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  • #31
    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
    Nehemiah and Ezra also wrote of the unity of the 12 tribes after the return from Babylonian exile, and how all 12 tribes brought their offerings to Jerusalem, and were all duly represented.

    Representatives of all 12 Tribes are all identified many times generically as the 12, and specifically as tribal members by name(except Reuben), following the Exile Return.

    Joshua also taught following the return from Egyptian exile, that all the land promises to Abraham were fulfilled.

    But all of that said, there is no greater promise for Israel, than what was fulfilled when out of Bethlehem came the ruler from everlasting to everlasting, whose feet stood on the My of Olives, and who was the raised horn of salvation for all of them.
    You couldn't have put it better and I'm completely in agreement.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

      Originally posted by Walls View Post
      You have missed a crucial point. The Covenant regulating David's House is that he, and his Seed, WILL HAVE A THRONE OVER A KINGDOM (2nd Sam.7:13-16). What is a king without a kingdom - NOTHING! And that KINGDOM is UNITED Israel. When Acts 15 talks of raising up the House of David, it IMPLIES JESUS and it IMPLIES THE UNITED KINGDOM OF ISRAEL. I have made "Seed" above with a Capital "S" as our Lord Jesus is of the House of David and it is His KINGDOM that is implied.
      My argument is about the fate of the "living" Israel. I have no disagreement with your understanding of what will happen after the resurrection. But I must add a proviso that eliminates the "wicked" Hebrew/Israel from participating from the land promises.

      Originally posted by Walls View Post
      As to Asher, have you not read 2nd Chronicles 30? There, some individuals refused the dictates of the norther kings and went to Jerusalem for the Passover at king Hezekiah's time. Them God spared.
      I mentioned Anna of the tribe of Aser in Luke 2:36 as a rebuttal to the erroneous assumption that unification of the 12 tribes has not occurred. This scriptural evidence proves that it has already taken place at the time of Christ and going forward to the church age.

      Originally posted by Walls View Post
      But brother, consider this. In Hebrews 11:8-13 the whole Israeli posterity of Abraham, "Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." This multitude WANTED the Land. They BELIEVED God for the Land - and they died without receiving it. Do you mean that this multitude will not be gathered back from their graves in Egypt? Is your God like this? Will there be no gathering so that Abraham's belief in resurrection was VAIN? These are NOT CHRISTIANS. They "sprang" from Abraham's loins - not from the Holy Spirit.
      I have already addressed this in an earlier post today; the devout and righteous Hebrew/Israelites will, of course, resurrect into immortality. And once in immortality, it makes no difference whether they live in Calcutta or Jerusalem. Just kidding - of course, they will live in Jerusalem, the holy city!

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

        Originally posted by percho View Post
        If my understanding is correct, it is through the gathering of Israel that the nations, heathens, gentiles know, the the Lord he is God. That is those other than the ones who God had taken out as a people for his name or for his names sake.
        When you say the "nations" I suppose you mean living Gentiles, right? If this is correct, then the "Israel" being gathered per your argument is the 'living' not the dead as Walls has posited?
        Now, if the above are true expressions of your position - why would the gathering of the diaspora Israel to their homeland convince the unbelieving Gentile that Jesus is Lord, where the holy Gospel has failed?

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          My argument is about the fate of the "living" Israel. I have no disagreement with your understanding of what will happen after the resurrection. But I must add a proviso that eliminates the "wicked" Hebrew/Israel from participating from the land promises.
          It is truly a pity that you did not give scripture for the "elimination of the wicked Hebrew/Israelite from participating from the land of promise". The Covenant of Promise made with Abraham did not contain this proviso. It laid forth, as the only prerequisite, CIRCUMCISION. Added to this, Israel's sins will be forgiven (Jer.31:33-34, etc.). However, Daniel 12:2 shows that those who actively broke the Law, though they be given their Land, will be remembered in contempt.

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          I mentioned Anna of the tribe of Aser in Luke 2:36 as a rebuttal to the erroneous assumption that unification of the 12 tribes has not occurred. This scriptural evidence proves that it has already taken place at the time of Christ and going forward to the church age.
          If God's prediction that Israel would be "as the sand of the seashore", the population of the ten northern Tribes would have run into the tens of millions by 720 BC. To say that a unification with Judah had taken place because a small remnant went down to feast the Passover at Jerusalem is somewhat stretching it. Unity is made of (i) living together, (ii) believing the same thing, (iii) abiding by the same rules, and (iv) putting a united front against any enemies. The the ten northern tribes fulfilled NONE of these by 720 BC. Added to this, never forget that it was God who made the division. It will take God to re-unite them. This is predicted in Ezekiel 37. "Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and (I) will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand" (Ezekiel 37:19).

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          I have already addressed this in an earlier post today; the devout and righteous Hebrew/Israelites will, of course, resurrect into immortality. And once in immortality, it makes no difference whether they live in Calcutta or Jerusalem. Just kidding - of course, they will live in Jerusalem, the holy city!
          I would like to point out that resurrection is NOT based on WORKS. It is based on God's Character that does not allow a fallen situation to go on indefinitely. Death is His ENEMY and He will put it down. This means that EVERY man or woman ever born, including the ten most evil people on earth that you can think of, will be resurrected (1st Cor.15:22). If one stems from Adam, one will be resurrected. The Lake of Fire is for LIVING men, angels and demons. There is NO DEATH on the New Earth.

