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Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

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  • #16
    Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

    A quick question. What is it that makes the world religions listed in Daniel and Revelation different? After all, one could argue that England and the United States have been world empires, but they are not listed in there. I suspect that it has to do with person worship. Rome did not begin with person worship, having simply incorporated the Greek pantheon of gods, but with Caesar, they began person worship, which I believe was present in Babylon, the original. When we look at Revelation at the end times, it is a world empire built around person worship of the anti Christ. The endtimes Bablyon must have world wide economic and political power, but I think that the key is the false religion. If I look around the world now, only the Catholic church brings such international political and economic ties and could be turned to person worship if one does not consider that person worship over the Pope or Mary.

    The key is that Mystery Babylon is at its core a false religion - a counterfeit of the one true religion.

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    • #17
      Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

      That's interesting. I think you're on to something. Person worship does seem to be a big part of it.

      What always confuses me is Revelation 17:16 says the ten horns and the beast will hate the woman (Babylon) and destroy her. Babylon sounds like it will be powerful and influential but will ultimately be something the beast and the ten horns will despise; they may see her as standing in their way.

      Some believe the Pope as head of the RCC represents the second beast of Revelation 13 who will force everyone to worship the first beast. It doesn't make sense that the RCC could be both Babylon and the second beast of Revelation 13. If the Pope is the beast's left-hand man why would he then turn around and destroy him?

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      • #18
        Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

        Originally posted by Badger View Post
        That's interesting. I think you're on to something. Person worship does seem to be a big part of it.

        What always confuses me is Revelation 17:16 says the ten horns and the beast will hate the woman (Babylon) and destroy her.
        It only says the horns hate her, not either of the beasts.

        Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

        This happens when the AC is revealed as being a false god and the whole religion falls apart and Babylon represents the religion.
        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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        • #19
          Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

          ewq1938, a lot of translations say the beast and the horns. Is there some reason the version you have is better?

          The ten horns are working with the beast so either way it's logical to assume they have the same goal.

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          • #20
            Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

            Originally posted by Badger View Post
            ewq1938, a lot of translations say the beast and the horns. Is there some reason the version you have is better?
            Yes. I'm using the KJV and it's wording matches what is in the manuscripts it's based upon.

            The ten horns are working with the beast so either way it's logical to assume they have the same goal.
            Not when the ten kings and the people of their kingdoms find out the AC was a false God and the religion giving him worship was all in vain. The people will be angry and hate the whore which is the false religion they was fooled into accepting. Why would the beast hate the whore when the beast used the false religion as part of the deception of the AC claiming to be a god? Satan and the two beasts and Babylon as all the creation of satan...the kings and the people of their kingdoms are the ones that were deceived so it makes sense they would be angry.
            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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            • #21
              Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

              Revelation 17:12-14 says:

              "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them. . ."

              The ten horns side with the Antichrist at the end to make war with the Lamb. It doesn't sound like they turn on the Antichrist but side with him till the end.

              I was thinking about this, and it seems possible the ten horns and the Antichrist may turn on the woman in the end after using her for their own ends. In this scenario she could be Rome, as well as the second beast from Revelation 13.

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              • #22
                Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

                Rev 11:8 identifies the 'great city'. It is Jerusalem.

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                • #23
                  Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

                  Originally posted by WITDNM View Post
                  Rev 11:8 identifies the 'great city'. It is Jerusalem.
                  Revelation 11:8 (Darby); "and their body [shall be] on the street of the great city, which is called spiritually Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified."

