Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Originally posted by Walls View Post
    I don't believe what I'm seeing.
    • FIRST you discard the plain and unambiguous meaning of "ALL Israel shall be saved".
    • SECOND, you admit the Land was PROMISED to Abraham and his descendants, but make the CONDITION "faithfulness". But no verses is forthcoming. You quote brother Noeb who ALSO gave no verses
    • THIRD, you willingly discard the Covenant of PROMISE which is CLEARLY, PLAINLY AND UNAMBIGUOUSLY BASED ON CIRCUMCISION (Gen.17:7-14, etc.)
    • FOURTH, you say that only the faithful will partake of the Land BUT HEBREWS 11 SAYS THE CONTRARY. The faithful DID NOT RECEIVE THE PROMISE
    • FIFTH, you say that only the faithful will partake of the Land, but Numbers 12:7 and Hebrews 3:2, 5 say, "My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house - AND MOSES POINTEDLY DID NOT ENTER THE LAND
    • SIXTH, Israel was ejected from their Land for being UNFAITHFUL. That is - THE UNFAITHFUL WERE OCCUPYING IT
    • SEVENTH, millions of Israelites were born in Egypt but never saw the Land as three full generations, PLUS the fathers, died in Egypt
    • EIGHTH, millions of Israelites were born to the Israelites who were carried off by Assyria. They, through no fault of their own were born OUTSIDE a Land PROMISED to them. These millions you discard in the face of God's OATH!
    God fulfilled his Promise to Abraham to give the Land to his descendants when Israel entered and occupied Canaan - the land flowing with milk and honey. The resurrected OT saints have no use of the land since they neither need to toil nor farm. In the resurrection, faithful Israel (OT & NT) will be the same as the faithful Gentile.

    What is most bizarre is your insistence that "circumcision", not faith in God is the only requirement to partake of the "promise". I can't find support for this in scripture. This is what Paul said concerning Abraham's faith:

    [I]Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

    Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
    Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.[/I

    I implore you to consider the above diligently because your argument inexplicably voids the role of faith in receiving God's promise. If God did not give the Promise to Abraham carte blanche, I see no reason that caveat should not apply to the rest of Israel.

    Comment


    • Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

      Originally posted by Walls View Post
      You have just created an insurmountable problem. FIRST, you have now admitted that the Root and Stem of the Olive Tree is Christ - #176 (to which I rejoice), and SECONDLY by saying they are cut out of Christ you IMPLY that they were were once grafted into Christ. On what BASIS can you say this? Added to this, Romans 11:23 does not say "they must believe and accept Christ". It says that those who were cut out ... IF they turn and believe, they will be grafted in. But two verses later, in verse 25, it says that THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN! Why? Because the "blindness" REMAINS UNTIL GENTILE RULE FROM THIS EARTH IS REMOVED!
      1. I won't use "grafted in" to describe Israel. But the Bible says plainly that Jesus came for Israel. Although, he came for the Gentile too. This is what Paul said in that regard:

      Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

      Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


      There are more, but these should suffice.

      Indeed, Paul said in Rom 11:23 that if they *believe* they will be grafted in. But you said the text didn't say they "must believe in Christ". So I ask, if not in Christ, in *whom* do you reckon they should believe in? I agree that their blindness will be removed when the fulness of the Gentiles has come in, however, those that will be grafted in are still contingent upon belief in Christ. Gentile rule will end when Jesus returns but they MUST decide for Christ or otherwise before that time, see Zech 12:10.

      Originally posted by Walls View Post
      Scriptures. Scriptures? Scriptures! And because you don't follow scripture you again create a contradiction. For Daniel 12:2-3 says of this time;

      2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
      3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."


      Are then the good PUNISHED with "everlasting contempt"? And if the "wise" TURN many, who are they that are turned? But even worse than this is that the prophets say over and over that Israel's sins will be forgiven AND YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT! May I ask .... are your sins forgiven? If your answer is "yes", I ask you - ON WHAT BASIS? If you say Christ's death, then you make His death of none effect because SCRIPTURE says that He died for the sin of the WORLD (Jn.1:29), and for the sins of the WORLD (1st Jn.2:2). What think ye of Isaiah 1:18, or Isaiah 43:25 and 44:22? What about Psalm 51:1 and 9, or Psalm 103:12?? But then you do not take the scriptures litErally, so Jeremiah 33:8 means something else! "And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity, whereby they have sinned against me; and I will pardon all their iniquities, whereby they have sinned, and whereby they have transgressed against me."

      C''mon brother. I have met your objections at every turn. What you have produced in the above posting is getting a bit heavy. Why not take time to reconsider?

      But having said this, let me also say that you and I are NOT Israelites. While we enjoy, and are richly blessed, with God's unfolding narrative of Israel, IT DOES NOT PERTAIN TO YOU AND I. We are the New Creature, the New Man. We have the rebirth, the divine life that comes with it and a wonderful inheritance. Come, let us retire to our corners and contemplate.
      1. My sin is forgiven because I believe in the sacrifice of Christ for me.
      2. And the heathen is condemned because he rejects Jesus Christ' sacrifice for him. That's the difference.
      3. I don't share your carte blanche for saving Israel - because it is unscriptural. The disciples and the Apostles were forgiven of their sins because they believed in Jesus. Nobody, Jew or Gentile will be saved unless they accept Christ.
      4. What you miss is that Dan 12:2-3 refers to those who not only remained steadfast in their faith, but taught and strengthened the weak in faith during the oppression of Antiochus IV. See below:

      Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
      Dan 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.


      Notice that those in v-11 above are the same in Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament, and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

      Dan 11 speaks of their righteous life of devotion to God in the flesh in the face of untold persecution while Dan 12:3 speaks of their reward of eternal life in the resurrection.

      That said, I agree we should take time to reflect on our positions.
      Always a pleasure to discuss with you. Thanks for your time.

      Comment


      • Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
        1. I won't use "grafted in" to describe Israel. But the Bible says plainly that Jesus came for Israel. Although, he came for the Gentile too. This is what Paul said in that regard:

        Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

        Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


        There are more, but these should suffice.

