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  • #46
    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Originally posted by Follower1977 View Post
    okay so then you now agree the law wasn't a system of faith. We've come closer together on this point.

    I'd say the reason it wasn't of faith , is what Paul says though makes perfect sense, it's based not on believing Gods word and acting in faith, but it's based on " if you do this you will surely die" .......so see it's about sin, and death by sin. Don't do this,,,if you do you must surely be put to death....don't do this other thing , if you do you will surely be cut off from the people...don't do this thing either, or you must surely be burned in the fire...don't do this other thing or you must surely be stoned, don't do this other thing, or you must surely be strangled...


    This doesn't reflect the gospel, it's the thing that brings us to the need for the gospel. It's meant to teach us 1 what sin is. 2 that even if we don't commit adultery, we lie, or steal, or covet, or do something within the law that proves we are sinners. So 1 we learn what are the actions of sin, 2 that as well as we think of ourselves beforehand, we will find serious flaws in our nature looking into a holy law. We learn sin is not acceptable, sinners must surely die, or be cut off from the people. We learn these kinds of things to the good purpose of creating a sincere need for salvation.


    if you save a man who's having a family picnic at a park, he's not going to accept your saving him, why would he? He's not doing anything wrong, to him your just some crazy guy talking about salvation.

    but if you go into death row, the night before a man is executed, and save him.....your going to find a receptive man, who's life just changed forever.

    a sinner can't be saved if they don't know thier a sinner. But when a sinner knows sin is condemned by al ighty God, and they understand I'm a sinner, what shall they do then? Do you think those folks would be ready and waiting for a savior especially if a lot of men came saying " one day I will send a savior who will bear your iniquity, by his wounds you will be healed, the punishments that will bring you peace , I will put on him...he's going to give his life in exchange for your lives...he's going to tell you my words of everlasting life, wait for him, hear his words because those are the words I will require, ...


    it's why the Pharisees had rejected him, they trusted in Moses, and the law for salvation, when it was only there for an accusation against them, a witness saying yes you are sinners to, they trusted in Moses, rather than the anointed messiah.

    “And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

    Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

    For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?”
    **John‬ *5:38-40, 45-47‬ *KJV‬‬


    Moses and the law is there for accusation or like I showed you " a witness against sinners" that is its purpose. Jesus is there for saving those sinners accused by the law, through his word of life, the gospel.

    that's why Jesus doesn't teach the same things Moses did.
    No, I don't agree that the Law had no basis in faith. It just wasn't Christ's system of faith. The Law was intended to operate by faith. But it was not meant to be a replacement for Christ--only a temporary means of righteousness, to keep Israel in covenant with God, until Christ came.

    Yes, the Law showed what sin was. And it showed Israel their dependence, in faith, upon God's word, to give them the means of righteousness. This righteousness is no different from Christian righteousness except that Christian righteousness is fulfilled righteousness, and now has the means of giving us eternal life.

    The Law was never meant to be a system of human independence and self-sufficiency in matters of righteousness. Righteousness was always meant to be by dependence upon God. However, the righteousness of the Law lacked the completion of Christ's work on the cross. Therefore, Israel was left with a righteousness that could not accomplish salvation.

    This was not just a witness against sinners. It was a means for sinners to live in righteousness, albeit an uncompleted righteousness. Moses saw that atonement was needed beyond the temporal shadows of the Law. He therefore anticipated the coming of the future "Prophet." This was the Messiah who would provide eternal atonement, and not just temporal atonement.

    If Paul condemned those who tried to live under the Law at all, it was because Christ had already fulfilled righteousness, and these men were trying to go back to living under an uncompleted righteousness. As such, they were turning away from Christ and turning to self-sufficiency in matters of salvation, which was never the purpose of the Law. In turning away from Christ back to the Law they were choosing a system that never could provide salvation, and yet operated by faith. In choosing against Christ to turn back to the Law they were consciously rejecting faith, as it was intended to be fulfilled in Christ.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Condemnation, and a savior

      Originally posted by Follower1977 View Post
      Another really good use for the law to those of us now in Christ.


      the gospel for instance forbids sexual immorality, but it really doesn't distinguish a whole lot what is sexually moral and what is not sexually moral, so if we're hazy on that we go to the law for the knowledge of sin. Just an example here note the theme sin and death here....


