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Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

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  • Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
    Now I'm more confused. I thought you levelled the same atrocious transgressions against Israel
    I have never leveled anything against Israel or Judah in my entire life.

    which prompted me to point out that her sister Judah, wasn't far behind in disobedience to God?
    Judah was the worst of the two. It was Israel that was not too far behind.

    Jer 3:7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
    Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
    Jer 3:9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
    Jer 3:10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.
    Jer 3:11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.

    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
    Now I'm more confused. I thought you levelled the same atrocious transgressions against Israel
    I have never leveled anything against Israel or Judah in my entire life.

    which prompted me to point out that her sister Judah, wasn't far behind in disobedience to God?
    Judah was the worst of the two. It was Israel that was not too far behind.

    Jer 3:7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
    Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
    Jer 3:9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
    Jer 3:10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.
    Jer 3:11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

    Comment


    • Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

      Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post

      Second yes in your who are the Samaritans thread i pointed out that once more you were misusing the term "Jew" and that under no circumstances were the Samartians considered Jews.

      1. They were not from the tribe of Judah or the Southern Kingdom of Judah
      2. They do not practice Judaism
      3. They are not among the group that returned from the Babylonian exile.

      You never disputed any of the facts, nor have I backtracked from them. All I was trying to say was that in that dicussion in that thread the use of the term "Jew" is inappropriate, that a better question would be to ask if they were "Israelites". During my research on the topic, I learned that the Sarmatians were actually considered "Hebrews" something personally I did not know before.

      Second your "challenge" as I stated their and will state again here is overall Irrelevant, No one to Date has claimed that the Samaritans are the 10 lost tribes of Israel, they the Samaritans claim lineage from the tribe of Ephraim and tribe of Manasseh (two sons of Joseph) as well as from the Levites.

      Lastly you are rendering Ezra 1:5b Incorrectly the passage says: "everyone whose spirit God had stirred to go up to rebuild the house of the LORD that is in Jerusalem". Grammatically, once the principal Jews (tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levite) have been mentioned, any reference to others, in this case, "
      You are fairly accurate here. I would like to point out that on point 2, they actually tried to practice Judaism but it was mixed with their pagan rituals of their homeland. Assyria imported other people when they carried off the Northern tribe. They became mock Jews in order to stave off lions that were troubling them.

      They also claim to be from Ephraim, Manasseh and others but they were not really. For both these reasons the Southern tribe resented these Samaritans. They resented them calling themselves brethren. Your research should have stated they thought themselves "Hebrews" instead of "they were considered."
      John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

      Comment


      • Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

        Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
        1. I said in your "Who are the Samaritan's" thread I pointed out that once more you were misusing the term "Jew" and that under no circumstances were the Samaritans considered Jews.

        You responded with this 1. Kindly quote me or retract the claim that I said the Samaritans were Jews. Where in my statement did I claim that you said the Samaritans are Jews?

        2. You literally started out the thread asking if the Samaritans were Jews or Gentiles. https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...20#post3509820

        3. Incorrect my first point in your thread was to say that the question of the thread should be "whether or not the Samaritans are Gentiles or Israelites". https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...24#post3509824

        4. Please produce the posts where you believe I claimed the Samaritans were or are Isreal, should be easy for you to do, so I wait with eager expectation

        I see no reason to offer my opinion on the subject if you believe every "Jew "that was exiled to Babylon returned and not just those "whose spirit God had stirred to go up to rebuild the house of the LORD that is in Jerusalem". That's fine with me, personally, whenever I try to help correct the errors you constantly put forth you always end up going farther into error in some vain attempt to be Right (your primary focus).
        In post #3 you said:

        Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
        So if they worship the God of the Hebrew Bible and claim ancestry from Jacob, how are they Not Israelites?
        Again in post #49:

        Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
        Either 1. The Samaritans were considered Israelites (Although NOT JEWS). Or 2. Jesus Did preach directly to the Gentiles. You choose
        And again post #87:

        Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
        You can say the Samaritans are of Israelite descent
        Yet again post #92:

        Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
        they as a people group, however, do claim ancestry from Jacob which would to me make them Israelites
        There are many more, but these should suffice. You make a claim today and deny it tomorrow when you're outed.

        You also gleefully declared:

        Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
        Please produce the posts where you believe I claimed the Samaritans were or are Isreal, should be easy for you to do, so I wait with eager expectation: thumbsup:
        Hopefully, these few citations prove that your claim that the Samaritans are "Israel" is not something I made up.

        Comment


        • Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
          I have never leveled anything against Israel or Judah in my entire life.

          Judah was the worst of the two. It was Israel that was not too far behind.

          Jer 3:7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
          Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
          Jer 3:9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
          Jer 3:10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.
          Jer 3:11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
          Very well, let's not pursue it further.