        Indeed, Paul said in Rom 11:23 that if they *believe* they will be grafted in. But you said the text didn't say they "must believe in Christ". So I ask, if not in Christ, in *whom* do you reckon they should believe in? I agree that their blindness will be removed when the fulness of the Gentiles has come in, however, those that will be grafted in are still contingent upon belief in Christ. Gentile rule will end when Jesus returns but they MUST decide for Christ or otherwise before that time, see Zech 12:10.



        1. My sin is forgiven because I believe in the sacrifice of Christ for me.
        2. And the heathen is condemned because he rejects Jesus Christ' sacrifice for him. That's the difference.
        3. I don't share your carte blanche for saving Israel - because it is unscriptural. The disciples and the Apostles were forgiven of their sins because they believed in Jesus. Nobody, Jew or Gentile will be saved unless they accept Christ.
        4. What you miss is that Dan 12:2-3 refers to those who not only remained steadfast in their faith, but taught and strengthened the weak in faith during the oppression of Antiochus IV. See below:

        Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
        Dan 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.


        Notice that those in v-11 above are the same in Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament, and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

        Dan 11 speaks of their righteous life of devotion to God in the flesh in the face of untold persecution while Dan 12:3 speaks of their reward of eternal life in the resurrection.

        That said, I agree we should take time to reflect on our positions.
        Always a pleasure to discuss with you. Thanks for your time.
        Your sin is forgiven because Christ died for you. Because of what Christ the Son of the living God did, God accepts you.

        Methinks, we, as Christians, have it backwards.

        Comment


        • Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          God fulfilled his Promise to Abraham to give the Land to his descendants when Israel entered and occupied Canaan - the land flowing with milk and honey. The resurrected OT saints have no use of the land since they neither need to toil nor farm. In the resurrection, faithful Israel (OT & NT) will be the same as the faithful Gentile.
          No!
          • The Blood Covenant that God made with Abraham was not only for his descendants. It was with Abraham HIMSELF (Gen.13:15).
          • The Blood Covenant for Canaan was that it would be an "EVERLASTING POSSESSION" (Gen.17:8)
          • The Blood Covenant for Canaan is not primarily to farm. It was that there would be a choice piece of earth with God's NAME and PRESENCE there. It was the beginning of the recovery of Genesis 1:26-28 in which God would have a people with His Law subduing and ruling the Land.
          • The Blood Covenant of Promise was that Abraham's seed would "possess the gates of their enemies. This results in the Promise being extended to the whole earth (Rom.4:13)

          What is most bizarre is your insistence that "circumcision", not faith in God is the only requirement to partake of the "promise". I can't find support for this in scripture. This is what Paul said concerning Abraham's faith:

          [I]Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
          Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

          Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
          Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.[/I

          I implore you to consider the above diligently because your argument inexplicably voids the role of faith in receiving God's promise. If God did not give the Promise to Abraham carte blanche, I see no reason that caveat should not apply to the rest of Israel.
          Your thread was on a future gathering of Israel to their Land. Whatever your motive is (I may not judge), but you speak of God's "PROMISE". Why not be up front and stick to the issue? God made a COVENANT OF PROMISE FOR THE POSSESSION OF CANAAN. Abraham and his seed had but ONE condition - CIRCUMCISION (Gen.17:10-14). In this Covenant God undertakes, with an OATH, to bring Abraham and ALL his seed into that Land to possess it forever. The "FAITH" that Abraham exercised is that he believed God could do this because BEFORE the Covenant was made in Genesis Chapter 17, God had told Abraham that (i) he would die and not gain the Land, and (ii) his seed from Sarah would be captives AND DIE in a foreign Land for FOUR generations. This statement by God left only TWO OPTIONS:-
          1. God is a Liar (perish the thought). If Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the next four generations would die without gaining the Land of Canaan, God had made a vain Covenant and a vain Promise, UNLESS .....
          2. God was able to raise the dead and THEN give them the Land. This would be an awesome display of God's power, AND He would fulfill a portion of the promise that said "everlasting possession" BECAUSE after being resurrected a MAN DOES NOT DIE!

          Abraham's choice was to BELIEVE God even though he saw no way for God to fulfill His Promise seeing as Abraham had a BARREN WIFE. The FAITH that Abraham exercises was that:-
          • God could bring forth a son from a barren woman
          • God could remove the present owners of Canaan
          • God could raise the dead
          • God would raise him from the dead to give him the Land
          • God could gather the dead of four generations FROM FOREIGN SOIL

          The verses you bring above have little to do with GAINING THE LAND. They have to do with FAITH BEING BEFORE ANY WORKS (circumcision being the first work).

          In my life I have met and fellowshipped with many Christians. MOST of them talk like you. Do you know why? Because ingrained into their psyche is 1,500 years of Roman Catholic doctrine. Roman Catholic doctrine says that if your works were good you will go to heaven when you die. Then came the Reformation and the only thing in this doctrine that changed was that works were replaced by FAITH. So the prevailing doctrine among fundamental Christians is that if a man BELIEVES in Jesus he will go to heaven, and if a man does not BELIEVE in Jesus he will go to hell. And once this doctrine has gripped a person, ALL THE REST OF THE BIBLE IS MOOT FOR THEM.
          • What do we need resurrection for if we go to heaven?
          • What do we need the earth for if we go to heaven?
          • What do we need new bodies for if we go to heaven?
          • What do we need the Church for if we go to heaven?
          • AND WHAT DO WE NEED CANAAN FOR IF ALL ISRAEL IS IN UNBELIEF AND GOING TO HELL?