      “And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

      And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

      And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.


      a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

      And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.

      And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast. And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast:

      they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

      And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.

      And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people. And thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister, nor of thy father's sister: for he uncovereth his near kin: they shall bear their iniquity.

      And if a man shall lie with his uncle's wife, he hath uncovered his uncle's nakedness: they shall bear their sin; they shall die childless. And

      if a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing: he hath uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless. Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out.”
      **Leviticus‬ *20:10-22‬ *KJV‬‬


      see there how it's a commandment to put the sinners to death? So it doesn't matter if they did it or not, if they didn't they broke a direct command from God to put them to death, or cut them off from the people...and again here you see how it repeatedly says " they shall bear thier iniquity? It doesn't say if they commit adultery then they bring a goat to the priest and he will sacrifice it, and it will bear thier iniquity....


      but we know that in Christ he bore our iniquity.

      the law is good , still has good use for,learning things that aren't addressed in the gospel, but it's intent was not ever for salvation, forgiveness, or a real relationship with God. Gods will is not that we are terrified to,hear him speak....but that we come close to him in faith knowing he is able to take away our sins and make us right before him. In order that we know him as a Father.

      his will isn't that he is high above looking down on terrified servants, but that those he loves come near to him and love him in return. That doesn't happen in the mosaic law, it can't.
      False. The Law terrified Israel in the same way that Christ should now terrify us! There is no difference. God's judgment is the same in both testaments.

      Heb 12.25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven?

      The present system of Grace only means that God is now giving all nations opportunity to know the truth and repent--not just Israel. And it means that righteousness can result in final liberation from the condemnation of sin. The Law only provided temporary assurance.

      The laws against sexual uncleanness led to death for the obstinate, just as they do today. See the AIDS epidemic. However, ignorance mitigates judgment, to some extent. Those who sinned in the OT, under the Law of Moses, were not always put to death for sexual sins that incurred capital punishment. That's because God is a God of mercy, and takes into consideration human ignorance, and the willfulness, or not, of the individual.

      The laws that led to capital punishment, therefore, presupposed obstinacy in the offending individuals, because the Law of Moses was given under a theocracy in which it was understood, nation-wide, what the standards of citizenship were.

      By contrast, I live in a secular state, governed by laws of religious pluralism. There is therefore lots of ignorance, and I should not think God is quick to put to death all homosexuals, adulterers, etc. Many were raised with little or tainted knowledge of God.

      Judgment applied perhaps quicker in an OT theocracy, but the standards are the same today, based on the knowledge and obstinacy of the individual. The whole world is to be judged at the coming of Christ, after the gospel has had an adequate opportunity to warn all nations.

      "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Condemnation, and a savior

        Originally posted by randyk View Post
        Right, I think you understand *some* of the Scriptures. In all honesty I've been in the Scriptures my entire life, and I'm retired now. I still have some trouble understanding Paul! So when Paul says the Law is not Faith, this is not easily understood, as even Peter acknowledged. Paul tends to summarize things in abbreviated, coded words.

        For Paul, Faith represents a system of eternal justification. Thus, the Law was not Faith, because it did not provide eternal satisfaction to God. It fell short of Faith because it was unable to grab hold of a means beyond human condemnation.

        This did not mean the Law did not operate through faith--it certainly did, as even Moses said, "the word is near you so that you may do it." This is *faith!*

        However, Paul was using "Faith" as a coded abbreviation for a *system of faith.* The Law operated by faith but could not accomplish what only Christ's system of faith could accomplish: complete justification.

        The Law represented human condemnation not because it didn't provide righteousness, but rather, because it condemned Man universally without the sacrifice of Christ being accomplished yet. If all Man had was the Law, he could do right all day long, and still be condemned as one having a sin nature worthy of death.