          I would also like to point out that it might not be important to Christians at large where resurrected Israelites live. But God made PROMISE that Jacob's seed would dwell in Canaan "as an everlasting possession" (Gen.17:8, 48:4). It is nothing less than God's INTEGRITY that is at stake. Rest assured that EVERY SINGLE CIRCUMCISED ISRAELITE - good and bad - will dwell in Canaan shortly after the beginning of the Messianic age. God said so. It will be so!

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

            Originally posted by Walls View Post
            It is truly a pity that you did not give scripture for the "elimination of the wicked Hebrew/Israelite from participating from the land of promise". The Covenant of Promise made with Abraham did not contain this proviso. It laid forth, as the only prerequisite, CIRCUMCISION. Added to this, Israel's sins will be forgiven (Jer.31:33-34, etc.). However, Daniel 12:2 shows that those who actively broke the Law, though they be given their Land, will be remembered in contempt.
            1. Yes, Dan 12:2 says the wicked Jew shall rise to everlasting contempt. Everlasting contempt for the resurrected denotes eternal punishment in the lake of fire. I don't see how one in the LoF can still participate in the land promises, do you?

            2. You asked for scriptural proof that the wicked will not partake of the land promises, right? How about this:

            Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
            Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.


            [QUOTE]
            Originally posted by Walls View Post
            If God's prediction that Israel would be "as the sand of the seashore", the population of the ten northern Tribes would have run into the tens of millions by 720 BC. To say that a unification with Judah had taken place because a small remnant went down to feast the Passover at Jerusalem is somewhat stretching it. Unity is made of (i) living together, (ii) believing the same thing, (iii) abiding by the same rules, and (iv) putting a united front against any enemies. The the ten northern tribes fulfilled NONE of these by 720 BC. Added to this, never forget that it was God who made the division. It will take God to re-unite them. This is predicted in Ezekiel 37. "Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and (I) will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand" (Ezekiel 37:19).
            The scripture (Luke 2:36) didn't say that Anna, the prophetess was visiting Jerusalem for the Passover feast as you intimated. She was described as aged/old (great age). Her father, lineage was mentioned - the daughter of Phanuel. There's nothing in the scripture to suggest that she has NOT lived all her life in Jerusalem. Would you mind clarifying for my understanding whether you think the purported 'unification' will occur for the living or the dead? It is important for me to understand your position on this.

            My view of Ezekiel 37:19 is that it is already fulfilled.

            Originally posted by Walls View Post
            I would like to point out that resurrection is NOT based on WORKS. It is based on God's Character that does not allow a fallen situation to go on indefinitely. Death is His ENEMY and He will put it down. This means that EVERY man or woman ever born, including the ten most evil people on earth that you can think of, will be resurrected (1st Cor.15:22). If one stems from Adam, one will be resurrected. The Lake of Fire is for LIVING men, angels and demons. There is NO DEATH on the New Earth.

            I would also like to point out that it might not be important to Christians at large where resurrected Israelites live. But God made PROMISE that Jacob's seed would dwell in Canaan "as an everlasting possession" (Gen.17:8, 48:4). It is nothing less than God's INTEGRITY that is at stake. Rest assured that EVERY SINGLE CIRCUMCISED ISRAELITE - good and bad - will dwell in Canaan shortly after the beginning of the Messianic age. God said so. It will be so!
            Of course, I believe that every person who ever lived whether in wickedness or righteous shall arise again - I wonder why you mentioned it since it's not part of our discourse? The lake of fire is for the wicked who shall be judged after the resurrection at the GWTJ. Apart from the Beast, his false prophet and the Satan, I'm not sure there's any record of any other "living man" (flesh and blood) that will be cast into the lake of fire.

            With regards to the new earth, I also concur that there will no death in it.

            How can the resurrected "bad/wicked Israel" live in the promised land? Do you realise that living and partaking in the land promises is synonymous with eternal life? If your argument is true, then every Israel from those who rebelled against God and Moses in the wilderness, to those who continue to reject Christ and will fall at the hands of the AC will arise to live with Jesus in the millennium. Is this really your belief?

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
              1. Yes, Dan 12:2 says the wicked Jew shall rise to everlasting contempt. Everlasting contempt for the resurrected denotes eternal punishment in the lake of fire. I don't see how one in the LoF can still participate in the land promises, do you?
              The Lake of Fire is used interchangeably with "the Second Death", "destruction" and/or "perdition". Vine tells us that the Greek word we render "perdition" means "extreme lack of well being". Our Lord Jesus alludes to it twice. Once in Matthew 10:28, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna", and once in His own agony in Gethsemane. He says there, "My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me" (Matt.26:38; Mk.14:34), and His Body sweated blood. It is not commonly taught because we Christians focus on the bodily death of Christ, but our Lord, in oreder to pay the full price of all sins must experience the Lake of Fire, or Gehenna of Matthew 10:28. So, while Hades is a PLACE (of the souls of dead men), Gehenna, or "perdition" is a state of exquisite suffering of a LIVING MAN.

              Thus, those of Daniel 12:2 are resurrected, as the verse says, but their STATE is awful. They are LIVING, and living in Canaan, but, as Isaiah 66:24 assures us, "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." Have you ever considered that to "look upon" these men in psychological and physical agony, they would have to be your neighbor? In this way, God can BOTH fulfill His Promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob by raising and gathering ALL Israel who ever lived, and yet meet out just punishment.

              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
              2. You asked for scriptural proof that the wicked will not partake of the land promises, right? How about this:

              Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
              Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
              The Kingdom of God is when God is acknowledged and obeyed as King of a certain sphere. Thus, when Christ returns and ousts "the Prince of this world", binds him in the Abyss for a thousand years and institutes God's rule on earth - THAT is the Kingdom of God spoken of in Luke 13:27-28. It is the UNIVERSAL Kingdom of God filling the whole earth as predicted by Daniel. Israel is only part of this Kingdom.

