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Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

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  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Hebrews 9:15 - And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Verse 28 - so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

    So it appears that the new covenant was started upon the death of Christ, yet will we not see the full fruition of it until Christ returns? Just like believers have been saved from the penalty of sin now (justification) yet we will not see the full fruition of salvation until we have been saved from the presence of sin? (glorification) Does that make sense?
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

      Originally posted by Noeb View Post
      What? Circumcision of God is not hereditary. You have t believe. Have not Israeli descendants of the first church been circumcised by God [through faith] from then unto this day?


      What? Circumcision of God is not hereditary. You have t believe. Have not Israeli descendants of the first church been circumcised by God [through faith] from then unto this day?
      Seems like you're trying to give me the Runaround. To you mind answering my question instead of asking this one over and over again once more my question on your viewpoint pertains to the underlined and bolded portion of this passage and how your view believes it was fullfilled. ? Deuteronomy 30:6 And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

      So can you explain how you believe the Bolded and underlined position is fulfilled in the offspring of the Disciples or individual Israelites who get saved and in your view they're already in the NC with "circumcised hearts".

      My position on this matter is clear as has been from the beginning I believe the NC is Future, so No I do not believe Israeli descendants of the first church have been circumcised by God [through faith] from then unto this day?

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      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

        Originally posted by mailmandan View Post
        Hebrews 9:15 - And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Verse 28 - so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

        So it appears that the new covenant was started upon the death of Christ, yet will we not see the full fruition of it until Christ returns? Just like believers have been saved from the penalty of sin now (justification) yet we will not see the full fruition of salvation until we have been saved from the presence of sin? (glorification) Does that make sense?
        We seem to be tracking on the same thing about the start and the "full fruition" but I think the part that would show without a doubt that the NC did not begin yet is within the very passage you quoted. Notice the portion I bold. Hebrews 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Verse 28 - so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

        Ok

        1. His death was for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant.

        Who was under the First covenant?

        2. That those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

        What is the promised "Eternal Inheritance" under the First Covenant? Has it been Received? When will it be received? Who were those "called".

        I believe those answers can also be found in Hebrews See passages like Hebrews 11:8-40 the passage you yourself quoted in Hebrews 9:28. Also in the gospels ect. my point being here until I personally see the Israelites having received there eternal inheritance I personally still see them as a people under the first covenant, with indiviudals still being "Called" amoung them until the Full Fruition as seen in Ezekiel 37:25-26. That passage and what is outlined there to me would be what the NC in effect would look like.

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        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
          clearly that verse does not say Jesus is the Olive tree. That's because he isn't. Jesus (and the Trinity) is the root of the tree, the tree is Israel, the branches are Israelites. The Israelites that remain on the tree remain Israelites, the ones removed cease to be Israelites spiritually speaking as they are no longer attached. The wild olive tree also represents a nation that is gentile. Some gentile branches were added to the Israel tree/nation who's root is Christ. So it doesn't make sense to have the tree represent Christ, when the wild tree was a gentile nation. Tree are nations, the root is God, the branches are individuals.

          I have to agree with the other person on this.
          If you say so....

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          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

            Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
            How can a dead olive tree branch be considered as thriving?
            When you talk about the gathering of Israel, are you referring to a physical or spiritual gathering?

            1. If you are referring to a spiritual gathering (I'm sure that's not what you mean), then I agree that Israel, presently broken off, is not *thriving*.
            2. However, if you mean a physical gathering, then I don't know how anyone can deny that the modern state of Israel is now thriving?

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            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

              Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
              Yes but the majority live and die as unsaved apostates. So, not fully cast away but most are lost. How many unsaved Jews have died since the cross? What will happened to all of them? Even if the last generation will see a mass conversion of Jews to Christ, that's a drop of water in the ocean essentially.
              You raised a valid point. I suppose Isaiah prophecied it ages ago when he said: "though the number of Israel be as the sand of the sea for a number, a remnant shall be saved". The remnant denotes all the devout from Abraham, the Apostles to all the faithful up to the coming of Christ.