          Our Lord Jesus predicted in Matthew 13 that a "Woman" would sow LEAVEN in the doctrine of the Kingdom. This Woman is seen in all her glory in the closing Chapters of Revelation - the Roman Church with its Babylonian doctrines of a "celestial Lodge". And you, my friend, are another victim of this doctrine, just as I was for the first 32 years of my life. Your Bible is less than one Chapter long. Your Bible is simple. Have FAITH and you will receive the Promise! What the Promise is to you is blurred - but you will settle for our Lord Jesus. A COVENANT OF PROMISE for a piece of the EARTH offends your one Chapter Bible. "What! - Israel do not need to farm in the resurrection!" And so the prophets MUST BE IGNORED! In your theology, for example, there is no room for Amos 9:8-15. Why farm in restored Israel???

          8 "Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
          9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
          10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
          11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
          12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
          13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
          14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
          15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God."


          verse 8. God will almost destroy Israel but not fully
          verse 9. God will chastise them among the nations
          verse 10. Israelites will pay for their sins by death
          verse 11. THEN comes a day in which David's House is raised up again. David House is OVER COMBINED ISRAEL
          verse 12. David's House will not only rule Israel but Edom and "ALL THE HEATHEN". Jesus of David's House is not only King of the Jews but "King of kings"
          verse 13. Then, because of righteous rule the curse of the earth is lifted the HARVESTS will be great
          verse 14. And who will lead the agriculture on earth? Why - ISRAEL! Israel FROM THEIR CAPTIVITY!
          verse 15. Israel are gathered and NEVER REMOVED AGAIN

          When will all this agriculture happen? WHEN (1) DAVID'S HOUSE IS RAISED UP, AND (2) ALL ISRAEL IS GATHERED FROM THEIR DISPERSION AMONG THE NATIONS. And when is David's House raised up? WHEN THE CHURCH AGE IS COMPLETE (Act.15:14-16)! Where is heaven in all this? Nowhere to be found! The Bible, with it's ca. 1,200 Chapters IS ABOUT THE EARTH! Man is made by God FOR THE EARTH! God's Covenant of PROMISE is for the EARTH - the sand and rocks of Canaan.

          Don't talk of God's Promise. Talk of God's Blood Covenant for the Land of Canaan. Don't talk of FAITH in this context for an EIGHT-DAY-OLD baby has no faith when he is circumcised. FAITH is what is required of YOU to believe what God has said in the REST OF THE BIBLE!

          Comment


          • Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

            Originally posted by percho View Post
            Your sin is forgiven because Christ died for you. Because of what Christ the Son of the living God did, God accepts you.

            Methinks, we, as Christians, have it backwards.
            So you don't need to accept Christ, your sin is automatically forgiven because he died for you? Is this what you're telling me?

            Comment


            • Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

              Originally posted by Walls View Post
              No!
              • The Blood Covenant that God made with Abraham was not only for his descendants. It was with Abraham HIMSELF (Gen.13:15).
              • The Blood Covenant for Canaan was that it would be an "EVERLASTING POSSESSION" (Gen.17:8)
              • The Blood Covenant for Canaan is not primarily to farm. It was that there would be a choice piece of earth with God's NAME and PRESENCE there. It was the beginning of the recovery of Genesis 1:26-28 in which God would have a people with His Law subduing and ruling the Land.
              • The Blood Covenant of Promise was that Abraham's seed would "possess the gates of their enemies. This results in the Promise being extended to the whole earth (Rom.4:13)
              You have a tendency for the superfluous. There is nothing in your rebuttal that negates my position that God has already fulfilled his promise of land to Abraham's descendants, ie Canaan. Your objections 1-4.

              a. The covenant was with Abraham and his descendants. I didn't deny this.
              b. It is an everlasting covenant. I didn't deny this too, so what's your point?
              c. I apologise that you didn't pick up on my attempt at humour with reference to farming.
              d. Ancient Israel did possess the gate of their enemies. And true to God's promise, they returned to inhabit their ancestral land after 1,970 years of exile. It's ironic that you quoted Rom 4:13 that confirms that the Promise was through the righteousness of faith. The same virtue you denied as irrelevant to the inheritance?

              Originally posted by Walls View Post
              Your thread was on a future gathering of Israel to their Land. Whatever your motive is (I may not judge), but you speak of God's "PROMISE". Why not be up front and stick to the issue? God made a COVENANT OF PROMISE FOR THE POSSESSION OF CANAAN. Abraham and his seed had but ONE condition - CIRCUMCISION (Gen.17:10-14). In this Covenant God undertakes, with an OATH, to bring Abraham and ALL his seed into that Land to possess it forever. The "FAITH" that Abraham exercised is that he believed God could do this because BEFORE the Covenant was made in Genesis Chapter 17, God had told Abraham that (i) he would die and not gain the Land, and (ii) his seed from Sarah would be captives AND DIE in a foreign Land for FOUR generations. This statement by God left only TWO OPTIONS:-
              1. God is a Liar (perish the thought). If Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the next four generations would die without gaining the Land of Canaan, God had made a vain Covenant and a vain Promise, UNLESS .....
              2. God was able to raise the dead and THEN give them the Land. This would be an awesome display of God's power, AND He would fulfill a portion of the promise that said "everlasting possession" BECAUSE after being resurrected a MAN DOES NOT DIE!

              Abraham's choice was to BELIEVE God even though he saw no way for God to fulfill His Promise seeing as Abraham had a BARREN WIFE. The FAITH that Abraham exercises was that:-
              • God could bring forth a son from a barren woman
              • God could remove the present owners of Canaan
              • God could raise the dead
              • God would raise him from the dead to give him the Land
              • God could gather the dead of four generations FROM FOREIGN SOIL

              The verses you bring above have little to do with GAINING THE LAND. They have to do with FAITH BEING BEFORE ANY WORKS (circumcision being the first work).

              In my life I have met and fellowshipped with many Christians. MOST of them talk like you. Do you know why? Because ingrained into their psyche is 1,500 years of Roman Catholic doctrine. Roman Catholic doctrine says that if your works were good you will go to heaven when you die. Then came the Reformation and the only thing in this doctrine that changed was that works were replaced by FAITH. So the prevailing doctrine among fundamental Christians is that if a man BELIEVES in Jesus he will go to heaven, and if a man does not BELIEVE in Jesus he will go to hell. And once this doctrine has gripped a person, ALL THE REST OF THE BIBLE IS MOOT FOR THEM.
              • What do we need resurrection for if we go to heaven?
              • What do we need the earth for if we go to heaven?
              • What do we need new bodies for if we go to heaven?
              • What do we need the Church for if we go to heaven?
              • AND WHAT DO WE NEED CANAAN FOR IF ALL ISRAEL IS IN UNBELIEF AND GOING TO HELL?