              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
              The scripture (Luke 2:36) didn't say that Anna, the prophetess was visiting Jerusalem for the Passover feast as you intimated. She was described as aged/old (great age). Her father, lineage was mentioned - the daughter of Phanuel. There's nothing in the scripture to suggest that she has NOT lived all her life in Jerusalem. Would you mind clarifying for my understanding whether you think the purported 'unification' will occur for the living or the dead? It is important for me to understand your position on this.
              We almost agree here. If Anna was an Asheritess, which she was, she would have been resident in Judea, or even Jerusalem her whole life. Those of the ten northern Tribes that missed the deportation of Assyria would have been among those carried off to Babylon, and among those who returned 70 years later. Anna's ancestors would have been living in and around Jerusalem since about 530 BC.

              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
              My view of Ezekiel 37:19 is that it is already fulfilled.
              Consider this. The Promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob for the Land of Canaan was to their SEED. Every single person who proceeded from the loins of Jacob is included. Ezekiel 37 predicts TWO things: (1) The RESURRECTION of every Israelite who ever lived, and (2) The uniting of all these people into one nation in their Land. According to 1st Corinthians 15:23 this resurrection takes place ONLY at Christ0s Coming, and Daniel 12:2 agrees. There the resurrection is only after the Great Tribulation. But it is even easier than that. Among the SEED of Jacob (Israel) are all the prophets starting with Moses, all the Kings starting with Saul, and all the characters of the Old Testament who were Israelites. If Ezekiel 37 was accomplished you would be able to see, touch, visit and talk to them all. In anticipation of this coming glorious event, Jeremiah bought a piece of Israel. If Ezekiel 37 is accomplished, Jeremiah would be found on his possession.

              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
              Of course, I believe that every person who ever lived whether in wickedness or righteous shall arise again - I wonder why you mentioned it since it's not part of our discourse? The lake of fire is for the wicked who shall be judged after the resurrection at the GWTJ. Apart from the Beast, his false prophet and the Satan, I'm not sure there's any record of any other "living man" (flesh and blood) that will be cast into the lake of fire.
              What of the LIVING of Matthew 25:31-46? They are those who will be judged on how they treated a Christian or a Jew during the Great Tribulation.

              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
              How can the resurrected "bad/wicked Israel" live in the promised land? Do you realise that living and partaking in the land promises is synonymous with eternal life? If your argument is true, then every Israel from those who rebelled against God and Moses in the wilderness, to those who continue to reject Christ and will fall at the hands of the AC will arise to live with Jesus in the millennium. Is this really your belief?
              My answer to your first point above should be enough. But I will address "eternal life". According to John 3:15 and John 20:30-31, there is only ONE WAY to obtain eternal life. That is, BELIEF in Jesus, His Person and His Work. ANY MAN, and I repeat, ANY MAN who does not exercise faith in, and call upon the Lord Jesus IN FAITH, CANNOT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. Israel REFUSED Jesus while he was on earth, and Israel continue to REFUSE Jesus via the gospel. By the time Paul wrote Romans God had concluded ALL Israel in UNBELIEF (Rom.11:32). Hebrews 11:1 defines faith as, "... the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Israel remain in UNBELIEF until they SEE our Lord Jesus break forth from the clouds over Mount Olives. At the moment of SIGHT, FAITH IS NO MORE for it is NOT "UNSEEN". Israel can NEVER partake of eternal life. ONLY BELIEVERS CAN HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

              This does not mean that an Israelite cannot enjoy life in the Good Land. The Old Testament prophets are full of the grand life of Israel restored to their Land and to God's favor. But to possess the intrinsic divine life and nature of God is only gotten by FAITH in what is UNSEEN.

              I would like to close by making the observation that in many things we have come closer to agreement.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

                Originally posted by Walls View Post
                The Lake of Fire is used interchangeably with "the Second Death", "destruction" and/or "perdition". Vine tells us that the Greek word we render "perdition" means "extreme lack of well being". Our Lord Jesus alludes to it twice. Once in Matthew 10:28, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna", and once in His own agony in Gethsemane. He says there, "My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me" (Matt.26:38; Mk.14:34), and His Body sweated blood. It is not commonly taught because we Christians focus on the bodily death of Christ, but our Lord, in oreder to pay the full price of all sins must experience the Lake of Fire, or Gehenna of Matthew 10:28. So, while Hades is a PLACE (of the souls of dead men), Gehenna, or "perdition" is a state of exquisite suffering of a LIVING MAN.
                1. Jesus did not enter the lake of fire! I don't know where you read that?
                2. The lake of fire is the place of eternal suffering for the soul of the wicked - not the living man.
                3. You may not believe me so, perhaps you should seek confirmation elsewhere.

                Originally posted by Walls View Post
                Thus, those of Daniel 12:2 are resurrected, as the verse says, but their STATE is awful. They are LIVING, and living in Canaan, but, as Isaiah 66:24 assures us, "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." Have you ever considered that to "look upon" these men in psychological and physical agony, they would have to be your neighbor? In this way, God can BOTH fulfill His Promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob by raising and gathering ALL Israel who ever lived, and yet meet out just punishment.
                Your doctrine is awry because what you are suggesting is contrary to scripture! It is impossible for the resurrected wicked to dwell in Jerusalem. Actually, Isaiah 66:24 refers to those in the lake of fire. Think about it; how can they rise to live in Jerusalem with the fire burning them day and night?

