Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

[Jesuslovesus]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

I gave you the context of when Deut 30:1-6 was fulfilled which is when the Babylonian exiles returned. It's regrettable that my detailed exegesis is lost on you. I can't be bothered with the specific (B.C.) date since we are not discussing history. If this isn't good enough, too bad.

You did exegensis? Because i didn't see it. If you believe Deut 30:1-6 was fullfilled with the Babylonian exiles that's all you had to say. It is a minority position but I don't think you care about such things.

[Jesuslovesus]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

What you think don't really matter one way or another to me. I leave my remarks for others to evaluate. The way I see it, even if I tell you that Donald Trump is the current US President, you won't believe it because it's from me.

I love when people try to project things onto others. The Fact is this is how you feel about *ME* and there are ample examples to support the *Fact* that if I tell you something you try to deny it simply because i said it. Take the little sidebar about Romans 11:16, I say Jesus in the passage is represented by the root, and because it came from my you tried to claim Jesus is the "Olive Tree" even though No where in the WHOLE NT is Jesus ever compared to or called an Olive tree. Not 1 time. Even when Ewq who is on your side came to try to correct you, you rejected it because it would mean that what I told you out of no anomosity was true.

Sorry but by the basic definition of the word *Majority* 3-6 is not a majority, it just isn't me saying that is a fact and has nothing to do with you personally.

Your own points put a full Half of the Ezekiel 37:20-28 in the future for fulfillment.

Why I see no reason to debate that post, your own points show that you don't believe that Ezekiel 37:20-28 has been fulfilled contrary to your own claims.

Just another contradiction by you.

[Jesuslovesus]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

They will merely be driven out of Jerusalem. At that time, the majority will be in protective sojourn in the desert for 3.5years.

The passage says they will be *Taken in Captivity*. Also the same is stated in Revelation 13:10. Funny how you made this whole point about the difference between disporia and exile and now you're trying to walk it back.

1. The New Covenant started at Pentecost, not 1948. And those who partake are believers as recorded that the Apostles (Jews) were the first to receive the Holy Ghost, thereby fulfilling the prophecy of it being with Israel+Judah and then Gentiles.
2. The final gathering of the exiles was in 1948. Just like when the Babylonian exiles returned, there's no requirement for them to believe before returning home.

Ok, So those driven out by the AC will never return, interesting belief, one that I never heard before but then again your views on these subjects are Far from mainstream or biblically supported.

Isaiah 27:12-13 speaks of the gathering of the first exile from Assyria and Babylon. Only Ezekiel prophecied of the gathering that was fulfilled in 1948.

Yea, when you believe it was fullfilled is irrelivant to me I just wanted to show everyone that your claims that "there's no corroboration that the gathering of Israel will be heralded by a trumpet." Is false.

Since it came from me I doubt you will acknowledge that your claim here is false but thats fine anyone who reads Isaiah 24-27 with open eyes (not blinded by personal hate for me) will be able to clearly see this was NOT fullfilled by the first gathering from babylon.

[Trivalee]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

You did exegensis? Because i didn't see it. If you believe Deut 30:1-6 was fullfilled with the Babylonian exiles that's all you had to say. It is a minority position but I don't think you care about such things.

The problem is you have nothing to say order than a repetition of your dream of a phantom future gathering. I'm yet to see post a least 100 -150-word article explaining why your claim is valid. Instead, all you have are either one-liners or a bunch of irrelevant questions (like the specific date a prophecy was fulfilled) belies the fact you have nothing more to add than a blatant rejection of everything I say.

[Trivalee]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

I love when people try to project things onto others. The Fact is this is how you feel about *ME* and there are ample examples to support the *Fact* that if I tell you something you try to deny it simply because i said it. Take the little sidebar about Romans 11:16, I say Jesus in the passage is represented by the root, and because it came from my you tried to claim Jesus is the "Olive Tree" even though No where in the WHOLE NT is Jesus ever compared to or called an Olive tree. Not 1 time. Even when Ewq who is on your side came to try to correct you, you rejected it because it would mean that what I told you out of no anomosity was true.