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              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                Originally posted by percho View Post
                I have a question or two.

                When God called Abram, what would be a good guess of how many people were living at that time? Was God's calling of Abram of salvation? In other words, of all the people living at that moment, was Abram the only one God saved according to what knowledge we are given?

                What are your thoughts?

                And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this judgment:
                I won't say that Abram was the only one in his age that was saved.

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                • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                  Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                  In Deut 30 God said the day would come when he would circumcise their heart. That's NC.
                  Indeed, Deut 30 was fulfilled when God sent his Spirit to indwell the heart of the faithful.

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                  • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                    Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
                    God's calling of Abram was to let him know that within his seed, all the nations of the earth would be blessed. That salvation would come through his seed. Within his seed would all the nations of the earth be blessed. His seed (being one which is Christ Jesus). Abram was given this covenant and an oath of circumcision, at which point was called Abraham.

                    For Abraham and his decedents, this entailed keeping the law of Moses and the works written therein. Therefore those that were sealed by his covenant, and kept the law of circumcision, being bound by the law, were bound by the law to do the things contained therein. And those who did them were justified by the Law of that covenant at the death/resurrection of Christ.

                    This covenant with Abraham and the seal of circumcision was to the intent, to deliver them to Christ, being to them a school master.

                    Galatians 3:
                    24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
                    25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
                    True, but the scripture also says the blessing of Abraham would come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ. Now, Gentiles were never part of the covenant of law, and ergo, saved by faith in Christ.

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                    • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                      2. However, if you mean a physical gathering, then I don't know how anyone can deny that the modern state of Israel is now thriving?
                      That isn't true "thriving" or else we can say China is "thriving".

                      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                      2. However, if you mean a physical gathering, then I don't know how anyone can deny that the modern state of Israel is now thriving?
                      That isn't true "thriving" or else we can say China is "thriving".
                      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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                      • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                        Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                        Have not Israeli descendants of the first church been circumcised by God from then unto this day?
                        You are correct. The circumcision of the heart now supercedes that of the flesh according to Paul (Rom 2:28).

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                        • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                          Originally posted by mailmandan View Post
                          Hebrews 9:15 - And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Verse 28 - so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

                          So it appears that the new covenant was started upon the death of Christ, yet will we not see the full fruition of it until Christ returns? Just like believers have been saved from the penalty of sin now (justification) yet we will not see the full fruition of salvation until we have been saved from the presence of sin? (glorification) Does that make sense?
                          It makes sense. Another way to understand it is that it is called an "eternal covenant". IOW, it has no end, so as it started on the cross, it will continue until Christ returns and into infinity.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                            Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                            That isn't true "thriving" or else we can say China is "thriving".
                            As far as life in this wicked earth is concerned, if Israel and China don't fit the category of thriving nations, I don't know who else is?

                            Comment


                            • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              As far as life in this wicked earth is concerned, if Israel and China don't fit the category of thriving nations, I don't know who else is?
                              Neither are striving. They are spiritually dead. True thriving isn't about wealth unless you think the rich man was thriving. He thought so until he saw the truth about his life.
                              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

                                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                                Neither are striving. They are spiritually dead. True thriving isn't about wealth unless you think the rich man was thriving. He thought so until he saw the truth about his life.
                                You completely misunderstood me then. When God said he will bless Abraham and his descendants he wasn't referring to their spiritual wellbeing only. My focus is on material wealth and in this regard, Israel is thriving.

                                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                                Neither are striving. They are spiritually dead. True thriving isn't about wealth unless you think the rich man was thriving. He thought so until he saw the truth about his life.
                                You completely misunderstood me then. When God said he will bless Abraham and his descendants he wasn't referring to their spiritual wellbeing only. My focus is on material wealth and in this regard, Israel is thriving.

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