                Originally posted by Walls View Post
                The Kingdom of God is when God is acknowledged and obeyed as King of a certain sphere. Thus, when Christ returns and ousts "the Prince of this world", binds him in the Abyss for a thousand years and institutes God's rule on earth - THAT is the Kingdom of God spoken of in Luke 13:27-28. It is the UNIVERSAL Kingdom of God filling the whole earth as predicted by Daniel. Israel is only part of this Kingdom.
                The Israel that is part of the Kingdom of God is the 'righteous' of them. Just as the sinful Gentile will not inherit the King of God, the same applies to the sinful Jew. Again, claiming that a sinful wicked Israeli will enter the kingdom of God is bad doctrine.

                Originally posted by Walls View Post
                We almost agree here. If Anna was an Asheritess, which she was, she would have been resident in Judea, or even Jerusalem her whole life. Those of the ten northern Tribes that missed the deportation of Assyria would have been among those carried off to Babylon, and among those who returned 70 years later. Anna's ancestors would have been living in and around Jerusalem since about 530 BC.
                You may yet be right about prophetess Anna, but I don't see how it proves that the unification of the living has not occurred?

                Originally posted by Walls View Post
                Consider this. The Promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob for the Land of Canaan was to their SEED. Every single person who proceeded from the loins of Jacob is included. Ezekiel 37 predicts TWO things: (1) The RESURRECTION of every Israelite who ever lived, and (2) The uniting of all these people into one nation in their Land. According to 1st Corinthians 15:23 this resurrection takes place ONLY at Christ0s Coming, and Daniel 12:2 agrees. There the resurrection is only after the Great Tribulation. But it is even easier than that. Among the SEED of Jacob (Israel) are all the prophets starting with Moses, all the Kings starting with Saul, and all the characters of the Old Testament who were Israelites. If Ezekiel 37 was accomplished you would be able to see, touch, visit and talk to them all. In anticipation of this coming glorious event, Jeremiah bought a piece of Israel. If Ezekiel 37 is accomplished, Jeremiah would be found on his possession.
                Since every dead person will rise either to eternal life or eternal damnation, the unification of Israel, therefore, pertains only to the living. And in this regard, the 'living Israel' is now unified.

                Originally posted by Walls View Post
                What of the LIVING of Matthew 25:31-46? They are those who will be judged on how they treated a Christian or a Jew during the Great Tribulation.
                I don't believe that interpretation of the Matt 25:31-46 is sound.

                Originally posted by Walls View Post
                My answer to your first point above should be enough. But I will address "eternal life". According to John 3:15 and John 20:30-31, there is only ONE WAY to obtain eternal life. That is, BELIEF in Jesus, His Person and His Work. ANY MAN, and I repeat, ANY MAN who does not exercise faith in, and call upon the Lord Jesus IN FAITH, CANNOT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. Israel REFUSED Jesus while he was on earth, and Israel continue to REFUSE Jesus via the gospel. By the time Paul wrote Romans God had concluded ALL Israel in UNBELIEF (Rom.11:32). Hebrews 11:1 defines faith as, "... the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Israel remain in UNBELIEF until they SEE our Lord Jesus break forth from the clouds over Mount Olives. At the moment of SIGHT, FAITH IS NO MORE for it is NOT "UNSEEN". Israel can NEVER partake of eternal life. ONLY BELIEVERS CAN HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

                This does not mean that an Israelite cannot enjoy life in the Good Land. The Old Testament prophets are full of the grand life of Israel restored to their Land and to God's favor. But to possess the intrinsic divine life and nature of God is only gotten by FAITH in what is UNSEEN.

                I would like to close by making the observation that in many things we have come closer to agreement.
                You could say that the church will not face judgment at the GWTJ. But the righteous of Israel from the Patriarchs to the prophets will all rise to live in eternity with Jesus. I know that "eternal life" is an NT term, however, we cannot deny that the OT saints too will not resurrect to live forever/eternally. But the wicked among them shall be condemned to eternal punishment in the lake of fire.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  1. Jesus did not enter the lake of fire! I don't know where you read that?
                  2. The lake of fire is the place of eternal suffering for the soul of the wicked - not the living man.
                  3. You may not believe me so, perhaps you should seek confirmation elsewhere.



                  Your doctrine is awry because what you are suggesting is contrary to scripture! It is impossible for the resurrected wicked to dwell in Jerusalem. Actually, Isaiah 66:24 refers to those in the lake of fire. Think about it; how can they rise to live in Jerusalem with the fire burning them day and night?



                  The Israel that is part of the Kingdom of God is the 'righteous' of them. Just as the sinful Gentile will not inherit the King of God, the same applies to the sinful Jew. Again, claiming that a sinful wicked Israeli will enter the kingdom of God is bad doctrine.



                  You may yet be right about prophetess Anna, but I don't see how it proves that the unification of the living has not occurred?



                  Since every dead person will rise either to eternal life or eternal damnation, the unification of Israel, therefore, pertains only to the living. And in this regard, the 'living Israel' is now unified.



                  I don't believe that interpretation of the Matt 25:31-46 is sound.