          Comment


          • Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

            Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
            In post #3 you said: Again in post #49:
            And again post #87:
            Yet again post #92: There are many more, but these should suffice. You make a claim today and deny it tomorrow when you're outed.
            You also gleefully declared:
            Hopefully, these few citations prove that your claim that the Samaritans are "Israel" is not something I made up.
            Sorry, none of these posts from me seem to be claiming that the Samaritans are Israel. But It does show your inability to read and comprehend what others say to you.

            Lets review

            1. in post. #3 I stated "So if they worship the God of the Hebrew Bible and claim ancestry from Jacob, how are they Not Israelites?"(Do you see the question mark there)?

            2. Post #49 Once more I asked *YOU* a question namely. Either 1. The Samaritans were considered Israelites (Although NOT JEWS). Or 2. Jesus Did preach directly to the Gentiles. You choose.

            3. Post #92 I said the if the Samaritans were from the Ancestry of Jacob they would to me be Israelites, Something I stand by.

            4. I was correcting someone who claimed the Samaritans were of Jewish descent, which they are NOT.

            I don't see in any of these posts a claim from me that the Samaritans are Israel. But I honestly have no problem making that Claim if you want me too?

            Also, the fact that you did not address my first 3 points I will take as an acknowledgment that they're true.

            Here is another quote from your Samaritan thread by me. https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...96#post3510196

            That's been my position your whole thread, namely "IF the Samaritans are truly descendants from Jacob" they should be considered Israelites, not Gentiles and not Jews. So far I've seen no evidence presented either way if Samaritans truely descend from Jacob.

            Comment


            • Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

              Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
              Sorry, none of these posts from me seem to be claiming that the Samaritans are Israel. But It does show your inability to read and comprehend what others say to you.

              Lets review

              1. in post. #3 I stated "So if they worship the God of the Hebrew Bible and claim ancestry from Jacob, how are they Not Israelites?"(Do you see the question mark there)?

              2. Post #49 Once more I asked *YOU* a question namely. Either 1. The Samaritans were considered Israelites (Although NOT JEWS). Or 2. Jesus Did preach directly to the Gentiles. You choose.

              3. Post #92 I said the if the Samaritans were from the Ancestry of Jacob they would to me be Israelites, Something I stand by.

              4. I was correcting someone who claimed the Samaritans were of Jewish descent, which they are NOT.

              I don't see in any of these posts a claim from me that the Samaritans are Israel. But I honestly have no problem making that Claim if you want me too?

              Also, the fact that you did not address my first 3 points I will take as an acknowledgment that they're true.

              Here is another quote from your Samaritan thread by me. https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...96#post3510196

              That's been my position your whole thread, namely "IF the Samaritans are truly descendants from Jacob" they should be considered Israelites, not Gentiles and not Jews. So far I've seen no evidence presented either way if Samaritans truely descend from Jacob.
              As you wish. I give up.

              Comment


              • Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                As you wish. I give up.
                You giving up wasn't my wish, from your thread I actually got my wish overall, you started asking people if the Samaritans were Israelites are Gentiles. Then later on from my point of view all of your questions were answered in this post here.

                Quote: In the Hebrew Bible the term Israelites is used interchangeably with the term Twelve Tribes of Israel. Although related, the terms Hebrews, Israelites, and Jews are not interchangeable in all instances. "Israelites" (Yisraelim) refers specifically to the direct descendants of any of the sons of the patriarch Jacob (later called Israel), and his descendants as a people are also collectively called "Israel", including converts to their faith in worship of the god of Israel, Yahweh. "Hebrews" (ʿIvrim), on the contrary, is used to denote the Israelites' immediate forebears who dwelt in the land of Canaan, the Israelites themselves, and the Israelites' ancient and modern descendants (including Jews and Samaritans). "Jews" (Yehudim) is used to denote the descendants of the Israelites who coalesced when the Tribe of Judah absorbed the remnants of various other Israelite tribes.

                End of Quote.

                *Objectively* what do you think about the Samaritans being Hebrews?

                Comment


                • Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

                  Originally posted by randyk View Post
                  That's false. A remnant of Israel has *always* existed to represent the people of Israel before God. The question, then, is, does this Christian remnant properly represent the hope of Israel to become a Christian theocracy and to become a favored nation of God again? I believe so. I believe that's the language of Scriptures.



                  I'm not sure what you're referring to, but Israel is a special nation in history, having been chosen to begin the process of international outreach and modelling the knowledge of God on earth. Not all nations have picked up this challenge after the failure of Israel. And those that have indeed accepted the challenge to become Christian nations have gone the way of Israel--they have also backslided, and apparently dropped out of the race for favored nation status temporarily.