              Our Lord Jesus predicted in Matthew 13 that a "Woman" would sow LEAVEN in the doctrine of the Kingdom. This Woman is seen in all her glory in the closing Chapters of Revelation - the Roman Church with its Babylonian doctrines of a "celestial Lodge". And you, my friend, are another victim of this doctrine, just as I was for the first 32 years of my life. Your Bible is less than one Chapter long. Your Bible is simple. Have FAITH and you will receive the Promise! What the Promise is to you is blurred - but you will settle for our Lord Jesus. A COVENANT OF PROMISE for a piece of the EARTH offends your one Chapter Bible. "What! - Israel do not need to farm in the resurrection!" And so the prophets MUST BE IGNORED! In your theology, for example, there is no room for Amos 9:8-15. Why farm in restored Israel???

              8 "Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
              9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
              10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
              11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
              12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
              13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
              14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
              15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God."


              verse 8. God will almost destroy Israel but not fully
              verse 9. God will chastise them among the nations
              verse 10. Israelites will pay for their sins by death
              verse 11. THEN comes a day in which David's House is raised up again. David House is OVER COMBINED ISRAEL
              verse 12. David's House will not only rule Israel but Edom and "ALL THE HEATHEN". Jesus of David's House is not only King of the Jews but "King of kings"
              verse 13. Then, because of righteous rule the curse of the earth is lifted the HARVESTS will be great
              verse 14. And who will lead the agriculture on earth? Why - ISRAEL! Israel FROM THEIR CAPTIVITY!
              verse 15. Israel are gathered and NEVER REMOVED AGAIN

              When will all this agriculture happen? WHEN (1) DAVID'S HOUSE IS RAISED UP, AND (2) ALL ISRAEL IS GATHERED FROM THEIR DISPERSION AMONG THE NATIONS. And when is David's House raised up? WHEN THE CHURCH AGE IS COMPLETE (Act.15:14-16)! Where is heaven in all this? Nowhere to be found! The Bible, with it's ca. 1,200 Chapters IS ABOUT THE EARTH! Man is made by God FOR THE EARTH! God's Covenant of PROMISE is for the EARTH - the sand and rocks of Canaan.

              Don't talk of God's Promise. Talk of God's Blood Covenant for the Land of Canaan. Don't talk of FAITH in this context for an EIGHT-DAY-OLD baby has no faith when he is circumcised. FAITH is what is required of YOU to believe what God has said in the REST OF THE BIBLE!
              1. I have maintained from the start that the gathering of Israel has been fulfilled as well as the land promise too. On the contrary, you said it is in the future which the scriptures don't support.
              2. God has already fulfilled the land promise by giving Canaan to Abraham's descendants.
              3. The Patriarchs that didn't see Canaan will be resurrected to dwell there when Jesus returns.
              4. The resurrected OT saint, now immortal has no use to farm the land to survive. Nevertheless, the Jews who enter the MK as mortals will live and farm the land.
              5. You are obviously confused about the meaning of "David's House" being raised up! This is about uniting ALL Israel as ONE (the way they were under David) and God has already done it!
              6. Israel has been gathered from their dispersal among the nations. The diaspora is an exile and need not be gathered.

              Comment


              • Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                You have a tendency for the superfluous. There is nothing in your rebuttal that negates my position that God has already fulfilled his promise of land to Abraham's descendants, ie Canaan. Your objections 1-4.

                a. The covenant was with Abraham and his descendants. I didn't deny this.
                b. It is an everlasting covenant. I didn't deny this too, so what's your point?
                c. I apologise that you didn't pick up on my attempt at humour with reference to farming.
                d. Ancient Israel did possess the gate of their enemies. And true to God's promise, they returned to inhabit their ancestral land after 1,970 years of exile. It's ironic that you quoted Rom 4:13 that confirms that the Promise was through the righteousness of faith. The same virtue you denied as irrelevant to the inheritance?



                1. I have maintained from the start that the gathering of Israel has been fulfilled as well as the land promise too. On the contrary, you said it is in the future which the scriptures don't support.
                2. God has already fulfilled the land promise by giving Canaan to Abraham's descendants.
                3. The Patriarchs that didn't see Canaan will be resurrected to dwell there when Jesus returns.
                4. The resurrected OT saint, now immortal has no use to farm the land to survive. Nevertheless, the Jews who enter the MK as mortals will live and farm the land.
                5. You are obviously confused about the meaning of "David's House" being raised up! This is about uniting ALL Israel as ONE (the way they were under David) and God has already done it!
                6. Israel has been gathered from their dispersal among the nations. The diaspora is an exile and need not be gathered.
                OK. Thanks for your reply. I have read it and noted it. Go well and God bless.

                Comment


                • Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  So you don't need to accept Christ, your sin is automatically forgiven because he died for you? Is this what you're telling me?
                  If I may give my input. Among others, there are two grand problems facing mankind.
                  1. Adam ate of a Tree that dealt out death. It changed Adam's nature, and every man and woman after him and Eve, partakes of this corrupted nature. Romans 5:12; "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned". The Bible, as you can see in this verse, and in many others in Romans, uses the word "SIN" (singular) for this corrupted nature. As the "wages of SIN (singular) is death", every man will die and stay dead unless God does something about it.
                  2. Because of Adam, and every man's fallen and corrupted nature, he is a "SIN-MACHINE". The issue, the fruit of man's sin-nature is "SINS" (plural) or "TRESPASSES". It is this FRUIT, these SINS (plural) that gets a man condemned and headed for the Lake of Fire. And according to Romans Chapter 7 there is absolutely nothing a man can do about it. Sin is both personified and stated to be a Law dwelling in every man, even the most zealous for God's Words. Every man born to Adam is headed for Gehenna - the trash-heap of the universe where unquenchable fire and immortal worms torment day and night forever. God is righteous and therefore DUTY-BOUND to send all men born from Adam to the Lake of Fire. Man in Adam is a poisonous tree and produces poisonous fruit (Matt.3:10, 7:17).