                  You could say that the church will not face judgment at the GWTJ. But the righteous of Israel from the Patriarchs to the prophets will all rise to live in eternity with Jesus. I know that "eternal life" is an NT term, however, we cannot deny that the OT saints too will not resurrect to live forever/eternally. But the wicked among them shall be condemned to eternal punishment in the lake of fire.
                  Thank you for your answer. Your understanding of things is noted. Also noted is that you gave not a single scripture. So I will just answer one thing - the Lake of Fire. You say it is a PLACE (para 1, point#2). On what basis? It is described as;
                  1. A LAKE - this brings the connotation of being immersed. After the earth is immersed in water twice (Gen.1.2 and Chapter 7), God promises not to immerse the earth again in water. But He says nothing of men and nothing of fire
                  2. A Lake of FIRE - that is, FIRE is the portion of those assigned thereto. So both Isaiah 66 and Mark 9 talk of THEIR FIRE will not be quenched. The word "their" shows a personal fire. It is NOT "THE fire will not be quenched". This show a CONDITION not a place
                  3. PERDITION - that is, as explained already, "exquisite lack of well-being" (Vine). This does not show a place but a CONDITION
                  4. GEHENNA - that is, the connotation of the Valley of Hinnom - the Vallley on the south side of Jerusalem which is two things. (i) It is the rubbish dump of Jerusalem where the trash of the city is burned, including cadavers of unclean animals. The fires rage day and night. (ii) The Valley where the Canaanites, and later Israel, caused their children to pass through fire to appease Molech the demon-god of fire. The picture Gehenna awakes is that you were so close to the "City of the Great King" but shut out and designated as trash to be burned because you loved and obeyed something else besides Jehovah
                  5. THE SECOND DEATH. The "First death" is physical death. We all die because of sin (singular), the inherited nature of Adam (Rom.5:12). This death will be overcome by resurrection (1st Cor.15:22-26). But there is another death - the death of the soul. Christ makes it a prerequisite for entering the Kingdom of Heaven. In Matthew 16:24-27 the word "life", which is "psuché" in the Greek, is used interchangeably with "soul". It is the criteria that the Christian will be rewarded for when our Lord sets up His throne on earth (v.27). And losing ones soul is defined as (i) taking up a personal cross, and (ii) "denying oneself". The cross refers to the flesh, for it is the body that is killed on the cross, and denying oneself pertains to the soul which contains the will of man. In Gethsemane, our Lord Jesus faced the unthinkable. He sweated blood showing extreme "lack of well being" by His decision to go through what the Father had asked of Him. He cries; "... my SOUL is sorrowful EVEN UNTO DEATH". Later that same day He faced the most awful of physical deaths. This "Second Death" is explained in Matthew 10:28. "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."

                  Roman Catholic TRADITION, which is copied by Protestantism, believes that the Lake of Fire is a PLACE. There is NO verse that says this. ALL the above proofs show that IT IS A PERSONAL INTRINSIC SUFFERING of both body and soul. An example would the excruciating pain of cancer while recovering from 3rd degree burns coupled with bankruptcy, divorce and the loss of a loved one ALL AT ONE TIME. Thus, the angels, who cannot die, can suffer this. The demons can suffer it seeing as they are spirits and also cannot die. And the only men who go to the Lake of Fire are LIVING men in every case. The Lake of Fire is NOT A PLACE.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

                    Originally posted by Walls View Post
                    Thank you for your answer. Your understanding of things is noted. Also noted is that you gave not a single scripture. So I will just answer one thing - the Lake of Fire. You say it is a PLACE (para 1, point#2). On what basis? It is described as;
                    1. A LAKE - this brings the connotation of being immersed. After the earth is immersed in water twice (Gen.1.2 and Chapter 7), God promises not to immerse the earth again in water. But He says nothing of men and nothing of fire
                    2. A Lake of FIRE - that is, FIRE is the portion of those assigned thereto. So both Isaiah 66 and Mark 9 talk of THEIR FIRE will not be quenched. The word "their" shows a personal fire. It is NOT "THE fire will not be quenched". This show a CONDITION not a place
                    3. PERDITION - that is, as explained already, "exquisite lack of well-being" (Vine). This does not show a place but a CONDITION
                    4. GEHENNA - that is, the connotation of the Valley of Hinnom - the Vallley on the south side of Jerusalem which is two things. (i) It is the rubbish dump of Jerusalem where the trash of the city is burned, including cadavers of unclean animals. The fires rage day and night. (ii) The Valley where the Canaanites, and later Israel, caused their children to pass through fire to appease Molech the demon-god of fire. The picture Gehenna awakes is that you were so close to the "City of the Great King" but shut out and designated as trash to be burned because you loved and obeyed something else besides Jehovah
                    5. THE SECOND DEATH. The "First death" is physical death. We all die because of sin (singular), the inherited nature of Adam (Rom.5:12). This death will be overcome by resurrection (1st Cor.15:22-26). But there is another death - the death of the soul. Christ makes it a prerequisite for entering the Kingdom of Heaven. In Matthew 16:24-27 the word "life", which is "psuché" in the Greek, is used interchangeably with "soul". It is the criteria that the Christian will be rewarded for when our Lord sets up His throne on earth (v.27). And losing ones soul is defined as (i) taking up a personal cross, and (ii) "denying oneself". The cross refers to the flesh, for it is the body that is killed on the cross, and denying oneself pertains to the soul which contains the will of man. In Gethsemane, our Lord Jesus faced the unthinkable. He sweated blood showing extreme "lack of well being" by His decision to go through what the Father had asked of Him. He cries; "... my SOUL is sorrowful EVEN UNTO DEATH". Later that same day He faced the most awful of physical deaths. This "Second Death" is explained in Matthew 10:28. "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."

