While he was Mediating on behalf of Israel was it in effect Yes or No?

                          Do you believe that Jesus who is *NOW* our mediator is still acting as such or is he done because as you believe the New Covenant is in Effect?

                          According to your post above you seem to believe he is still the Mediator

                          So you must believe Jesus is the mediator of the covenant while it is in effect?

                          Is that an accurate discription of your beliefs?

                          Jesus is the mediator of the New covenant while the NC is active. <----This what you believe?
                          According to the Bible, the Levitical Priests *mediated* the Old Covenant. They sacrificed the animals and went into the holy of holies once a year for this purpose.

                          Heb 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

                          24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

                          25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.


                          While the Levites mediated the old covenant, Jesus is now our eternal High Priest (Heb 9:11-14) and mediator of the New Covenant.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                            Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                            Just to give Trivallee some background on the first Covenant that was mediated by Moses so i can get an honest answer to my questions I will quote some passages.


                            Exodus 24:3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do. 4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel. 5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD. 6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. 7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. 8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

                            9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: 10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

                            Notice what is stated in Hebrews.

                            Hebrews 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

                            19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

                            20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

                            21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake

                            22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

                            23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

                            24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

                            25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

                            26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

                            My question for you is -
                            Does your doctrine teach that this Mediation and sprinkling of Blood that is mentioned in verse 24 is a past event?

                            Yes or No.
                            I'm not sure what your argument is here, so forgive me if I misunderstood you. In response to your 'Yes' or 'No' question, while the sprinkling of blood in the old covenant was repetitive, Jesus shed his blood once that by faith, believers are cleansed by his blood.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                              Originally posted by Walls View Post
                              Maybe. But you, claiming to know the truth, refrain from sharing it with your brothers and sisters at large. Your critical one liners deny everything and what everybody said without a commitment to the truth that you have. Let us seek the mind of God on such behavior. Leviticus 5:1 says; "And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity." I am the first to say that we are not under the Law of Moses. But from it we glean how God thinks on matters. You have the truth - now write it down. I have time if you need three pages to prove the Apostles are under the new Covenant. Your task should be easy easy. In 2nd Corinthians 3, in the passage under discussion, the word "ministers", "minister" and "ministry" appears about seven times. All of them come from the root of "diakonos". Pray, give us your exegesis on the section, say verses 3 to 9, and show that the Apostles are under the New Covenant.

                              Or, seeing that general context is the defense of Paul's Apostleship, is the "Administrator" of the New Covenant in verse 6 used as an example like;
                              1. the proof of their "ministry" of the epistle of in verse 3 is the saints themselves?
                              2. the Law is an "administrator" of death in verse 7
                              3. the "administration" of the Holy Spirit in verse 8
                              4. the "administrator" of condemnation in verse 9
                              5. the "administrator" of righteousness in verse 9

                              I wait, with anticipation, your exegesis that will show this passage putting the Apostles under the New Covenant.
                              To understand whether the Apostles were under the New Covenant and by extension, the church, kindly tell me who the Book of Hebrews was addressed to - Jewish Christians (the church) or unbelieving Judaics?

                              Comment


                              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                                Okay, let's not digress from the topic. The passages below convinced me that Paul is the Author:

                                Heb 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

                                And in his Benediction, he says

                                Heb 13:22 And I beseech you, brethren, suffer the word of exhortation: for I have written a letter unto you in few words. 23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty; with whom, if he come shortly, I will see you.

                                In my view, it is too much of a coincidence, that another Apostle at the time wrote from prison and in the same powerful prose usually associated with Paul. It will also be a further stretch and a coincidence that this unknown Apostle was also closely acquainted with Timothy, Paul's protege (chap 13:22). However, you are entitled to draw your own conclusions.
                                As are you.



                                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                                No chapter in the Bible is a continuous story of one event. This is the reason we seek meaning from context. Jeremiah's (31:31-34) prophecy of the New Covenant made no mention of land or the holy city. Also, when the writer of Hebrews (10:16-17) quoted Jeremiah, he did not mention land or the holy city because it's not there. You are simply seeing what is not stated because of your faulty understanding of what you believe the NC is for.
                                Clearly you want to ignore the chapter because the City and the Land are both mentioned as is your perogative so go ahead. As long as we both *KNOW* that in the chapter both the Land and the Holy City are clearly in view.


                                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                                Hallelujah!

                                In your previous post, you claimed that Jesus is no longer mediating for us now.
                                I never claimed this you did, you claim Jesus is no longer Mediating the New Covenant because it is now established.

                                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                                So I praise God that you've recanted.
                                Please try to read carefully if you misread what people are saying to you there is no point using text as a medium to express thoughts.

                                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                                But if he establishes the NC when he returns, will he die again to bring it to come to pass? Both the Old and New Covenants are anchored in blood (Heb 9:16-17). Moses used the blood of animals to ratify the old, so if Jesus will establish the new when he returns, it follows that he has to die again for it to be activated since you deny that his death on the cross ushered in the NC?
                                I don't know how you can read hebrews and not understand when things are clearly spelt out, maybe its the same issue you run into when you analyze people posts. Try to read whats going on here, do you see Jesus dieing again in this passage????
                                Once more try to *NOTE* Where the BLOOD is SPRINKLED.

                                In the case of a will,[d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.”[e] 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

                                23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

                                Please NOTE what Jesus is doing NOW

                                24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

                                This should answer you question about Whether or Not Jesus has to die again as Emphatialically as possible the Answer is NO. He will come back to bring salvation to those waiting for him Got to go will be back to finish later.

                                Comment

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