                  To cover these two problems under Law, God gave two different Offerings - (i) the SIN Offering, and (ii) the TRESPASS Offering. When Christ came, He fulfilled ALL the Offerings including these TWO.
                  1. Christ is the fulfillment of the SIN-Offering FOR ALL MEN (Jn.1:29). This does NOT depend on FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST. The reason for our Lord Jesus fulfilling the SIN Offering for all me is to give God the judicial permission to raise all men from the dead. Jesus Christ fulfills the SIN Offering to allow all men, who through no fault of their own, partake of Adam's nature. But Gd needed a LEGAL basis to do this. It is not God's fault that Adam failed, and because of God's Law in Genesis 1:11-12 that everything would produce according to itself, which was made BEFORE sin came in, it is not God's fault that all men are headed for death and will STAY THAT WAY. So, through absolute mercy, and a terrible price, God allows our Lord Jesus to fulfill the SIN Offering so that He may conquer death JUDICIALLY and LEGALLY.
                  2. Christ is the fulfillment of the TRESPASS Offering FOR ALL MEN (1st Jn.2:2). That does not mean that God will forgive all men. It just means that the JUDICIAL GROUND was laid for God to forgive any man He wants to. Who God is going to forgive and who He is not going to forgive is known only by Him. The bar, or point where He will not forgive a man seems to lie in Isaiah 66:24; "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." The Lake of Fire seems to be for those men who actively and consciously WENT AGAINST GOD. That means that babies, toddlers, young children, the mentally handicapped and those driven to sin by serious circumstances MIGHT escape. BUT ONE THING IS SURE. GOD HAS STATED OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN THE PROPHETS THAT HE WOULD FORGIVE ISRAEL THEIR FOLLY.

                  Do Israel deserve the Lake of Fire? YES! Why then bother to forgive them? THIS IS THE BURNING QUESTION THAT MUST BE ANSWERED IN THIS THREAD!!! The answer is NOT because Israel will repent. The answer is NOT because Israel are a fine bunch. The answer is NOT because Israel ever BELIEVE in Christ! THE ANSWER IS THAT GOD MADE A PROMISE TO ABRAHAM WITH AN OATH AND A BLOOD COVENANT! The terrible price that was paid on Golgotha is because God KEEPS HIS PROMISES FIRST, and because God LOVES Israel second.

                  All attempts by Bible students to find why Israel will be resurrected, gathered and restored to their Land in favor with Jehovah, WILL NOT BE SATISFIED BY TWISTING SCRIPTURE TO SAY THAT THEY HAVE FAITH IN CHRIST AT SOME TIME OR ANOTHER! Hebrews 11:1 defines BIBLICAL faith, and Biblical faith does not exist when one SEES the object. The minute Jesus Christ bursts forth from the clouds over Mount Olives, and is SEEN by Israel, FAITH HAS NO GROUND ANYMORE. The Object is NOT UNSEEN anymore! SIGHT KILLS BIBLICAL FAITH!

                  Israel will NOT enjoy rebirth. Israel will not enjoy divine Life. Israel will not be in the image and likeness of Christ. Israel will NOT rule the earth. Israel will have "terrestrial" glory in resurrection. BUT ISRAEL WILL BE RESTORED TO THE LEADING NATION ON EARTH WITH THE PRIVILEGE OF SERVING EMMANUEL IN HIS TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM! The Nations, who are ruled by the Church Overcomers, will flow to Jerusalem annually to pay homage to Jesus Christ, and the Temple that Emmanuel lives in will be a universal House of Prayer and Wisdom. Of this glorious time Isaiah 56:7 speaks; "Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for ALL people." And again Isaiah 2:2 speaks of this time; "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it." And Zechariah 14:16 lays forth God decree concerning Jesus AFTER Armageddon; "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of ALL the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."

                  Comment


                  • Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

                    Originally posted by Walls View Post
                    If I may give my input. Among others, there are two grand problems facing mankind.
                    1. Adam ate of a Tree that dealt out death. It changed Adam's nature, and every man and woman after him and Eve, partakes of this corrupted nature. Romans 5:12; "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned". The Bible, as you can see in this verse, and in many others in Romans, uses the word "SIN" (singular) for this corrupted nature. As the "wages of SIN (singular) is death", every man will die and stay dead unless God does something about it.
                    2. Because of Adam, and every man's fallen and corrupted nature, he is a "SIN-MACHINE". The issue, the fruit of man's sin-nature is "SINS" (plural) or "TRESPASSES". It is this FRUIT, these SINS (plural) that gets a man condemned and headed for the Lake of Fire. And according to Romans Chapter 7 there is absolutely nothing a man can do about it. Sin is both personified and stated to be a Law dwelling in every man, even the most zealous for God's Words. Every man born to Adam is headed for Gehenna - the trash-heap of the universe where unquenchable fire and immortal worms torment day and night forever. God is righteous and therefore DUTY-BOUND to send all men born from Adam to the Lake of Fire. Man in Adam is a poisonous tree and produces poisonous fruit (Matt.3:10, 7:17).

