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  • #76
    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Originally posted by journeyman View Post
    Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his descendant. Scripture does not say, "and to the descendants," referring to many, but "and to your descendant," referring to one, who is Christ. Gal.3:16
    God spoke to Abraham on many occasions in which several promises were made. But Gal 3:16 which you quoted is certainly not about the promise of Land! See below.

    Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
    10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
    11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
    12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
    13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
    14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
    15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
    16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
    17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.


    Apologies for the long scripture, but I'd rather let the Bible argue for me otherwise you won't believe me. Now, before we get to v-16 we need to backtrack to the earlier verses to get the context. Paul was explaining how God included the Gentiles (verse 8) in his redemptive plan from the beginning. Unlike Israel who had the law, Paul showed how the Gentiles who didn't have the law required faith to partake from the Abrahamic Promise.

    Throughout the theme, Paul set out to contrast the approach through the law and that of faith and went on to declare that "no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, but the just shall live by faith" v-11. Since Abraham is long dead, Paul pointed out that the fulfilment of the promise was actualised in Jesus, the seed of Abraham through the Jewish bloodline -v16. Also see Eph 2:12.

    He went further to argue that the Covenant/Promise (inclusion of Gentiles through Christ) which God made to Abraham stands sure that the law given 430 years later could not disannul it. Now, compare Gal 3:16 with the actual land promise in Genesis.

    Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

    The condition God gave for the land inheritance is circumcision. And true to his word, God delivered when the exodus from Egypt entered into Canaan. There is NO FUTURE LAND INHERITANCE!!!

    Comment


    • #77
      Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post


      Yet despite your agreement, you made a 360 degree turn to assert that *a Jewish Christian is no longer a Jew*.
      I said no longer a Jew in the religious sense.



      Hopefully, you see how confusing your ever-changing position is?
      My position has been the same. You just keep misunderstanding what I am saying.
      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

      Comment


      • #78
        Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
        God spoke to Abraham on many occasions in which several promises were made. But Gal 3:16 which you quoted is certainly not about the promise of Land! See below.

        Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

        9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
        10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
        11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
        12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
        13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
        14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
        15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
        16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
        17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.


        Apologies for the long scripture, but I'd rather let the Bible argue for me otherwise you won't believe me. Now, before we get to v-16 we need to backtrack to the earlier verses to get the context. Paul was explaining how God included the Gentiles (verse 8) in his redemptive plan from the beginning. Unlike Israel who had the law, Paul showed how the Gentiles who didn't have the law required faith to partake from the Abrahamic Promise.

        Throughout the theme, Paul set out to contrast the approach through the law and that of faith and went on to declare that "no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, but the just shall live by faith" v-11. Since Abraham is long dead, Paul pointed out that the fulfilment of the promise was actualised in Jesus, the seed of Abraham through the Jewish bloodline -v16. Also see Eph 2:12.

        He went further to argue that the Covenant/Promise (inclusion of Gentiles through Christ) which God made to Abraham stands sure that the law given 430 years later could not disannul it. Now, compare Gal 3:16 with the actual land promise in Genesis.

        Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

        The condition God gave for the land inheritance is circumcision. And true to his word, God delivered when the exodus from Egypt entered into Canaan. There is NO FUTURE LAND INHERITANCE!!!
        Heb.11 tells us the people who after Moses did not inherit the promised land God gave Abraham. It tells us Abraham's desire was for a heavenly country and God has made for him a city. That's the new Jerusalem. There is no inheritance apart from Jesus (Gal.3:18) There is no relationship to Abraham apart from Jesus (Mt.3:9, Jn.8:39).

        Blindness is done away in Christ (Jn.9:39). This idea that God began gathering his people back to "their homeland" (?) in the 1940's isn't true. God gathers his people from the 4 winds (destruction and death). God saves us from these destroying angels through Jesus.

        Comment


        • #79
          Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

          Originally posted by journeyman View Post
          This idea that God began gathering his people back to "their homeland" (?) in the 1940's isn't true.
          Then who exactly populates the country of Israel since 1948? That is the homeland of the Israelites according to the bible.
          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

          Comment


          • #80
            Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

            Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
            Then who exactly populates the country of Israel since 1948? That is the homeland of the Israelites according to the bible.
            They should call themselves Judah as that was what constitutes the Southern Kingdom. They have no right to the name Israel.
            John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

            Comment


            • #81
              Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

              Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
              Then who exactly populates the country of Israel since 1948? That is the homeland of the Israelites according to the bible.
              Believers and unbelievers.

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                I said no longer a Jew in the religious sense.
                Well, a Jewish convert remains a *Jew* albeit a Christian. There's no such thing as not being a Jew "in a religious sense" because the one that believes remains a Jew (in ethnicity) and a Christian (in religion). So you can see how your "not being a Jew in a religious sense" don't add up?

                My position has been the same. You just keep misunderstanding what I am saying.
                I very much understand what you are saying, I just don't agree with it.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

                  Originally posted by journeyman View Post
                  Heb.11 tells us the people who after Moses did not inherit the promised land God gave Abraham. It tells us Abraham's desire was for a heavenly country and God has made for him a city. That's the new Jerusalem. There is no inheritance apart from Jesus (Gal.3:18) There is no relationship to Abraham apart from Jesus (Mt.3:9, Jn.8:39).