                  I happen to believe that those who have responded to the call will be rewarded for their faithfulness. Those in a Christian nation who have prayed, who have obeyed God, who have cooperated in being part of God's program, will have descendants, just as Abraham did. There is yet hope for all nations who have fallen from their calling. The wicked will be cut off from those nations, leaving a remnant of faithful who will expand to become godly nations once again.
                  I was referring to the group. Earthly nations are a mixture of believers and unbelievers. It's the faithful throughout history that is God's chosen nation.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

                    Originally posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
                    You giving up wasn't my wish, from your thread I actually got my wish overall, you started asking people if the Samaritans were Israelites are Gentiles. Then later on from my point of view all of your questions were answered in this post here.

                    Quote: In the Hebrew Bible the term Israelites is used interchangeably with the term Twelve Tribes of Israel. Although related, the terms Hebrews, Israelites, and Jews are not interchangeable in all instances. "Israelites" (Yisraelim) refers specifically to the direct descendants of any of the sons of the patriarch Jacob (later called Israel), and his descendants as a people are also collectively called "Israel", including converts to their faith in worship of the god of Israel, Yahweh. "Hebrews" (ʿIvrim), on the contrary, is used to denote the Israelites' immediate forebears who dwelt in the land of Canaan, the Israelites themselves, and the Israelites' ancient and modern descendants (including Jews and Samaritans). "Jews" (Yehudim) is used to denote the descendants of the Israelites who coalesced when the Tribe of Judah absorbed the remnants of various other Israelite tribes.

                    End of Quote.

                    *Objectively* what do you think about the Samaritans being Hebrews?
                    I have no wish to go round in circles with you, that's what I mean. You said you got your wish? Good on you. Should I give candy too?

                    Comment


                    • Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

                      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                      I have no wish to go round in circles with you, that's what I mean. You said you got your wish? Good on you. Should I give candy too?
                      Sorry, if I offended you in some way, really just wished to share the research I thought you might be interested in and get your thoughts.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

                        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                        God spoke through Isaiah:

                        chapter 6:9 [FONT="]And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.[/FONT]10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

                        This became a recurring theme throughout the Bible; paraphrased by other OT prophets and NT Apostles. A lot has been said about this topic, but I'm hoping for a rethink and review of our understanding of our understanding of the passage.

                        My question therefore is, has this blindness of heart been removed from Israel or not? If you believe it has, what is your scriptural evidence? The same goes for those who believe it is not yet removed.
                        the Jews didnt seem to be blind at all in the days of Jesus and the 12 being as their were crowds of Jews that followed them everywhere, matter of fact the only Jews that seemed to be blind were the temple leadership, they may have made up one percent of the Jewish population and they were not even real Jews, they may have been Jews on the outside but their hearts were roman, real Jews with any influence over the people, like Zachariah were banished. also Jews continued to follow as when James the Just was killed the city almost went into revolt, the leadership had to make concessions to them to maintain control of Jerusalem. it wasnt until rome took over the faith that we see this big divider and separation between Judaism and Christianity, almost as if the Jews were driven away from the faith. if Christians think Jews are blind to the faith today they might want to take a closer look at them years between Jesus and the roman takeover of the faith and see what changed.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

                          Originally posted by jaybird View Post
                          if Christians think Jews are blind to the faith today they might want to take a closer look at them years between Jesus and the roman takeover of the faith and see what changed.
                          Israel is still blinded.

                          Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
                          Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
                          Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
                          Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
                          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

                            Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                            Israel is still blinded.

                            Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
                            Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
                            Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
                            Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
                            st Paul, the 12, John B, the crowds of believers, the berean Jews, etc, etc (how many examples do you need?), all Jews, they were not blind at all. dont think your understanding those passages correctly.

                            Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                            Israel is still blinded.

                            Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
                            Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
                            Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
                            Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
                            st Paul, the 12, John B, the crowds of believers, the berean Jews, etc, etc (how many examples do you need?), all Jews, they were not blind at all. dont think your understanding those passages correctly.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

                              Prophecy isn't an exact science. Often the best we can do is to take the best fit in context.

                              I see a pattern in the NT of a great victory of the gospel to the nations, followed by a precise 3.5 year period.

                              This great victory can be seen in Rev 12, the victory of our testimony, followed by 3.5 years. It can also be seen in Matthew 24, the success of the gospel in v14 is followed by the abomination, also associated with 3.5 years.

                              With this fullness or victory over the nations, preceding the final GT, it is easier to understand Romans 11

                              25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

                              I relate the fullness of the nations to that great victory of the gospel, 3.5 years before the end.

                              So I believe that the blindness of Israel has not yet been removed, they are still blind in part, but blindness will be removed during that final GT.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

                                Originally posted by jaybird View Post
                                st Paul, the 12, John B, the crowds of believers, the berean Jews, etc, etc (how many examples do you need?), all Jews, they were not blind at all. dont think your understanding those passages correctly.
                                The majority of Jews have been blind and remain blind. There's nothing that should be misunderstood about those facts. The scripture in my previous post prove this.
                                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                                Comment

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