                    To cover these two problems under Law, God gave two different Offerings - (i) the SIN Offering, and (ii) the TRESPASS Offering. When Christ came, He fulfilled ALL the Offerings including these TWO.
                    1. Christ is the fulfillment of the SIN-Offering FOR ALL MEN (Jn.1:29). This does NOT depend on FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST. The reason for our Lord Jesus fulfilling the SIN Offering for all me is to give God the judicial permission to raise all men from the dead. Jesus Christ fulfills the SIN Offering to allow all men, who through no fault of their own, partake of Adam's nature. But Gd needed a LEGAL basis to do this. It is not God's fault that Adam failed, and because of God's Law in Genesis 1:11-12 that everything would produce according to itself, which was made BEFORE sin came in, it is not God's fault that all men are headed for death and will STAY THAT WAY. So, through absolute mercy, and a terrible price, God allows our Lord Jesus to fulfill the SIN Offering so that He may conquer death JUDICIALLY and LEGALLY.
                    2. Christ is the fulfillment of the TRESPASS Offering FOR ALL MEN (1st Jn.2:2). That does not mean that God will forgive all men. It just means that the JUDICIAL GROUND was laid for God to forgive any man He wants to. Who God is going to forgive and who He is not going to forgive is known only by Him. The bar, or point where He will not forgive a man seems to lie in Isaiah 66:24; "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." The Lake of Fire seems to be for those men who actively and consciously WENT AGAINST GOD. That means that babies, toddlers, young children, the mentally handicapped and those driven to sin by serious circumstances MIGHT escape. BUT ONE THING IS SURE. GOD HAS STATED OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN THE PROPHETS THAT HE WOULD FORGIVE ISRAEL THEIR FOLLY.

                    Do Israel deserve the Lake of Fire? YES! Why then bother to forgive them? THIS IS THE BURNING QUESTION THAT MUST BE ANSWERED IN THIS THREAD!!! The answer is NOT because Israel will repent. The answer is NOT because Israel are a fine bunch. The answer is NOT because Israel ever BELIEVE in Christ! THE ANSWER IS THAT GOD MADE A PROMISE TO ABRAHAM WITH AN OATH AND A BLOOD COVENANT! The terrible price that was paid on Golgotha is because God KEEPS HIS PROMISES FIRST, and because God LOVES Israel second.

                    All attempts by Bible students to find why Israel will be resurrected, gathered and restored to their Land in favor with Jehovah, WILL NOT BE SATISFIED BY TWISTING SCRIPTURE TO SAY THAT THEY HAVE FAITH IN CHRIST AT SOME TIME OR ANOTHER! Hebrews 11:1 defines BIBLICAL faith, and Biblical faith does not exist when one SEES the object. The minute Jesus Christ bursts forth from the clouds over Mount Olives, and is SEEN by Israel, FAITH HAS NO GROUND ANYMORE. The Object is NOT UNSEEN anymore! SIGHT KILLS BIBLICAL FAITH!

                    Israel will NOT enjoy rebirth. Israel will not enjoy divine Life. Israel will not be in the image and likeness of Christ. Israel will NOT rule the earth. Israel will have "terrestrial" glory in resurrection. BUT ISRAEL WILL BE RESTORED TO THE LEADING NATION ON EARTH WITH THE PRIVILEGE OF SERVING EMMANUEL IN HIS TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM! The Nations, who are ruled by the Church Overcomers, will flow to Jerusalem annually to pay homage to Jesus Christ, and the Temple that Emmanuel lives in will be a universal House of Prayer and Wisdom. Of this glorious time Isaiah 56:7 speaks; "Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for ALL people." And again Isaiah 2:2 speaks of this time; "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it." And Zechariah 14:16 lays forth God decree concerning Jesus AFTER Armageddon; "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of ALL the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."
                    If every one of Israel will be forgiven and allowed to live in the New Jerusalem, who then are those Jesus said will be cast into outer darkness (Matt 8:12) - Gentiles? Secondly, if every one of Israel blood will be saved, what's the point of listing some of the known devout OT saints in Hebrew 11?

                    Comment


                    • Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

                      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                      If every one of Israel will be forgiven and allowed to live in the New Jerusalem, who then are those Jesus said will be cast into outer darkness (Matt 8:12) - Gentiles? Secondly, if every one of Israel blood will be saved, what's the point of listing some of the known devout OT saints in Hebrew 11?
                      Who addressed New Jerusalem? I addressed, as Zechariah 14:16 did, Jerusalem of today! The prophets, including the Lord Himself, point to the Jerusalem that now exists. It is the Jerusalem of the Messianic age - the Millennial Kingdom of Christ on earth as Daniel predicted starting from Armageddon.

                      The Book of Hebrews was written because of a massive problem among once Hebrews who had turned to Christ, but were in danger of going back to Moses. The reason for this return to Moses is simple. Under Moses a obedient Israelite was rewarded immediately and in this life. If he kept the Law he could expect the blessings of the Law - long and healthy life, a good wife, many children, many cattle, great harvests and protection from his enemies. But the Christian has no such promises. He is told that he lives among the enemy. He will be hated for Jesus' Name's sake, and that this hate would boil over into persecution ending in martyrdom. The Christian was to suffer trial patiently for anon, when the New King came back from heaven, he would receive GREAT REWARD then. This takes FAITH.

                      The verses leading up to Chapter 11 are Hebrews 10:32-39, which read;

                      32 "But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
                      33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
                      34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
                      35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
                      36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
                      37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
                      38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
                      39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

                      Much is contained in these verses but basically the Hebrew converted and immediately suffered hate, persecution and the "spoiling of his earthly goods". The tendency was; "Hey - under Mose we would be protected, our enemies thrashed and our worldly goods would be safe. Let us "DRAW BACK" to Moses. The author of Hebrews says, NO! You need patience and patience exercises FAITH. But this FAITH is not that faith that is needed for rebirth. This is FAITH to walk daily AFTER REBIRTH. It is not faith to the enlivening of your spirit (Jn.3:6). It is FAITH in God's Words that in due time you will be exceedingly rewarded. And the REWARD is that by walking in daily faith, you will gain the salvation of your SOUL. Of this, Peter speaks much, but any exegesis would make my answer long and distracting.