Sorry but by the basic definition of the word *Majority* 3-6 is not a majority, it just isn't me saying that is a fact and has nothing to do with you personally.

Your own points put a full Half of the Ezekiel 37:20-28 in the future for fulfillment.

Why I see no reason to debate that post, your own points show that you don't believe that Ezekiel 37:20-28 has been fulfilled contrary to your own claims.

Just another contradiction by you.

I'm here to learn and increase in knowledge, therefore, I acknowledge sound doctrine when I see one. I've lost count on the number of times I have agreed with you on points.

With regards Rom 11, I didn't disagree because it was *you* rather, I disagreed on a matter of doctrine. A TREE is made up of branches, leaves and root. But a root is not made up of branches. So when scripture says that Israel was broken off from the tree and Gentiles grafted in - I believe that neither Israel nor the Gentiles were from the root.

Look at it another way, it's like a car which has many parts; tires, doors, etc. If you mention a car, everyone knows that these parts make up a car. In the same way, a tree is made up of parts - branches, root, etc. Rom 11:17 confirms that Jesus is the Olive tree "But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root[c] of the olive tree,..

You claimed the scripture did not even once refer to Jesus as the Olive tree? Well, what about the above? I disagree on point, not malice.

I don't know where you saw the contradiction? I am satisfied that I made an unambiguous case that shows the passages you cited have been fulfilled.

[ewq1938]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

Rom 11:17 confirms that Jesus is the Olive tree "But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root[c] of the olive tree,..

clearly that verse does not say Jesus is the Olive tree. That's because he isn't. Jesus (and the Trinity) is the root of the tree, the tree is Israel, the branches are Israelites. The Israelites that remain on the tree remain Israelites, the ones removed cease to be Israelites spiritually speaking as they are no longer attached. The wild olive tree also represents a nation that is gentile. Some gentile branches were added to the Israel tree/nation who's root is Christ. So it doesn't make sense to have the tree represent Christ, when the wild tree was a gentile nation. Tree are nations, the root is God, the branches are individuals.

You claimed the scripture did not even once refer to Jesus as the Olive tree? Well, what about the above? I disagree on point, not malice.

I have to agree with the other person on this.

[Trivalee]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

The passage says they will be *Taken in Captivity*. Also the same is stated in Revelation 13:10. Funny how you made this whole point about the difference between disporia and exile and now you're trying to walk it back

The irony of your case is that you are arguing for a supposed future gathering of diaspora Jews to their homeland. Yet you're unwittingly strengthening my case that the gathering is already in place. Zech 14:2 which you cited refer to Jews IN Jerusalem (not the diaspora) being sent away as captives. So I ask you again, how this prove your case for a future gathering?

Ok, So those driven out by the AC will never return, interesting belief, one that I never heard before but then again your views on these subjects are Far from mainstream or biblically supported.

If only you can make the effort and post a detailed article on your position, it will be easier to understand. Right now, your case is all over the place. Believing Jews would have heeded the warning and fled into the desert for protection BEFORE Jerusalem falls to the beast. That means that the intransigent who refused to flee will most likely be slaughtered by the beast, either in Jerusalem or where they are taken to as captives. So if they are your idea of Jews to be gathered back to their homeland, that's not scripture.

Yea, when you believe it was fullfilled is irrelivant to me I just wanted to show everyone that your claims that "there's no corroboration that the gathering of Israel will be heralded by a trumpet." Is false.

Since it came from me I doubt you will acknowledge that your claim here is false but thats fine anyone who reads Isaiah 24-27 with open eyes (not blinded by personal hate for me) will be able to clearly see this was NOT fullfilled by the first gathering from babylon.

There is no more gathering of Israel. God who cannot lie has fulfilled his promise. For a Christian who doesn't believe he's in the new covenant, how can he understand that Israel has already been gathered and are thriving as prophesied?

[ewq1938]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

There is no more gathering of Israel. God who cannot lie has fulfilled his promise. For a Christian who doesn't believe he's in the new covenant, how can he understand that Israel has already been gathered and are thriving as prophesied?

How can a dead olive tree branch be considered as thriving?