                  Blindness is done away in Christ (Jn.9:39). This idea that God began gathering his people back to "their homeland" (?) in the 1940's isn't true. God gathers his people from the 4 winds (destruction and death). God saves us from these destroying angels through Jesus.
                  A problem arises when you conflate the physical land God promised to Abraham's descendants which were fulfilled when they entered into Canaan with the Promise of the spiritual holy city in the resurrection. Some of the prophets in Heb 11 lived in the promised land during their lifetime on earth, but the theme of Heb 11 is about their faith in the heavenly Jerusalem. And since they didn't inherit the holy city in their lifetime they confessed in v-13 that they were "strangers and pilgrims" on earth.

                  If you take time to understand someone's perspective, it is possible you might realise there's really no dissent with your own position.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

                    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                    Then who exactly populates the country of Israel since 1948? That is the homeland of the Israelites according to the bible.
                    Can't wait to hear the answer on this one.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

                      Originally posted by Deade View Post
                      They should call themselves Judah as that was what constitutes the Southern Kingdom. They have no right to the name Israel.
                      It's unfortunate you took this view.

                      1. Assyria, where those from the northern kingdom were taken to, fell to the Babylonians who in turn, capitulated to the Persians. I don't need to remind you that these kingdoms were constantly warring with each other? So by the time the Persian king (Cyrus) came to the throne, Assyria and Babylon were vassals controlled by Persia.
                      2. The scripture says that when Cyrus said the Jews should go home and rebuild their nation - the commandment was for "Jews throughout his kingdom" which now comprises of former Assyria and Babylon.
                      3. By this time, the majority of those alive were born in captivity and didn't really understand the dichotomy between their forebears when they lived in divided kingdoms in their homeland. Being one people bound by the "Law", it is arguable that this generation born in captivity (both Israel and Judah) saw themselves as ONE. The implication is that it is therefore impossible to argue that the returnees were 100% from Judah.
                      4. But most importantly, the division between the southern and northern kingdoms ended with the captivity. So the name "Israel" for the modern population is befitting.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

                        Originally posted by journeyman View Post
                        Believers and unbelievers.
                        I agree they are made up of believers and unbelievers. But which nationality/ethnic are they?

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

                          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                          Well, a Jewish convert remains a *Jew* albeit a Christian. There's no such thing as not being a Jew "in a religious sense" because the one that believes remains a Jew (in ethnicity) and a Christian (in religion). So you can see how your "not being a Jew in a religious sense" don't add up?
                          It obviously adds up since you affirm it in this reply, and then suddenly end the reply claiming it doesn't add up. A Jew who is a Christian is no longer a Jew in the religious sense, only a Jew in an ethnic sense. See how that adds up even using your own wording? (I bolded it)
                          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

                            Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                            It's unfortunate you took this view.

                            1. Assyria, where those from the northern kingdom were taken to, fell to the Babylonians who in turn, capitulated to the Persians. I don't need to remind you that these kingdoms were constantly warring with each other? So by the time the Persian king (Cyrus) came to the throne, Assyria and Babylon were vassals controlled by Persia.
                            2. The scripture says that when Cyrus said the Jews should go home and rebuild their nation - the commandment was for "Jews throughout his kingdom" which now comprises of former Assyria and Babylon.
                            3. By this time, the majority of those alive were born in captivity and didn't really understand the dichotomy between their forebears when they lived in divided kingdoms in their homeland. Being one people bound by the "Law", it is arguable that this generation born in captivity (both Israel and Judah) saw themselves as ONE. The implication is that it is therefore impossible to argue that the returnees were 100% from Judah.
                            4. But most importantly, the division between the southern and northern kingdoms ended with the captivity. So the name "Israel" for the modern population is befitting.
                            I am from Judah and I stand by what I said. The following is a Wikipedia entry:

                            The ten lost tribes were the ten of the Twelve Tribes of Israel that were said to have been deported from the Kingdom of Israel after its conquest by the Neo-Assyrian Empire circa 722 BCE.[1] These are the tribes of Reuben, Simeon, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Manasseh, and Ephraim. Claims of descent from the "lost" tribes have been proposed in relation to many groups,[2] and some religions espouse a messianic view that the tribes will return.
                            In the 7th and 8th centuries CE, the return of the lost tribes was associated with the concept of the coming of the messiah.[3]:58–62
                            The Jewish historian Josephus (37–100 CE) wrote that "the ten tribes are beyond the Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude and not to be estimated in numbers".[4]
                            According to the Bible, the Kingdom of Israel (or Northern Kingdom) was one of the successor states to the older United Monarchy (also called the Kingdom of Israel), which came into existence in about the 930s BCE after the northern Tribes of Israel rejected Solomon's son Rehoboam as their king. Nine landed tribes formed the Northern Kingdom: the tribes of Reuben, Issachar, Zebulun, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Ephraim, and Manasseh. In addition, some members of the Tribe of Levi, who had no land allocation, were found in the Northern Kingdom. The Tribes of Judah and Benjamin remained loyal to Rehoboam, and formed the Kingdom of Judah (or the Southern Kingdom). Members of Levi and the remnant of Simeon were also found in the Southern Kingdom.
                            According to 2 Chronicles 15:9, members of the tribes of Ephraim, Manasseh, and Simeon "fled" to Judah during the reign of Asa of Judah (c. 911–870 BCE). Whether these groups were absorbed into the population or remained distinct groups or returned to their tribal lands is not indicated.
                            In c. 732 BCE, the Assyrian king Tiglath-Pileser III sacked Damascus and Israel, annexing Aramea[6] and territory of the tribes of Reuben, Gad and Manasseh in Gilead including the desert outposts of Jetur, Naphish, and Nodab. People from these tribes, including the Reubenite leader, were taken captive and resettled in the region of the Khabur River system in Assyria/Mesopotamia. Tiglath-Pilesar also captured the territory of Naphtaliand the city of Janoah in Ephraim, and an Assyrian governor was placed over the region of Naphtali. According to 2 Kings 16:9 and 15:29, the population of Aram and the annexed part of Israel was deported to Assyria.
                            Israel continued to exist within the reduced territory as an independent kingdom subject to Assyria until around 725–720 BCE, when it was again invaded by Assyria and the rest of the population deported. The Bible relates that the population of Israel was exiled, leaving only the Tribe of Judah, the Tribe of Simeon (that was "absorbed" into Judah), the Tribe of Benjamin, and the people of the Tribe of Levi who lived among them of the original Israelite tribes in the southern Kingdom of Judah. However, Israel Finkelstein estimated that only a fifth of the population (about 40,000) were actually resettled out of the area during the two deportation periods under Tiglath-Pileser III, Shalmaneser V, and Sargon II.[7][page needed] Many also fled south to Jerusalem, which appears to have expanded in size fivefold during this period, requiring a new wall to be built, and a new source of water (Siloam) to be provided by King Hezekiah.[8] Furthermore, 2 Chronicles 30:1-11explicitly mentions northern Israelites who had been spared by the Assyrians—in particular, members of Dan, Ephraim, Manasseh, Asher, and Zebulun—and how members of the latter three returned to worship at the Temple in Jerusalem at that time.
                            The Hebrew Bible does not use the phrase "ten lost tribes", leading some to question the number of tribes involved. 1 Kings 11:31 states that the kingdom would be taken from Solomon and ten tribes given to Jeroboam:
                            And he said to Jeroboam, Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee.
                            ...
                            But I will take the kingdom out of his son's hand, and will give it unto thee, even ten tribes.
                            — 1 Kings 11:31,35
                            John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              It's unfortunate you took this view.

                              1. Assyria, where those from the northern kingdom were taken to, fell to the Babylonians who in turn, capitulated to the Persians. I don't need to remind you that these kingdoms were constantly warring with each other? So by the time the Persian king (Cyrus) came to the throne, Assyria and Babylon were vassals controlled by Persia.
                              2. The scripture says that when Cyrus said the Jews should go home and rebuild their nation - the commandment was for "Jews throughout his kingdom" which now comprises of former Assyria and Babylon.
                              3. By this time, the majority of those alive were born in captivity and didn't really understand the dichotomy between their forebears when they lived in divided kingdoms in their homeland. Being one people bound by the "Law", it is arguable that this generation born in captivity (both Israel and Judah) saw themselves as ONE. The implication is that it is therefore impossible to argue that the returnees were 100% from Judah.
                              4. But most importantly, the division between the southern and northern kingdoms ended with the captivity. So the name "Israel" for the modern population is befitting.
                              Show me where anyone in the northern kingdom was called a Jew.

                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              It's unfortunate you took this view.

                              1. Assyria, where those from the northern kingdom were taken to, fell to the Babylonians who in turn, capitulated to the Persians. I don't need to remind you that these kingdoms were constantly warring with each other? So by the time the Persian king (Cyrus) came to the throne, Assyria and Babylon were vassals controlled by Persia.
                              2. The scripture says that when Cyrus said the Jews should go home and rebuild their nation - the commandment was for "Jews throughout his kingdom" which now comprises of former Assyria and Babylon.
                              3. By this time, the majority of those alive were born in captivity and didn't really understand the dichotomy between their forebears when they lived in divided kingdoms in their homeland. Being one people bound by the "Law", it is arguable that this generation born in captivity (both Israel and Judah) saw themselves as ONE. The implication is that it is therefore impossible to argue that the returnees were 100% from Judah.
                              4. But most importantly, the division between the southern and northern kingdoms ended with the captivity. So the name "Israel" for the modern population is befitting.
                              Show me where anyone in the northern kingdom was called a Jew.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

                                Originally posted by percho View Post
                                Show me where anyone in the northern kingdom was called a Jew.

                                Col_3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

                                Paul uses the term "Jew" as anyone who is of any of the tribes of Israel.
                                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                                Comment

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