                      Suffice to say that id you examine the Old Testament saints in Hebrews 11 you will see just that. Not faith in Jesus Christ, but FAITH that their patience for the heavenly reward was guaranteed because God SAID IT WAS.
                      • Abel BELIEVED God for what ever the Offering stood for. WE do not know which one it was, but until the Law, the only offering known was the Burnt Offering . The Burnt Offering is not for men's sin or sins. It is to show that we are not fully for God and that only Christ was a Man fully for God. Abel brought an offering but without faith in the deadly situation of fallen man
                      • Enoch was translated because WALK was "with God". He already believed in God, but this FAITH produced a daily walk. Verse 6 says he was REWARDED - not born again
                      • Noah believed God, NOT for eternal life, BUT that it would rain so much that all men would die within 120 years.
                      • Abraham believed God that God was able to give him and his seed Canaan even though they would die. THREE times he is tested on this - and passed the test

                      And then we come to verse 13. These all died not having received the Promises. Abel, son of Adam, was expecting the "seed of the woman" who would crush the serpent and give man back his position as ruler of the earth. He never saw Him, but believed He would eventually come. Enoch is take heaven, but God promised the EARTH. Enoch, sojourner in heaven, has still to inherit the earth. Noah saw the pristine earth after the flood, but then saw the curse land on his son and grandson, and knew he must die ere Shem's offspring will rule. Abraham is told that he and his seed will get the Land of Canaan. Minutes later God tells him that he and his offspring up to seven generations will not get the Land. Abraham did not regard God as a liar, and was happy to PURCHASE his grave in Machpelah so that his bones would be a testimony of occupation TILL RESURRECTION. He refused to join himself to the Canaanites and gave back the spoils of the slaughter of kings. He sais that GOD would eventually give him ALL the Land and its wealth.

                      And what were their aspirations? Did they for one moment think that God had given up on His ideas, councils and plans for the EARTH? BY NO MEANS! They went to their graves KNOWING (by faith) that when the rose from the dead they would receive the EARTH (Rom.4:13) - BUT NOT IN ITS PRESENT STATE OF ORDER. It would no more be a chaos. It would no more be under curse. It would no more have war and unlimited death. It would have no deserts (except Edom). It would be a place where the SEED (Jesus) of Abraham would rule with a rod of iron and "righteousness, peace and joy" would mark the Kingdom ON EARTH. That is, IT WOULD HAVE HEAVENLY RULE (verse 16). "Thy Kingdom COME (to earth), thy will be dome ON EARTH as it is in HEAVEN", is our Lord's prayer! And aonon it is answered. The WAITING takes FAITH!

                      The author of Hebrews is saying, "Hey you men of the heavenly calling (Heb.3:11), don't you know that while Israel under the Law will inherit their Land, their Kingdom is a kingdom of the flesh. Circumcision is the sign" of it. But those who are born again and who have their whole flesh cut off in the death waters of Baptism will SEE AND ENTER a heavenly Kingdom (Jn.3:3-5). Don't you know ye ex-Hebrews that Israel will have joy in their Land but it is limited. Why? Because their SOULS are limited by earthly things. But you believers of the "heavenly calling", who have the "birth from above" will have the opportunity to save YOUR SOULS (1 Peter 1:9). And what is "saving your souls" mean? Matthew 16:26-28 answers;

                      26 "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
                      27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
                      28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."


                      The salvation of the SOUL is to be admitted to Christ's Millennial Kingdom! This is taken from Israel (Matt.21:43). It is given to those who took the blows for Christ's sake. WHEN? When Jesus comes in glory WITH HIS REWARD. THE FAITH SPOKEN OF IN HEBREWS 11 IS THE FAITH FOR A DAILY WALK PLEASING TO GOD - NOT FOR REBIRTH, ETERNAL LIFE AND AVOIDING THE LAKE OF FIRE.

                      Comment


                      • Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

                        Originally posted by Follower1977

                        “And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
                        **Mark‬ *13:27‬ *KJV‬‬
                        That's referring to the rapture isnt it - God's elect?
                        "Your name and renown
                        is the desire of our hearts."
                        (Isaiah 26:8)

                        Comment


                        • Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

                          Originally posted by Cyberseeker View Post
                          That's referring to the rapture isnt it - God's elect?
                          Sure - the *elect* are all God's faithful (Jew/Gentile). Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

                          Unfortunately, many have jumped into the bandwagon that claims the "elect" are exclusively Israel. However, in Paul's letter to the Colossians who were Gentiles, he calls them the elect. Although some translations use "chosen ones" which is no different from 'elect'.

                          Comment


                          • Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

                            Originally posted by Walls View Post
                            Who addressed New Jerusalem? I addressed, as Zechariah 14:16 did, Jerusalem of today! The prophets, including the Lord Himself, point to the Jerusalem that now exists. It is the Jerusalem of the Messianic age - the Millennial Kingdom of Christ on earth as Daniel predicted starting from Armageddon.
                            Please clarify the above so I don't quote you out of context. On one hand, you said that Zech 14:16 refers to the Jerusalem of today. According to you the prophets and Jesus points to the Jerusalem that exists now. On the other hand, you say it is Jerusalem of the Messianic age - the MK when Jesus has returned.

                            Since Zech 14:16 can't both, please clarify which you believe it is to enable me to respond appropriately.

                            Comment


                            • Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              The analogy is simple and plain; just as a broken off branch invariably withers and dies, so is the person(s) that is not attached to Jesus.
                              The tree doesn't represent Jesus.

                              The tree had natural branches which are Jews. Some branches believed in Jesus but some did not. The unbelievers were still originally from that tree so the tree can't be Jesus because unbelieving Jews were never attached to Jesus but they were born into/attached to Israel. Having faith in Jesus allows them to remain on the tree, and lack of faith gets them removed. So, the tree is Israel, not the country called Israel, not even the genetic relation to past Israelites through bloodlines but Israel as in whom God chooses to be his. To be of THAT Israel depends on whether or not a person is a Christian/follower and believer in Christ.
                              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                              Comment


                              • Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

                                Originally posted by Walls View Post
                                The Book of Hebrews was written because of a massive problem among once Hebrews who had turned to Christ, but were in danger of going back to Moses. The reason for this return to Moses is simple. Under Moses a obedient Israelite was rewarded immediately and in this life. If he kept the Law he could expect the blessings of the Law - long and healthy life, a good wife, many children, many cattle, great harvests and protection from his enemies. But the Christian has no such promises. He is told that he lives among the enemy. He will be hated for Jesus' Name's sake, and that this hate would boil over into persecution ending in martyrdom. The Christian was to suffer trial patiently for anon, when the New King came back from heaven, he would receive GREAT REWARD then. This takes FAITH.