[Jesuslovesus]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

The irony of your case is that you are arguing for a supposed future gathering of diaspora Jews to their homeland. Yet you're unwittingly strengthening my case that the gathering is already in place. Zech 14:2 which you cited refer to Jews IN Jerusalem (not the diaspora) being sent away as captives. So I ask you again, how this prove your case for a future gathering? If only you can make the effort and post a detailed article on your position, it will be easier to understand. Right now, your case is all over the place. Believing Jews would have heeded the warning and fled into the desert for protection BEFORE Jerusalem falls to the beast. That means that the intransigent who refused to flee will most likely be slaughtered by the beast, either in Jerusalem or where they are taken to as captives. So if they are your idea of Jews to be gathered back to their homeland, that's not scripture. There is no more gathering of Israel. God who cannot lie has fulfilled his promise. For a Christian who doesn't believe he's in the new covenant, how can he understand that Israel has already been gathered and are thriving as prophesied?

The point is you clearly aren't interested in "understanding" my position. I've laid it out pretty clearly multiple times, I've sent you the bible verses over 70 pages now, Using new ones most of the time. Today we covering Isaiah 24-27 before is was Deuteronomy 30 we went through Romans, Ezekiel, Zech, Rev. Started in Hebrews, I keep saying the same thing. You don't seem to "understand it". I've told you agreeing isn't the Goal but you just don't understand. I get your position quite well but at this point, your position is basically !fulfilled!. Essentially you are almost arguing from an Amil perspective who believe All OT prophesies where fulfilled in the past. As I mentioned before this is their whole position. Which is why your post on Ezekiel 37 (where you showed you own points put half of the passages fulfillment in the future) was so telling you're not Amil so you run into Huge difficulty when you rely on !Fulfilled!. Isaiah 27 is another great Example. You're claiming Apocalyptic OT passages have been fulfilled Historically.


But I don't know why you keep acting like my position is unclear.


I believe these prophecies will be fulfilled at the Second coming of Christ Along with the NC mentioned in those passages specifically Eze 36-39 and Jeremiah 30-31 what more do I Have to add? Explanations about how they will be fulfilled in the future? Supporting passages. Most of that has been outlined already, I mean your not the one asking my position how I would deal with specific passages.




Consider your own position are you Israel? (Since you're in the NC)?




Have You been Gathered to the Holy Land? (Or Is Everyone Raptured to Heaven forever)




Will you be Gathered in the Holy land in the Future? (Is The MK in the Future)?




When/, if you do get gatherd to Israel during the MK(IN the NJ), is that not Considered a "Regathering of Israel"?




OF course not! !Since there are no more gatherings of Israel! (<-----Trivallee Position)


Will the Patriarchs and all those who have died under the OLD Covenant ever live in the Holy Land?


OF course not! !Since there are no more gatherings of Israel! (<-----Trivallee Position)


Consider your own Position, You're the one claiming the Current Jews are the whole house of Israel(Reunited into one Nation). You're the One Claiming No more Future Regathering. You're the one claiming we are Already in the NC. How do all these claims make sense for today's Israel? How about Todays Jews?


You already know that in my view the Jews don't represent all of Israel. So, I don't know what stock strawman Jewish salvation you keep bringing in and trying to claim is what I believe, but it truely does sound Fanciful. Ideas like.




1. The Jews currently in Israel represent the united house of Israel.
2. That the House of David was rebuilt in the past.
3. That the Babylonian captivity also saw the return of the Israelites, 1 by 1,(I'm sure you don't mean this literally) from Egypt and Assyria(where the 10 northern tribes were scattered).
4. That the NC has begun and the HS is the Law written on our Hearts and Minds.


5. That the Elect gathered in Matthew 24:30 are not Israel.




I don't believe any of this so why should I answer for it.

[Jesuslovesus]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

The problem is you have nothing to say order than a repetition of your dream of a phantom future gathering. I'm yet to see post a least 100 -150-word article explaining why your claim is valid. Instead, all you have are either one-liners or a bunch of irrelevant questions (like the specific date a prophecy was fulfilled) belies the fact you have nothing more to add than a blatant rejection of everything I say.

What is this Phantom future gathering you think I believe in.

The one you claim happened in 1948?