        So Paul wasn't stating the Law was horrible. He was just stating that now that it had been fulfilled by "Faith," it is entirely foolish to go back to a system of righteousness that fell short of complete justification. Without Christ's justification the Law was only a system of righteousness that kept Man guilty of the sin nature and worthy of death.


        it seems as if everything's " coded" ..... I guess you have some sort of way of understanding things which I don't bro, but I've said plenty here and showed you the scriptures , that's shape my faith. I understand everyone has thier views of things though, so I do appreciate the convo.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Condemnation, and a savior

          Originally posted by randyk View Post
          False. The Law terrified Israel in the same way that Christ should now terrify us! There is no difference. God's judgment is the same in both testaments.

          Heb 12.25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven?

          The present system of Grace only means that God is now giving all nations opportunity to know the truth and repent--not just Israel. And it means that righteousness can result in final liberation from the condemnation of sin. The Law only provided temporary assurance.

          The laws against sexual uncleanness led to death for the obstinate, just as they do today. See the AIDS epidemic. However, ignorance mitigates judgment, to some extent. Those who sinned in the OT, under the Law of Moses, were not always put to death for sexual sins that incurred capital punishment. That's because God is a God of mercy, and takes into consideration human ignorance, and the willfulness, or not, of the individual.

          The laws that led to capital punishment, therefore, presupposed obstinacy in the offending individuals, because the Law of Moses was given under a theocracy in which it was understood, nation-wide, what the standards of citizenship were.

          By contrast, I live in a secular state, governed by laws of religious pluralism. There is therefore lots of ignorance, and I should not think God is quick to put to death all homosexuals, adulterers, etc. Many were raised with little or tainted knowledge of God.

          Judgment applied perhaps quicker in an OT theocracy, but the standards are the same today, based on the knowledge and obstinacy of the individual. The whole world is to be judged at the coming of Christ, after the gospel has had an adequate opportunity to warn all nations.

          "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

          ok bro...... Thanks for all the insight , be blessed

          Originally posted by randyk View Post
          No, I don't agree that the Law had no basis in faith. It just wasn't Christ's system of faith. The Law was intended to operate by faith. But it was not meant to be a replacement for Christ--only a temporary means of righteousness, to keep Israel in covenant with God, until Christ came.

          Yes, the Law showed what sin was. And it showed Israel their dependence, in faith, upon God's word, to give them the means of righteousness. This righteousness is no different from Christian righteousness except that Christian righteousness is fulfilled righteousness, and now has the means of giving us eternal life.

          The Law was never meant to be a system of human independence and self-sufficiency in matters of righteousness. Righteousness was always meant to be by dependence upon God. However, the righteousness of the Law lacked the completion of Christ's work on the cross. Therefore, Israel was left with a righteousness that could not accomplish salvation.

          This was not just a witness against sinners. It was a means for sinners to live in righteousness, albeit an uncompleted righteousness. Moses saw that atonement was needed beyond the temporal shadows of the Law. He therefore anticipated the coming of the future "Prophet." This was the Messiah who would provide eternal atonement, and not just temporal atonement.

          If Paul condemned those who tried to live under the Law at all, it was because Christ had already fulfilled righteousness, and these men were trying to go back to living under an uncompleted righteousness. As such, they were turning away from Christ and turning to self-sufficiency in matters of salvation, which was never the purpose of the Law. In turning away from Christ back to the Law they were choosing a system that never could provide salvation, and yet operated by faith. In choosing against Christ to turn back to the Law they were consciously rejecting faith, as it was intended to be fulfilled in Christ.


          ok , I'll stick with things clearly taught in scripture.

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Condemnation, and a savior

            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            When I refer to the Law as "inept," I'm not saying it was "imperfect." I was saying it was incapable of providing complete legal justification for us in our sin. Only Jesus could do that.

            I agree with you that the Law served to show our sin so that we could repent of it. But still the Law was inept inasmuch as it could not deliver us from our sin completely. It could only temporarily cover Israel's sin so that they could remain in relationship with God under that covenant.