                    Roman Catholic TRADITION, which is copied by Protestantism, believes that the Lake of Fire is a PLACE. There is NO verse that says this. ALL the above proofs show that IT IS A PERSONAL INTRINSIC SUFFERING of both body and soul. An example would the excruciating pain of cancer while recovering from 3rd degree burns coupled with bankruptcy, divorce and the loss of a loved one ALL AT ONE TIME. Thus, the angels, who cannot die, can suffer this. The demons can suffer it seeing as they are spirits and also cannot die. And the only men who go to the Lake of Fire are LIVING men in every case. The Lake of Fire is NOT A PLACE.
                    I think you are missing some important points. First how can anybody or anything be thrown into something that is not a place? Rev. 19:20 « ... These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone », this is the same as Mat. 25:41 « Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels ».

                    Then is « first » death what we humans call death? Isn't it what the Lord means in Mat. 8:22 « ... Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead », those « dead » were still alive. What punishment is there in being dead? One could say the lack of living, but if one doesn't know anything, death isn't a punishment. I hope we agree the dead know nothing at all Ecc. 9:5. So if those who are punished by second death are resurrected from their « first » dead and then killed so they are dead again, there is no purpose in this at all.

                    According to God, not being in communion with His Spirit is equal to being dead. If one is deprived of the true source of life one is dead, hence Mat. 8:22. It doesn't really matter if one has a beating heart, one is dead anyway. We can call this « spiritually dead », a phrase you dislike.

                    Then you say that angels cannot die, where does Scripture say this? We know the Lord says those who are worthy of the resurrection neither can die anymore (Luke 20:36), but the meaning of this depends on the word « can ». The Greek word is « dunamai », and although translated many times in « can » and « cannot », it is also translated in « able », « could », « canst », « may », « might », « mayest », « possible » and « power ». Besides all that, only of the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ it is written They are immortal or as the Greek says Christ has « deathlessness » 1 Tim. 6:16. Then we have John 5:26 which says « For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself ».

                    That spiritual beings (angels, demons, cherubs etc.) are not immortal — therefore do not have life in themselves — is sideways proven by the fate of Satan who will once become ashes on the earth Eze. 28:18. So although they do not have a natural death like humans have, they are neither immortal.

                    Aristarkos

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

                      Originally posted by Walls View Post
                      Thank you for your answer. Your understanding of things is noted. Also noted is that you gave not a single scripture. So I will just answer one thing - the Lake of Fire. You say it is a PLACE (para 1, point#2). On what basis? It is described as;
                      1. A LAKE - this brings the connotation of being immersed. After the earth is immersed in water twice (Gen.1.2 and Chapter 7), God promises not to immerse the earth again in water. But He says nothing of men and nothing of fire
                      2. A Lake of FIRE - that is, FIRE is the portion of those assigned thereto. So both Isaiah 66 and Mark 9 talk of THEIR FIRE will not be quenched. The word "their" shows a personal fire. It is NOT "THE fire will not be quenched". This show a CONDITION not a place
                      3. PERDITION - that is, as explained already, "exquisite lack of well-being" (Vine). This does not show a place but a CONDITION
                      4. GEHENNA - that is, the connotation of the Valley of Hinnom - the Vallley on the south side of Jerusalem which is two things. (i) It is the rubbish dump of Jerusalem where the trash of the city is burned, including cadavers of unclean animals. The fires rage day and night. (ii) The Valley where the Canaanites, and later Israel, caused their children to pass through fire to appease Molech the demon-god of fire. The picture Gehenna awakes is that you were so close to the "City of the Great King" but shut out and designated as trash to be burned because you loved and obeyed something else besides Jehovah
                      5. THE SECOND DEATH. The "First death" is physical death. We all die because of sin (singular), the inherited nature of Adam (Rom.5:12). This death will be overcome by resurrection (1st Cor.15:22-26). But there is another death - the death of the soul. Christ makes it a prerequisite for entering the Kingdom of Heaven. In Matthew 16:24-27 the word "life", which is "psuché" in the Greek, is used interchangeably with "soul". It is the criteria that the Christian will be rewarded for when our Lord sets up His throne on earth (v.27). And losing ones soul is defined as (i) taking up a personal cross, and (ii) "denying oneself". The cross refers to the flesh, for it is the body that is killed on the cross, and denying oneself pertains to the soul which contains the will of man. In Gethsemane, our Lord Jesus faced the unthinkable. He sweated blood showing extreme "lack of well being" by His decision to go through what the Father had asked of Him. He cries; "... my SOUL is sorrowful EVEN UNTO DEATH". Later that same day He faced the most awful of physical deaths. This "Second Death" is explained in Matthew 10:28. "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."

                      Roman Catholic TRADITION, which is copied by Protestantism, believes that the Lake of Fire is a PLACE. There is NO verse that says this. ALL the above proofs show that IT IS A PERSONAL INTRINSIC SUFFERING of both body and soul. An example would the excruciating pain of cancer while recovering from 3rd degree burns coupled with bankruptcy, divorce and the loss of a loved one ALL AT ONE TIME. Thus, the angels, who cannot die, can suffer this. The demons can suffer it seeing as they are spirits and also cannot die. And the only men who go to the Lake of Fire are LIVING men in every case. The Lake of Fire is NOT A PLACE.
                      We have very different understandings of these important doctrines. I'm unable to accept your interpretation of the lake of fire.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

                        Originally posted by Aristarkos View Post
                        I think you are missing some important points. First how can anybody or anything be thrown into something that is not a place? Rev. 19:20 « ... These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone », this is the same as Mat. 25:41 « Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels ».

                        Then is « first » death what we humans call death? Isn't it what the Lord means in Mat. 8:22 « ... Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead », those « dead » were still alive. What punishment is there in being dead? One could say the lack of living, but if one doesn't know anything, death isn't a punishment. I hope we agree the dead know nothing at all Ecc. 9:5. So if those who are punished by second death are resurrected from their « first » dead and then killed so they are dead again, there is no purpose in this at all.