                                The verses leading up to Chapter 11 are Hebrews 10:32-39, which read;

                                32 "But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
                                33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
                                34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
                                35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
                                36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
                                37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
                                38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
                                39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

                                Much is contained in these verses but basically the Hebrew converted and immediately suffered hate, persecution and the "spoiling of his earthly goods". The tendency was; "Hey - under Mose we would be protected, our enemies thrashed and our worldly goods would be safe. Let us "DRAW BACK" to Moses. The author of Hebrews says, NO! You need patience and patience exercises FAITH. But this FAITH is not that faith that is needed for rebirth. This is FAITH to walk daily AFTER REBIRTH. It is not faith to the enlivening of your spirit (Jn.3:6). It is FAITH in God's Words that in due time you will be exceedingly rewarded. And the REWARD is that by walking in daily faith, you will gain the salvation of your SOUL. Of this, Peter speaks much, but any exegesis would make my answer long and distracting.

                                Suffice to say that id you examine the Old Testament saints in Hebrews 11 you will see just that. Not faith in Jesus Christ, but FAITH that their patience for the heavenly reward was guaranteed because God SAID IT WAS.
                                • Abel BELIEVED God for what ever the Offering stood for. WE do not know which one it was, but until the Law, the only offering known was the Burnt Offering . The Burnt Offering is not for men's sin or sins. It is to show that we are not fully for God and that only Christ was a Man fully for God. Abel brought an offering but without faith in the deadly situation of fallen man
                                • Enoch was translated because WALK was "with God". He already believed in God, but this FAITH produced a daily walk. Verse 6 says he was REWARDED - not born again
                                • Noah believed God, NOT for eternal life, BUT that it would rain so much that all men would die within 120 years.
                                • Abraham believed God that God was able to give him and his seed Canaan even though they would die. THREE times he is tested on this - and passed the test

                                And then we come to verse 13. These all died not having received the Promises. Abel, son of Adam, was expecting the "seed of the woman" who would crush the serpent and give man back his position as ruler of the earth. He never saw Him, but believed He would eventually come. Enoch is take heaven, but God promised the EARTH. Enoch, sojourner in heaven, has still to inherit the earth. Noah saw the pristine earth after the flood, but then saw the curse land on his son and grandson, and knew he must die ere Shem's offspring will rule. Abraham is told that he and his seed will get the Land of Canaan. Minutes later God tells him that he and his offspring up to seven generations will not get the Land. Abraham did not regard God as a liar, and was happy to PURCHASE his grave in Machpelah so that his bones would be a testimony of occupation TILL RESURRECTION. He refused to join himself to the Canaanites and gave back the spoils of the slaughter of kings. He sais that GOD would eventually give him ALL the Land and its wealth.

                                And what were their aspirations? Did they for one moment think that God had given up on His ideas, councils and plans for the EARTH? BY NO MEANS! They went to their graves KNOWING (by faith) that when the rose from the dead they would receive the EARTH (Rom.4:13) - BUT NOT IN ITS PRESENT STATE OF ORDER. It would no more be a chaos. It would no more be under curse. It would no more have war and unlimited death. It would have no deserts (except Edom). It would be a place where the SEED (Jesus) of Abraham would rule with a rod of iron and "righteousness, peace and joy" would mark the Kingdom ON EARTH. That is, IT WOULD HAVE HEAVENLY RULE (verse 16). "Thy Kingdom COME (to earth), thy will be dome ON EARTH as it is in HEAVEN", is our Lord's prayer! And aonon it is answered. The WAITING takes FAITH!

                                The author of Hebrews is saying, "Hey you men of the heavenly calling (Heb.3:11), don't you know that while Israel under the Law will inherit their Land, their Kingdom is a kingdom of the flesh. Circumcision is the sign" of it. But those who are born again and who have their whole flesh cut off in the death waters of Baptism will SEE AND ENTER a heavenly Kingdom (Jn.3:3-5). Don't you know ye ex-Hebrews that Israel will have joy in their Land but it is limited. Why? Because their SOULS are limited by earthly things. But you believers of the "heavenly calling", who have the "birth from above" will have the opportunity to save YOUR SOULS (1 Peter 1:9). And what is "saving your souls" mean? Matthew 16:26-28 answers;

                                26 "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
                                27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
                                28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."


                                The salvation of the SOUL is to be admitted to Christ's Millennial Kingdom! This is taken from Israel (Matt.21:43). It is given to those who took the blows for Christ's sake. WHEN? When Jesus comes in glory WITH HIS REWARD. THE FAITH SPOKEN OF IN HEBREWS 11 IS THE FAITH FOR A DAILY WALK PLEASING TO GOD - NOT FOR REBIRTH, ETERNAL LIFE AND AVOIDING THE LAKE OF FIRE.
                                Looks like we are arguing at cross-purposes because the above has nothing to do with the question I reference Heb 11. You have consistently argued that ALL Israel will be saved; the dead including the wicked, resurrected to *inherit* the Land. In my rebuttal, I argued that only Israel's faithful throughout the ages (from the OT to the NT saints) will be eligible to inherit the land. This led me to reference Heb 11 with its focus on devout OT Hebrews.

                                Unfortunately, your post here is a departure from that topic. To prove my point, you will recall that I pointed out to those of Israel Jesus said would be cast out into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt 8:12) as evidence that some Israel will not partake of the land promise? But in your departure, you addressed the fate and dilemma of Jewish converts in the 1st century that prompted Paul to write to allay their concerns in chapter 10. My point is, this has no bearing on what we were discussing.

                                Furthermore, I never said that OT Israel had faith in Jesus! They had faith in Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - their Patriarchs.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X