            The Law did *not* just show man what he could not do for himself, that he was a helpless sinner. Rather, it showed him that he could in fact do good, obey God, and find a basis for relationship with God through faith. It just could not *complete* our justification. It could not *eternally redeem* us from sin. Only Christ could do that.

            where is the scripture for this though lol? You know what I mean alllll these things your correcting here, where does any of this exist in scripture? That's sort of important when discussing the bible that , your understanding of things is actually in the bible. I know you seem to think quoting scripture is t necessary I guess or something, but why are the things I'm saying, then very clearly stated by not only Paul but the other scriptures, and then you just explain its coded and hidden it doesn't really say what it says?

            to me , it just says what it says, it's not a mysterious thing, it's very plainly there..... Especially when Paul is quoting things and then explaining them lol....

            this is sort of becoming an unfruitful thing at this point for me, I appreciate the time you've taken in the discussion but I'm not looking for secret I owe,due and codes and things, I'm more of a biblical believer.

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Condemnation, and a savior

              Originally posted by Follower1977 View Post
              where is the scripture for this though lol? You know what I mean alllll these things your correcting here, where does any of this exist in scripture? That's sort of important when discussing the bible that , your understanding of things is actually in the bible. I know you seem to think quoting scripture is t necessary I guess or something, but why are the things I'm saying, then very clearly stated by not only Paul but the other scriptures, and then you just explain its coded and hidden it doesn't really say what it says?

              to me , it just says what it says, it's not a mysterious thing, it's very plainly there..... Especially when Paul is quoting things and then explaining them lol....

              this is sort of becoming an unfruitful thing at this point for me, I appreciate the time you've taken in the discussion but I'm not looking for secret I owe,due and codes and things, I'm more of a biblical believer.
              The problem I've gotten from people like you is that when I actually try to explain what the Bible is saying, I'm accused of not quoting the Bible. In reality, I've been quoting the Bible all along, and don't wish to do so ad nauseum. The problem is not one of quoting the Bible, but of *understanding* what the Bible means when it is quoted.

              Just explaining what the Bible means is not failure to quote the Bible. It is expressing *my view* of what the Bible means. You say this is unbiblical. And to that I would say, just quoting the Bible isn't necessarily "biblical" either, particularly if the quotation is expressing an inaccurate understanding of the quotation.

              I have to question why you think certain points I've made have to be reinforced by Scripture when they have long-standing acceptance?

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Condemnation, and a savior

                Originally posted by Follower1977 View Post
                it seems as if everything's " coded" ..... I guess you have some sort of way of understanding things which I don't bro, but I've said plenty here and showed you the scriptures , that's shape my faith. I understand everyone has thier views of things though, so I do appreciate the convo.
                I've explained what I mean by "coded"--it is Paul's way of abbreviating a long-understood Jewish concept, avoiding unnecessarily lengthy explanations. The idea that Paul speaks in "coded language" is my way of saying what Peter said, that Paul can be difficult to understand.

                This is not "unbiblical," brother. The fact I use the word "coded" does not render the principle "unscriptural." The evidence that Peter supports this view is clearly "biblical." My interpretation is always going to be "my interpretation," just as your view will be "your interpretation."

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Condemnation, and a savior

                  Originally posted by randyk View Post
                  The problem I've gotten from people like you is that when I actually try to explain what the Bible is saying, I'm accused of not quoting the Bible. In reality, I've been quoting the Bible all along, and don't wish to do so ad nauseum. The problem is not one of quoting the Bible, but of *understanding* what the Bible means when it is quoted.

                  Just explaining what the Bible means is not failure to quote the Bible. It is expressing *my view* of what the Bible means. You say this is unbiblical. And to that I would say, just quoting the Bible isn't necessarily "biblical" either, particularly if the quotation is expressing an inaccurate understanding of the quotation.

                  I have to question why you think certain points I've made have to be reinforced by Scripture when they have long-standing acceptance?

                  yes that's always the argument of people when there is no scripture to support thier belief. I told you bro, in the beginning of this comversation I'm not looking for someone else's ideas. The issue you have is your argument about this topic, is an argument against what scripture clearly says. People shouldn't just let others explain things unless they do have clear scripture.....like all the ones I've offered you.