                        According to God, not being in communion with His Spirit is equal to being dead. If one is deprived of the true source of life one is dead, hence Mat. 8:22. It doesn't really matter if one has a beating heart, one is dead anyway. We can call this « spiritually dead », a phrase you dislike.

                        Then you say that angels cannot die, where does Scripture say this? We know the Lord says those who are worthy of the resurrection neither can die anymore (Luke 20:36), but the meaning of this depends on the word « can ». The Greek word is « dunamai », and although translated many times in « can » and « cannot », it is also translated in « able », « could », « canst », « may », « might », « mayest », « possible » and « power ». Besides all that, only of the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ it is written They are immortal or as the Greek says Christ has « deathlessness » 1 Tim. 6:16. Then we have John 5:26 which says « For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself ».

                        That spiritual beings (angels, demons, cherubs etc.) are not immortal — therefore do not have life in themselves — is sideways proven by the fate of Satan who will once become ashes on the earth Eze. 28:18. So although they do not have a natural death like humans have, they are neither immortal.

                        Aristarkos
                        You are on point. I totally agree.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

                          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                          Of course, I concur that God restored them to uphold his name and promise and not that they deserve it. That said, I should point out that some are confusing Israel's national revival in the end times with that of re-gathering. Gathering as recorded from the Babylonian exile and the events after WWII leading up to 1948 denotes a mass return of people to their homeland. There is no emphasis on whether people believe or not, so it's not about revival.

                          In contrast, a revival is a rejection of the unworthy idols or lifestyle that is bereft of Christ to turn to the living God. Now, there's no requirement that the unbelieving Jew must return to Jerusalem before he accepts Christ. The way I see it and I believe the scriptures agree with me too, is that the gathering is done. The diaspora can make their way home at their own discretion - it's now a personal decision as against a mass divine intervention calling them back home.

                          In recap, Israel coming en masse to Christ in the end times should not be regarded or confused with 'gathering' which is a return of the diaspora.
                          It's a good question. I personally believe the regathering of Israel is not yet over, but will be completed at the return of Christ. The restoration of Israel has long been talked about in Christian circles. And the Jews have, even longer, contemplated a national revival--"next year in Jerusalem." They saw, from OT times, a coming "Messianic Age," or the "Age to Come," in which the people would be restored to covenant relationship with God.

                          Israel today is not in covenant relationship with God. They may think they are, in some Orthodox circles, but biblically, they are not. Only Christ's Covenant is valid today, and those in Judaism have rejected Christ's Covenant. And so, I believe there is coming a restoration of a remnant of Jews to the covenant of Christ. The rest in Israel will be judged.

                          So we are not talking about a full restoration of Israel, in the sense that all will be saved. Rather, we're talking about a full judgment of Israel, allowing a complete restoration of Israel to take place along new lines, according to Christian standards. This will likely complete the Jews' regathering from the historic Diaspora. It will be a full restoration of the Israeli State, as well as a complete Christianization of that State. But it will only take place by destroying Judaism in the process, and along with it those Jews who remain entrenched in it.

                          It will be, 1st of all, a *political salvation.* But inasmuch as this political salvation will be brought about by the coming of Christ it will also render judgment among the Jews between those who accept him and those who don't. The armies of Armageddon will bear down on Israel, and break the power of the Jews and their religion, Judaism. But Christ will deliver Israel, defeat the Antichrist, and restore Israel both politically and spiritually.

                          Zech 13.“On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity."

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

                            Originally posted by randyk View Post
                            It's a good question. I personally believe the regathering of Israel is not yet over, but will be completed at the return of Christ. The restoration of Israel has long been talked about in Christian circles. And the Jews have, even longer, contemplated a national revival--"next year in Jerusalem." They saw, from OT times, a coming "Messianic Age," or the "Age to Come," in which the people would be restored to covenant relationship with God.

                            Israel today is not in covenant relationship with God. They may think they are, in some Orthodox circles, but biblically, they are not. Only Christ's Covenant is valid today, and those in Judaism have rejected Christ's Covenant. And so, I believe there is coming a restoration of a remnant of Jews to the covenant of Christ. The rest in Israel will be judged.

                            So we are not talking about a full restoration of Israel, in the sense that all will be saved. Rather, we're talking about a full judgment of Israel, allowing a complete restoration of Israel to take place along new lines, according to Christian standards. This will likely complete the Jews' regathering from the historic Diaspora. It will be a full restoration of the Israeli State, as well as a complete Christianization of that State. But it will only take place by destroying Judaism in the process, and along with it those Jews who remain entrenched in it.

                            It will be, 1st of all, a *political salvation.* But inasmuch as this political salvation will be brought about by the coming of Christ it will also render judgment among the Jews between those who accept him and those who don't. The armies of Armageddon will bear down on Israel, and break the power of the Jews and their religion, Judaism. But Christ will deliver Israel, defeat the Antichrist, and restore Israel both politically and spiritually.

                            Zech 13.“On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity."
                            As usual, you ticked all the right boxes. Personally, I don't see Israel's future national revival that will have those that will be saved grafted back into the Olive Tree as a "regathering" of Israel. Understandably, there is a diverse understanding of what the gathering of Israel entails. In this regards, the gathering in my view is the "unification" of living Judah and Israel as one "people/nation" as it was under David. This is totally different from their revival that turns them back to Christ.