                  "Babylon" is not mentioned. Babylon stands for false religion. Sodom stands for "seeking strange flesh". Egypt stands for (i) the World, and (ii) man declaring himself divine when he is not (Pharaoh). Here are the proofs that Babylon of Revelation 17 is Rome. I leave the whole of Revelation Chapter 17 below for reference.
                  • The world has seen 6 World Empires - Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome. According to Daniel, which was written when TWO of these SIX had already passed, shows that the FOURTH of the remaining FOUR is in power when our Lord Jesus comes to crush Gentile rule to powder. Thus Rome is the fourth world power of Daniel
                  • "Sits on many waters" etc., is explained in verse 15 as the nations of this world. Since all of the 6 world powers traded politics and goods this is valid for Rome, but also the others
                  • "Seven Heads" is explained in verse 9 - seven "hills" (the Greek means "as lifting above the plains"). Of the six world powers this can only apply to Rome. None of the other powers' main city was on seven hills
                  • "And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus" can only be Rome. The other world powers were before Jesus and His disciples
                  • "The Beast that thou sawest was, and is not" - the Beast has already lived and died
                  • "He shall ascend out of the bottomless pit" - Hades where dead men go. This means he will be resurrected
                  • "was, is not and yet is" means he was once a king, is not one now and yet is a king in waiting
                  • "is not" is decisive. It means he IS not a king while John is writing. But he is OF the last five. The last five kings of John's time were Roman kings
                  • "eighth (king)" - "eight" is number of resurrection (for Jesus was raised on the day after the seventh). This Beast will be raised from the dead and is future. This could only be Rome
                  • "ten kings having not yet received their kingdoms" means they are future to John's time. This leaves only Rome
                  • "the number of his NAME is 666" (Rev13:18). In Hebrew and Greek, the two languages of the Bible, each letter has a numerical value. ONLY "Caesar Nero" adds up to 666.
                  • Nero - one of five Roman kings who had died by John's time, and who will be resurrected from the dead at the end of this age to be the greatest persecutor of Christians then, and in the the future.

                  Mystery Babylon the Great is ROME, but with the RELIGION of Babylon.


                  FOR REFERENCE: Revelation 17:1-18
                  1 "And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
                  2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
                  3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
                  4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
                  5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
                  6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
                  7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
                  8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
                  9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
                  10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
                  11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
                  12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
                  13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
                  14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
                  15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
                  16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
                  17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
                  18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

                    Originally posted by WITDNM View Post
                    Rev 11:8 identifies the 'great city'. It is Jerusalem.
                    It isn't called Babylon but Sodom and Egypt.

                    In verse 2 before the GT starts Jerusalem is called "the holy city". Only during the 42 months of the AC's reign does the city become "Sodom and Egypt" because the abomination causes a spiritual desolation. By 11:8 the GT is almost over. Never once is Jerusalem called Babylon, and Jerusalem is a literal city where Babylon is a symbolic city, symbolized by a religious whore.

                    Originally posted by WITDNM View Post
                    Rev 11:8 identifies the 'great city'. It is Jerusalem.
                    It isn't called Babylon but Sodom and Egypt.

                    In verse 2 before the GT starts Jerusalem is called "the holy city". Only during the 42 months of the AC's reign does the city become "Sodom and Egypt" because the abomination causes a spiritual desolation. By 11:8 the GT is almost over. Never once is Jerusalem called Babylon, and Jerusalem is a literal city where Babylon is a symbolic city, symbolized by a religious whore.
                    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

                      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                      It isn't called Babylon but Sodom and Egypt.

                      In verse 2 before the GT starts Jerusalem is called "the holy city". Only during the 42 months of the AC's reign does the city become "Sodom and Egypt" because the abomination causes a spiritual desolation. By 11:8 the GT is almost over. Never once is Jerusalem called Babylon, and Jerusalem is a literal city where Babylon is a symbolic city, symbolized by a religious whore.



                      It isn't called Babylon but Sodom and Egypt.

                      In verse 2 before the GT starts Jerusalem is called "the holy city". Only during the 42 months of the AC's reign does the city become "Sodom and Egypt" because the abomination causes a spiritual desolation. By 11:8 the GT is almost over. Never once is Jerusalem called Babylon, and Jerusalem is a literal city where Babylon is a symbolic city, symbolized by a religious whore.
                      If it were clearly literally Babylon, a city which was never to be rebuilt, it would not be a mystery. So of course Jerusalem is not directly referred to as Babylon though there are inferences. It is a mystery.