                  I'm too old to fall back into depending on someone giving me thier understanding , I'm always open , but not for things that don't exist in scripture....after all this is a bible discussion forum. When people begin explaining things opposite of what's there it's always a red flag for me.

                  that being said, I have no sort of ill will against you or anything, and sincerely hope there are other topics where we can find agreement. As a brother I would suggest just getting your understanding from the scripture. It's hard sometimes to let go of what we think, but it's beneficial to let thinking line up with the scripture it's been there for a few thousand years, it has much more credibility than someone like me , or you explaining what we think.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

                    Originally posted by randyk View Post
                    I've explained what I mean by "coded"--it is Paul's way of abbreviating a long-understood Jewish concept, avoiding unnecessarily lengthy explanations. The idea that Paul speaks in "coded language" is my way of saying what Peter said, that Paul can be difficult to understand.

                    This is not "unbiblical," brother. The fact I use the word "coded" does not render the principle "unscriptural." The evidence that Peter supports this view is clearly "biblical." My interpretation is always going to be "my interpretation," just as your view will be "your interpretation."
                    naw that's where you are wrong , I've given you Paul's argument, I don't know anything, if anyone is waiting for " my views" they are off track, my only good message is stay within the understanding offered by Gods word and let the word shape what a person thinks. Again the law is not of faith , that's not my opinion or view it's Paul's.

                    here's where you should understand is is not me explaining anything to you, it's the apostle Paul speaking from the power of,the Holy Spirit, not as an Old Testament prophet, but speaking from revelation given him by Jesus Christ.

                    “So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

                    For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

                    But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.


                    Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

                    But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

                    Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”
                    **Galatians‬ *3:9-14, 23-26‬ *KJV‬‬


                    that's what Paul is saying, is that not very plainly stated? Paul - the law is not of faith.....you - yes the law is of faith ....coded this and explain this....Paul - before faith came we we kept under the law , u til faith came , after faith has come we are no longer under the law , that was for the purpose of leading people to Christ.....you - naw listen to my understanding , it's not in the scripture you just know the scripture but I have the understanding...


                    I'm always going to go with the understanding in the scriptures.....

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Condemnation, and a savior

                      Faith alone without any works is dead.
                      And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Condemnation, and a savior

                        Originally posted by randyk View Post
                        I've explained what I mean by "coded"--it is Paul's way of abbreviating a long-understood Jewish concept, avoiding unnecessarily lengthy explanations. The idea that Paul speaks in "coded language" is my way of saying what Peter said, that Paul can be difficult to understand.

                        This is not "unbiblical," brother. The fact I use the word "coded" does not render the principle "unscriptural." The evidence that Peter supports this view is clearly "biblical." My interpretation is always going to be "my interpretation," just as your view will be "your interpretation."

                        you keep stating this that Peter said , it has nothing to do with coded abbreviations at all, it has to do with people who distort Paul's letters, claiming faith and works are opposite. It's a warning not to listen to ignorant and unstable people. Who twist his scriptures into what they aren't....I'm sorry but that's not what I've done, I've intentionally quoted the context along with what I'm saying .


                        “And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

                        Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.”
                        **2 Peter‬ *3:15-17‬ *KJV‬‬

                        that's not something Paul then adjusted his epistles with " coded abbreviations " it's Peter explaining that some people might do this with his letters...observe you'll probably recognize this as a foundation for hyper grace DISCLAIMER this is not at all what I believe it's just an example how people twist Paul's letters....

                        “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
                        **Ephesians‬ *2:8-9‬ *KJV‬‬

                        and then maybe they'll quote this also

                        “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”
                        **Galatians‬ *2:16‬ *KJV‬‬

                        so then they will begin saying " see see, we do nothing, we have no law, were saved because Jesus obeyed the law , see Jesus taught the mosaic law too and no one is saved by those darn works of the law ...ect...ect.

                        its about the most popular doctrine in the world right now, doctrine based directly on distortions such as this of Paul's letters, they never ever wrote a full chapter or seldom a paragraph because it destroys thier doctrine of they do. You show them something like this


                        “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
                        **Galatians‬ *5:19-21‬ *KJV‬‬


                        and say " doesn't this mean we still have to repent of the works of the flesh explained here?