The one described in OT passages?

The One you believe Will Happens at the Post-Trib Rapture?

I would really love to hear what you think I believe?

I also don't think I've rejected anything you said, I'm just hoping maybe just maybe that next passage will break through and help you understand my position. I wish everything i said actually helped you instead of leading you on some vendetta to prove me wrong. I remember the first time you made this specific thread years ago was because of one of our discussions in End times Chat where you asked my views on the Book of Hebrews. To me it goes that far for you personally rejecting everything I've believed. You ask, and when I told you and it's spawned multiple threads including this New one About will there being no Future Gathering. I'm really honestly just trying to help you. I hope that by exploring your own beliefs you can personally come to a deeper understanding for yourself.

None of this is really for me but it seems from your own post that you believe i'm doing it out of some hatred for you that I want to attack you or i'm out to get you.

The fact is I blame myself for you being here and so I feel I must take responsibility,


You call my questions Irrelevant and rabbit trails, sometimes you claim i have a vendetta, but people can lose their faith if these things aren't answered correctly it's why apologetics is so important and I honestly Hate doing Apologetics.

So I just present passages as many bible passages as I can and ask you to interact with them, it's clear you place no value in the opinions I give on these passages even when I do give them. You didn't like when I quoted the words of Scholors when you rejected my personal opinions.

Consider my challenge: I can't use my own opinions, I can't use the words of scholars or commentarys, I can't use bible passages, and you have a personal adversion to everthing i say rejecting it off hand.

But what I believe doesn't matter I can just share the word and occasially the opinions of others who agree with me. I'm not scared to stand alone to defend a position I personally believe it but I know my personal beliefs are my own and I don't force anyone to agree or attack those who don't. To me it's hard for you to understand what I believe, I understand but it's why your challenges to me so often miss. Your arguing with your personal caricatures of my beliefs, not my actual beliefs. Which is why occasionally we agree, it's because you took a moment to read what I said actually said and not some warped view of what you think I said.

When you Believe Deut 30:1-6 was fullfilled in extremely imporant for peoples doctrine it's not something you should claim was "fullfilled" just to score points in a debate. But notice I didn't say it was wrong, I just challenged you to explore what others who hold to this position believe note the dates they put forth and the doctrine they put forth from it. Make your own decision, try to understand the others position and why they believe it. And ask yourself honstly What 100-150 word article from me or anyone else has changed your views on any of the passages i've put forth to date? I personally think Walls writes beatifully and I understand 95% of what he says, same for DWM but it's clear to me that even what they say to you fall on deaf ears. I take the spoon feed method, i'm just gonna go passage by passage until i've covered every part of the bible I know then i'm gonna study some more and give you more passages.

[Jesuslovesus]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

I'm here to learn and increase in knowledge, therefore, I acknowledge sound doctrine when I see one. I've lost count on the number of times I have agreed with you on points.

And my only purpose here is to help you learn and increase your knowledge.

With regards Rom 11, I didn't disagree because it was *you* rather, I disagreed on a matter of doctrine. A TREE is made up of branches, leaves and root. But a root is not made up of branches. So when scripture says that Israel was broken off from the tree and Gentiles grafted in - I believe that neither Israel nor the Gentiles were from the root.


Look at it another way, it's like a car which has many parts; tires, doors, etc. If you mention a car, everyone knows that these parts make up a car. In the same way, a tree is made up of parts - branches, root, etc. Rom 11:17 confirms that Jesus is the Olive tree "But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root[c] of the olive tree,..

Like, I said it was me and it honestly seems like you disagreed because just because it was me. I feel that if FHG or Randy had originally said look Triv in the passage Jesus is the Root you would have thanked them. The passage says he's the Root, why can't we just Go with that? I could have quoted John 15 where Jesus himself uses the same analogy this time absent any mention of the tree. But at this point, it's impossible to sway you and I feel like me trying to help you have harmed you. How can I not take responsibility?


Today I saw a kid with his shoes on the wrong feet and I told him so, was I attacking him? Or trying to Help him? That's what it feels like, I casually say brother Trivalle your shoes on the wrong foot, and because you believe I hate you, you from then on wear your shoes on the wrong feet claiming everyone who tries to correct you is wrong. How can I not see it as my fault? How can I go back and fix the harm?