                            Now, it is my view that their physical unification has already taken place. No one can prove that ALL the Jews in Israel today is from Judah. Scripturally, if only a handful of those from Israel merges with those from Judah - the prophecy is fulfilled. Therefore, what I believe remains to be fulfilled is their spiritual revival back to their Messiah. As you aptly put it, that will come when Judaism is finally proscribed (Zech 12:10).

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              As usual, you ticked all the right boxes. Personally, I don't see Israel's future national revival that will have those that will be saved grafted back into the Olive Tree as a "regathering" of Israel. Understandably, there is a diverse understanding of what the gathering of Israel entails. In this regards, the gathering in my view is the "unification" of living Judah and Israel as one "people/nation" as it was under David. This is totally different from their revival that turns them back to Christ.

                              Now, it is my view that their physical unification has already taken place. No one can prove that ALL the Jews in Israel today is from Judah. Scripturally, if only a handful of those from Israel merges with those from Judah - the prophecy is fulfilled. Therefore, what I believe remains to be fulfilled is their spiritual revival back to their Messiah. As you aptly put it, that will come when Judaism is finally proscribed (Zech 12:10).
                              Well the regathering of Israel is the physical promise that God made to Abraham. That means a restoration of a physical, living people from all 12 tribes of Israel. The 10 "lost" tribes are still lost to themselves. Once God gives them the Holy Spirit and carries out His plan, they will know all about it.
                              John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

                                Originally posted by Aristarkos View Post
                                I think you are missing some important points. First how can anybody or anything be thrown into something that is not a place? Rev. 19:20 « ... These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone », this is the same as Mat. 25:41 « Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels ».
                                It is as common as "dying IN pain", "I'm living IN pain" and "after he broke both legs he was living in a sea of pain". Added to this, I explained the connotation of a "Lake" in the posting - but you decided not to address it. It is not given to us to have things written in the bible to suit us. We must study what Gd has decided to write. If my explanation of God's choice of "Lake" is wrong, should you not, having the better knowledge, show what it is? For a start, where is this PLACE you claim it to be - with scriptures of course. Thanks.

                                Then is « first » death what we humans call death? Isn't it what the Lord means in Mat. 8:22 « ... Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead », those « dead » were still alive. What punishment is there in being dead? One could say the lack of living, but if one doesn't know anything, death isn't a punishment. I hope we agree the dead know nothing at all Ecc. 9:5. So if those who are punished by second death are resurrected from their « first » dead and then killed so they are dead again, there is no purpose in this at all.
                                The usage of "dead" in Matthew 8:22 does not change the meaning of death anymore than Ephesians 2:1, "And you hath he quickened, who were dead IN trespasses and sins" It is best explained by scripture itself in 2 Corinthians 1:9, "But we had the sentence of death IN ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead". Because sin, and the resulting sins guarantee death, we are regarded as dead IN these sins. It is God's VIEW of us IN something. In Ephesians 2:5 it is, "Even when we were dead IN sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved", whereas in Ephesians 2:6 it is, "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places IN Christ Jesus." This verse is PAST TENSE but you are neither resurrected nor sit in heavenly place. rather, it is your POSITION in Christ.

                                According to God, not being in communion with His Spirit is equal to being dead. If one is deprived of the true source of life one is dead, hence Mat. 8:22. It doesn't really matter if one has a beating heart, one is dead anyway. We can call this « spiritually dead », a phrase you dislike.
                                It is no that I like or dislike anything. It is, "does it appear in scripture?". Not only does the concept of a spirit dying not appear in the whole Bible, not only does the term "spiritually dead" not appear in the whole Bible, but being spiritually dead PRESUPPOSES that one had spiritual life before and lost it. This too is unscriptural.

                                Then you say that angels cannot die, where does Scripture say this? We know the Lord says those who are worthy of the resurrection neither can die anymore (Luke 20:36), but the meaning of this depends on the word « can ». The Greek word is « dunamai », and although translated many times in « can » and « cannot », it is also translated in « able », « could », « canst », « may », « might », « mayest », « possible » and « power ». Besides all that, only of the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ it is written They are immortal or as the Greek says Christ has « deathlessness » 1 Tim. 6:16. Then we have John 5:26 which says « For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself ».

                                That spiritual beings (angels, demons, cherubs etc.) are not immortal — therefore do not have life in themselves — is sideways proven by the fate of Satan who will once become ashes on the earth Eze. 28:18. So although they do not have a natural death like humans have, they are neither immortal.
                                You go to great lengths to make "can not die anymore" mean something else. I do not have to convolute. Taken with Hebrews 9:27 the matter is settled for me. Added to this, angels are spirits and there is not the slightest inclination in scripture to show a spirit dying. I also explained "the Second Death", which, if you disagree with, should show what it really is. Why not start with how a member of the Church, a born again Christian, who has divine life, can be "hurt of the Second Death" (Rev.2.11), and this, not because he stopped believing, but because he never OVERCAME - that is, HIS WORKS.

                                Finally, I find it strange that you cannot accept that the Second Death, or Gehenna, or the Lake of Fire is a CONDITION. It is said four times in Isaiah 66:24 and Mark 9:44-49, "... their worm dieth not, and their fire is not quenched". Revelation 14:10-11 indicates the same. "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." "Drinking" means one takes it INSIDE. "Torment" is a INTERNAL matter. "No rest" is a personal matter. And then to crown it all, if The Lake of Fire is a PLACE then Christ and His angels must be there too for all this takes place IN HIS PRESENCE!

                                Why not reread my posting with clean slate and take it sentence for sentence without a preconceived idea.

                                Comment

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