                        then they'll say something like " you have to properly " divide the word of truth , and explain " everything Jesus said before the " finished works of the cross, isn't for the church .....ect ect


                        it has nothing to do with Paul using coded abbreviations in his letters, these men Peter, Paul, John , James ....they were speaking , writing the things of the Holy Ghost they weren't altering things based on logic or mans thinking Peter was just explaining beware because Paul's letters are easily distorted by people who don't k ow the gospel, people who just see a few verses and then form a new grace alone faith has no works, your all saved just say grace grace and your healed or just say grace and you are saved..."


                        it sounds silly , but I've had many of discussions just like that. It's true Paul is not easily understood , it's not because he uses abbreviations sometimes it takes reading two full chapters to grasp his points, they are very very long and he uses many analogies, quotes many prophetic Old Testament scriptures, he was very eloquent writer, probably the most beautiful chapters on the bible were penned by Paul, if we first make a foundation on the gospel , then Paul's letters are just pure revelation into the gospel.

                        God bless , I hope we can find a different subject, I like discussion with a brother who obviously has some good understanding like you do, on this particular subject though , I'm sorry to have to disagree and stick with the plain clear truth of scripture.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Condemnation, and a savior

                          Originally posted by David ben Jesse View Post
                          Faith alone without any works is dead.


                          um yeah I agree , we have the works taught by Jesus Christ to follow ....not those of Moses though. Our law is the things Jesus Christ taught....

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Condemnation, and a savior

                            Matthew 22:36-40* Master, which is the great commandment in the law?*Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.*This is the first and great commandment.*And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.*On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
                            And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Condemnation, and a savior

                              Originally posted by David ben Jesse View Post
                              Matthew 22:36-40* Master, which is the great commandment in the law?*Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.*This is the first and great commandment.*And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.*On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

                              who teaches us to love one another? Here's the love you have pointed out a few examples

                              “Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: <<<< the law of Moses


                              But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”. .... The gospel taught by the lord...
                              **Matthew‬ *5:38-39‬ *KJV‬‬


                              which is love? to take equal vengeance upon someone? Or , is it to turn the other cheek , forgive them don't take revenge?

                              we follow Christ and his word.

                              again

                              “Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. <<<< the law of Moses you were to smite thy enemy and love thy neighbor.

                              But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.”<<<<< the gospel of the lord Jesus Christ
                              **Matthew‬ *5:43-45‬ *KJV‬‬

                              which is love?


                              Or consider other elements of the law of Moses

                              “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them. If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.”
                              **Leviticus‬ *20:9-14‬ *KJV‬‬

                              did Jesus follow the mosaic law?

                              the gospel

                              “And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? <<<< absolutely correct.

                              So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

                              And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

                              When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”
                              **John‬ *8:3-5, 7, 9-12‬ *KJV‬‬


                              which is love ? To stone the other sinners? Or are we on the gospel commanded to forgive sinners and not cast stones at our fellow imperfect guilty condemned brethren?

                              we Christians are obligated by his blood to follow his words where they lead us.

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                              • #60
                                Re: Condemnation, and a savior

                                Originally posted by David ben Jesse View Post
                                Matthew 22:36-40* Master, which is the great commandment in the law?*Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.*This is the first and great commandment.*And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.*On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

                                here's another really simple reply

                                “Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

                                But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.”
                                **1 John‬ *3:16-19‬ *KJV‬‬

                                here's another good example of real faith working

                                “What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”
                                **James‬ *2:14-17‬ *KJV‬‬


                                to say " I love everyone " is nice, but it's not fulfilling anything taught by God, Jesus teaches us to love in deed in truth , his way, Gods way. It's actually not possible to follow both the mosaic law, and the gospel they are contrary at too many points

                                Moses says if your not pleased with your wife divorce her send her away, you may both re marry....Jesus says if you divorce your wife for any reason other than adultery, you are causing her to be an adulterer and anyone you re marry and she remarries are now adulterers...contrary two different directives.

                                Moses says if you swear an oath to God , make positive you fulfill the oath...Jesus says make no,oaths and swear by nothing to God.

                                two different directives. It's like that quite often , it's why we have a New Testament, a new high priest, a new covenant, a new mediator , new blood .....new law as well. We have the law of life in Christ, they had the law for the knowledge of,sin .

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