You claimed the scripture did not even once refer to Jesus as the Olive tree? Well, what about the above? I disagree on point, not malice.

Yes, Brother Never. I've looked multiple times for your sake the closest I got was Rev 11:4 about the 2W. The rest of the passages are in the OT, also there are multiple passages where Jesus is referred to as the Root absent any mention of a tree or Olive tree. For example John 15 , Romans 15:12, Rev 5:5 and Rev 22:16. Literally, two of Jesus Titles are the Root of David & The Root of Jesse.

I don't know where you saw the contradiction? I am satisfied that I made an unambiguous case that shows the passages you cited have been fulfilled.

You don't see the contradiction in Claiming that Ezekiel 37:20-28 has been fulfilled while simultaneously claiming that portions of it await a future fulfillment during the MK?

[Noeb]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

You did exegensis? Because i didn't see it. If you believe Deut 30:1-6 was fullfilled with the Babylonian exiles that's all you had to say. It is a minority position but I don't think you care about such things.

Paul quotes Deut 30 in Romans 10 so.....???

[Jesuslovesus]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

Paul quotes Deut 30 in Romans 10 so.....???

This was in response to post #1177 and I don't believe that passage was presented. But if you believe Romans 10 provides Exegesis as a proof for the case of a past fulfillment for Deut 30 I'm interested to see it

[percho]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

From Romans 11:1,2
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Amos 3:1:2 Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Romans 11:5

The whole family being two houses. The house of Judah, of which the house of David, the ruling family, was a part and the house of Israel.

Presently only the remnant is being elected and being baptized, by the Spirit, into the church, Mt Zion. However, God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. They are still scattered among the nations, both, the house of Judah and the house of Israel. This began with the house of Judah on Pentecost following the resurrection of Jesus giving them the Spirit and then was extended to the nations, giving them the Spirit also as he had the Judeans, Jews, as a people for the name of God, the remnant.

Relative to salvation that is what is still going on today. IMHO Whosoever will may come does not apply today. What applies today is Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

After this, after God is through calling the remnant, a people for his name; The day of firstfruits will be over. He, Jesus will return, will rebuild the tabernacle of David to begin saving all Israel.

The I will return is the first day of the seventh month, a day of rest, a holy convocation day, the feast of trumpets,

On the 10th day of the seventh month another holy convocation

On the fifteenth day another

On the 8th day following another.

These days are relative to salvation for people on the earth. 70 bulls are relative.

ON the 8th day when the reality of the shadow it represents comes, then Whosoever will may come. John 7:37,38 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

From Romans 11:1,2
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Amos 3:1:2 Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Romans 11:5

The whole family being two houses. The house of Judah, of which the house of David, the ruling family, was a part and the house of Israel.

Presently only the remnant is being elected and being baptized, by the Spirit, into the church, Mt Zion. However, God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. They are still scattered among the nations, both, the house of Judah and the house of Israel. This began with the house of Judah on Pentecost following the resurrection of Jesus giving them the Spirit and then was extended to the nations, giving them the Spirit also as he had the Judeans, Jews, as a people for the name of God, the remnant.

Relative to salvation that is what is still going on today. IMHO Whosoever will may come does not apply today. What applies today is Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

After this, after God is through calling the remnant, a people for his name; The day of firstfruits will be over. He, Jesus will return, will rebuild the tabernacle of David to begin saving all Israel.

The I will return is the first day of the seventh month, a day of rest, a holy convocation day, the feast of trumpets,

On the 10th day of the seventh month another holy convocation

On the fifteenth day another

On the 8th day following another.

These days are relative to salvation for people on the earth. 70 bulls are relative.

ON the 8th day when the reality of the shadow it represents comes, then Whosoever will may come. John 7:37,38 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

[Noeb]

Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

This was in response to post #1177 and I don't believe that passage was presented. But if you believe Romans 10 provides Exegesis as a proof for the case of a past fulfillment for Deut 30 I'm interested to see it

Well, God said he would be doing the circumcising so it seems rather obvious.