                      Babylon the Great identity has been a mystery. However through study it can be determined to be Jerusalem not of old, but yet to be. A new Jerusalem upon the earth

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

                        Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                        If it were clearly literally Babylon, a city which was never to be rebuilt, it would not be a mystery. So of course Jerusalem is not directly referred to as Babylon though there are inferences. It is a mystery.

                        Babylon the Great identity has been a mystery. However through study it can be determined to be Jerusalem not of old, but yet to be. A new Jerusalem upon the earth
                        Jerusalem shall change as I showed but it's too small to be Babylon. Gotta always think bigger when it comes to these end times things. That false religion will cover the entire world and it sure won't be Judaism.
                        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

                          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                          Jerusalem shall change as I showed but it's too small to be Babylon. Gotta always think bigger when it comes to these end times things. That false religion will cover the entire world and it sure won't be Judaism.
                          Will there be even a religion? What will the need for religion when they have God? Will Christ have a religion?

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                          • #28
                            Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

                            Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                            Will there be even a religion? What will the need for religion when they have God?
                            A God and religion goes hand in hand because religion is the process of worshiping and serving that God.

                            Will Christ have a religion?
                            Yes. It's Christianity, but in it's purest form without all the man made additions just like how Judaism was corrupted by the same things. Humans love to add, add, add to what God sets forth

                            Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                            Will there be even a religion? What will the need for religion when they have God?
                            A God and religion goes hand in hand because religion is the process of worshiping and serving that God.

                            Will Christ have a religion?
                            Yes. It's Christianity, but in it's purest form without all the man made additions just like how Judaism was corrupted by the same things. Humans love to add, add, add to what God sets forth
                            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

                              Originally posted by Servant1981 View Post
                              A quick question. What is it that makes the world religions listed in Daniel and Revelation different? After all, one could argue that England and the United States have been world empires, but they are not listed in there. I suspect that it has to do with person worship. Rome did not begin with person worship, having simply incorporated the Greek pantheon of gods, but with Caesar, they began person worship, which I believe was present in Babylon, the original. When we look at Revelation at the end times, it is a world empire built around person worship of the anti Christ. The endtimes Bablyon must have world wide economic and political power, but I think that the key is the false religion. If I look around the world now, only the Catholic church brings such international political and economic ties and could be turned to person worship if one does not consider that person worship over the Pope or Mary.

                              The key is that Mystery Babylon is at its core a false religion - a counterfeit of the one true religion.
                              As I've said elsewhere, this is explained as a correlation between Rev 13 and Dan 7. The 4th beast of Dan 7 is the beast of Rev 13. This is the final beast on earth before the coming of the Kingdom of God.

                              You may ask how an empire that seemed to fall in 476 AD could've led to the coming of God's Kingdom? Quite simply, in the prophecy in Dan 7, the 4th beast breaks up into 10 nations. Indeed, the Roman Imperial Tradition has continued through much of NT history, and has indeed broken up into a number of states, several of which have claimed to be heir to this imperial tradition. Ultimately, 10 nations will united around the "little horn" of Dan 7, aka the Antichrist.

                              The religious element in the Roman tradition consisted of paganism and emperor worship. This has been the regular temptress of Western civilization, which has ultimately capitulated to a plurality of religions, and to outright paganism. It won't be long until Europe is willing to worship its central political figure, the Antichrist.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

                                Originally posted by randyk View Post
                                Quite simply, in the prophecy in Dan 7, the 4th beast breaks up into 10 nations.
                                The beast does not break up into other nations. It is intact all the way until it is destroyed.

                                Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

                                Gill:

                                it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it; it devoured nations, broke kingdoms in pieces, and brought them in subjection to them; reducing them to the greatest servitude, and obliging them to pay heavy taxes and tribute:
                                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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